The Great Healthcare Debate

[Navy1960]

We once lived in a nation where it was the founding ideals that a man or woman could dare to dream and through hard work and live that dream.Yes, we have had many failings, but have learned over the years to change. We held their personal freedoms dear as we held our own dear. Even in wars, while we may have disagreed some of you shouted out in protest your feelings and did so knowing that you were exercising your freedoms to do so. What have we become? We have let our fears take hold of us and forgotten the most basic principle of this nation and one that so many have spilled blood the world over to defend and that is the right to enjoy our freedoms as individuals. We now look to a Govt. to provide all things for us and our neighbors even though they wish not to have it, because some see that equality is much more precious than freedom. What they do not realize is, they will never have true equality without the ability to respect honest disagreement and allow those that do not agree with them to exercise their freedoms.

Healthcare is the great debate at the moment, but while people lose their jobs, and americans are deployed in the defense of freedom the world over some would rush to the alter of Govt. to lay down the very freedoms Americans are fighting and dying for to replace it with comfort. This healthcare debate is not about providing healthcare for the masses, it is about allowing americans the choice to make the decision on their own as to how they will live their lives. While many may not agree with this and that is their right to disagree, what needs to be said here, is that the same respect should be accorded to those that disagree. That is the basis from which this nation was founded and not forcing your beliefs upon half the population that do not agree with you. Our president has taken it upon himself to usurp these freedoms from millions of Americans and does so because he believes that this nation should "change" into one that has less personal freedom and one where you should be ashamed to raise your head high if you dare to make something of yourself by your own hard work. After spending over 20 years in the United States Navy in the defense of my country I am disappointed in the direction in which many have chosen to take it, and while I respect each and every one of your rights to express yourselves as Americans perhaps you all should take a moment and pause to perhaps advocate giving that same respect to those who do not agree with you.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thank you for your service. I served on active duty more than a decade, and I think you are simply making right wing talking points. The great majority of Americans rightly believe that they were betrayed by the last administration's foreign adventurism, cultural irresponsibility, and corporatist leniency. The majority of Americans acted in the best of American interests -- they threw the sonsofguns out. If this administration demonstrates that it cannot turn the ship of state around, then it will be thrown out of office. But we are not going back to 2001 to 2006 anytime soon. Too many Americans were too badly burned by those folks and their policies.

 

[Navy1960]

Thank you for your service. I served on active duty more than a decade, and I think you are simply making right wing talking points. The great majority of Americans rightly believe that they were betrayed by the last administration's foreign adventurism, cultural irresponsibility, and corporatist leniency. The majority of Americans acted in the best of American interests -- they threw the sonsofguns out. If this administration demonstrates that it cannot turn the ship of state around, then it will be thrown out of office. But we are not going back to 2001 to 2006 anytime soon. Too many Americans were too badly burned by those folks and their policies.

First of all, you missed the point of my post almost completely, it was not advocating any "right wing" talking points, nor was it to express and idea that the desires of those so called "progressives" were not genuine. It was to point out that the debate on healthcare is a personal freedom issue to many Americans and those that advocate cultural equality when it comes to healthcare at the expense of freedom will end up having no equality or freedom. Further, while I respect those that wish the Govt. to provide them with healthcare as long as they pay for it, just do no force your wishes upon those who wish to make their own choices in thise large quest for cultural norming. I do not believe my post had any mention of corporate interests or any opnion as to their actions as well. In fact , I have posted here many times and my consistant opnion on this matter has always been to let corporations like any business large and small succeed or fail on their own merits and the product in which they produce as long as it is a product that is sold from state to state should be subjected to proper regulation. If the corporation fails then their has always been an avenue in which that corporation should go and thats bankruptcy court not the Federal Govt. or your wallet or mine. However, all that being said, my original posting has more to do with forced norming as it applies to this all out healthcare push when those that do not want it which is 50% of nation more depending on which poll you believe. I wanted to point out while those that wish this healthcare bill so badly and wish to be respected for that postion , should simply take pause and give the same respect to those that disagree with that postition. In doing so , you might jsut end up with the healthcare reform you so desire and have it at your own expense as well.

 

[Big Black Dog]

Thank you for your service. I served on active duty more than a decade, and I think you are simply making right wing talking points. The great majority of Americans rightly believe that they were betrayed by the last administration's foreign adventurism, cultural irresponsibility, and corporatist leniency. The majority of Americans acted in the best of American interests -- they threw the sonsofguns out. If this administration demonstrates that it cannot turn the ship of state around, then it will be thrown out of office. But we are not going back to 2001 to 2006 anytime soon. Too many Americans were too badly burned by those folks and their policies.

What exactly do you mean when you say too many Americans were too badly burned by those folks and their policies? Exactly what is it that the Bush Administration did you personally that "burned" you? Be specific. If you are making the point that you feel Bush was not truthful to the American public how do you compare him to the current President? To me, Obama is the biggest liar I have ever seen in politics. He's single handily destroying America. Why is it that you can't see this?

 

[veritas]

I think we have to have healthcare for all in order to be able to compete. Let's face it, we haven't done much lately, we don't make much and what we do make is undercut by our competitors or it's just plain crap. People are working just to have healthcare. Innovation is nowhere. Something has to change. Healthcare has to be untied from employment.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thank you for your service. I served on active duty more than a decade, and I think you are simply making right wing talking points. The great majority of Americans rightly believe that they were betrayed by the last administration's foreign adventurism, cultural irresponsibility, and corporatist leniency. The majority of Americans acted in the best of American interests -- they threw the sonsofguns out. If this administration demonstrates that it cannot turn the ship of state around, then it will be thrown out of office. But we are not going back to 2001 to 2006 anytime soon. Too many Americans were too badly burned by those folks and their policies.

First of all, you missed the point of my post almost completely, it was not advocating any "right wing" talking points, nor was it to express and idea that the desires of those so called "progressives" were not genuine. It was to point out that the debate on healthcare is a personal freedom issue to many Americans and those that advocate cultural equality when it comes to healthcare at the expense of freedom will end up having no equality or freedom. Further, while I respect those that wish the Govt. to provide them with healthcare as long as they pay for it, just do no force your wishes upon those who wish to make their own choices in thise large quest for cultural norming. I do not believe my post had any mention of corporate interests or any opnion as to their actions as well. In fact , I have posted here many times and my consistant opnion on this matter has always been to let corporations like any business large and small succeed or fail on their own merits and the product in which they produce as long as it is a product that is sold from state to state should be subjected to proper regulation. If the corporation fails then their has always been an avenue in which that corporation should go and thats bankruptcy court not the Federal Govt. or your wallet or mine. However, all that being said, my original posting has more to do with forced norming as it applies to this all out healthcare push when those that do not want it which is 50% of nation more depending on which poll you believe. I wanted to point out while those that wish this healthcare bill so badly and wish to be respected for that postion , should simply take pause and give the same respect to those that disagree with that postition. In doing so , you might jsut end up with the healthcare reform you so desire and have it at your own expense as well.

Yes, sir, you are pushing the right wing. Your points are invalid, have proven unworkable, and have been harmful to the American public. Now move along, please.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thank you for your service. I served on active duty more than a decade, and I think you are simply making right wing talking points. The great majority of Americans rightly believe that they were betrayed by the last administration's foreign adventurism, cultural irresponsibility, and corporatist leniency. The majority of Americans acted in the best of American interests -- they threw the sonsofguns out. If this administration demonstrates that it cannot turn the ship of state around, then it will be thrown out of office. But we are not going back to 2001 to 2006 anytime soon. Too many Americans were too badly burned by those folks and their policies.

What exactly do you mean when you say too many Americans were too badly burned by those folks and their policies? Exactly what is it that the Bush Administration did you personally that "burned" you? Be specific. If you are making the point that you feel Bush was not truthful to the American public how do you compare him to the current President? To me, Obama is the biggest liar I have ever seen in politics. He's single handily destroying America. Why is it that you can't see this?

BBD is asking for facts? The one who never gave them, at least honest ones. BBD, bark on, baby.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Healthcare has to be untied from right wing and corporatist talking points.

Their day in the sun is over.

 

[Navy1960]

Let me see, what point exactly was invalid, that polls indicated that 50% plus depending on which one you happen to trust show that most Americans do not wish the type of reform being proposed by the democrats? Please explain how that point is invalid, as perhaps you have access to the pulse of the nation that every polling company does not have access too. As for the corporate issue, if my points were invalid, then perhaps companies like, WorldCom, Texaco, Eastern Airlines, and oh yes Enron would have gotten those bailouts prior to their demise through bankruptcy. The point is that none of what i posted was invalid, it was the expressed desire that many Americans treasure freedom as much as you wish to have your Govt. provide healthcare for you. While you may not agree with it, it does not render their opinions invalid it simply means they are exercising the same voice you are and if they are invalid by your logic so then are you. Not everyone that disagree's with this healthcare reform happens to be a right wing advocate as are most progressive not liberals in the true sense of the word. As i said earlier, if you desire healthcare provided by the Government then by all means , pay for it, but do not mandate those that wish to make that choice for themselves to do so also, simply because you and others think you know best whats good for them, because you have forgetten what it means to live in a nation that is bound by freedom.

 

[mdn2000]

The only health care reform we need is to get the government fingers out, its the government of the last twenty years passing law and ignoring law that has created this mess and now they are here to fix it. Both side are guilty.

Power and control, both sides want it, and everyday no matter which side wins or loses they take more power and control over our lives well they get richer, and richer.

Now the Republicans are the good guys, right, time to clean house, the entire house.

 

[Ame®icano]

I wrote this on another HC thread but it fits here perfectly:

Under "general welfare" government is trying to sneak in every aspect of our lives. Do we really want the government to have the authority to require citizens to buy health insurance?

As first, I enjoy having the right to choose for myself what I will spend my hard-earned money on. Most people in their twenties don't really need health insurance, is it not their right to not buy health insurance and perhaps put that money into a mutual fund or some other investment, for instance?

As second, if bill that requires all citizens to be insured is passed, and if imposes a fine for refusal, and then the fine is not payed, imprisonment will follow. That's ridiculous!!! It pisses me of that an American citizen could land in jail for not buying health insurance for himself.

If government gets involved into healthcare, what choice do we have, really? I am not talking about choice in between private and public option. It's about choice to have another government chain around our necks or not.

Someone who chose not to have insurance did not infringe on anyone else's rights, nor endanger anyone else. At the other side, someone who chose not to have insurance and use emergency room caused everyone else pay more since hospitals raised the prices to compensate.

To fix the problem, liberal solution to prevent people from subsidizing other people's health care is to require people to subsidize other people's health care. Genius solution, all they have to do is to sell it to us.

What happen to personal responsibility?

 

[Ame®icano]

Watch the video... it's about healthcare bill, but also about all the other bills.

This one is showing John Conyers basically saying the bill is too complicated. It's 1,000 pages & he asked what good is reading it if you don't understand it? He makes a reasonable point, but ultimately it's not about not reading the bill, it's about not being able to understand it without a couple of lawyers to help him out.

Two questions... how anyone can vote on the bill without reading it, and how anyone can vote on the bill without understanding it?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACbwND52rrw]YouTube - John Conyers on Reading the Healthcare Bill[/ame]

 

[Bfgrn]

We once lived in a nation where it was the founding ideals that a man or woman could dare to dream and through hard work and live that dream.Yes, we have had many failings, but have learned over the years to change. We held their personal freedoms dear as we held our own dear. Even in wars, while we may have disagreed some of you shouted out in protest your feelings and did so knowing that you were exercising your freedoms to do so. What have we become? We have let our fears take hold of us and forgotten the most basic principle of this nation and one that so many have spilled blood the world over to defend and that is the right to enjoy our freedoms as individuals. We now look to a Govt. to provide all things for us and our neighbors even though they wish not to have it, because some see that equality is much more precious than freedom. What they do not realize is, they will never have true equality without the ability to respect honest disagreement and allow those that do not agree with them to exercise their freedoms.

Healthcare is the great debate at the moment, but while people lose their jobs, and americans are deployed in the defense of freedom the world over some would rush to the alter of Govt. to lay down the very freedoms Americans are fighting and dying for to replace it with comfort. This healthcare debate is not about providing healthcare for the masses, it is about allowing americans the choice to make the decision on their own as to how they will live their lives. While many may not agree with this and that is their right to disagree, what needs to be said here, is that the same respect should be accorded to those that disagree. That is the basis from which this nation was founded and not forcing your beliefs upon half the population that do not agree with you. Our president has taken it upon himself to usurp these freedoms from millions of Americans and does so because he believes that this nation should "change" into one that has less personal freedom and one where you should be ashamed to raise your head high if you dare to make something of yourself by your own hard work. After spending over 20 years in the United States Navy in the defense of my country I am disappointed in the direction in which many have chosen to take it, and while I respect each and every one of your rights to express yourselves as Americans perhaps you all should take a moment and pause to perhaps advocate giving that same respect to those who do not agree with you.

You don't have a say on the subject...you HAVE government healthcare...refuse your VA care Navy and buy into our deathcare lottery...all you need to do is pay your high premium year after year; then take your chances that all your responsible behavior will be returned if you get seriously ill or injured...by insurance corporations that pay incentives to workers that find a reason to DENY your claim...

 

[Old Rocks]

Navy, perhaps you should look at this;


65: Percentage of voters who believe that every American should have access to quality healthcare
22: Percentage of voters who disagree
12: Percentage of voters who aren't sure
80: Percentage who oppose providing healthcare for illegal immigrants
11: Percentage who support healthcare for illegal immigrants
22: Percentage of the uninsured 46 million who live in the U.S. illegally

Poll: Americans Favor Universal Healthcare, Just Not for Illegal Immigrants - US News and World Report

 

[Navy1960]

We once lived in a nation where it was the founding ideals that a man or woman could dare to dream and through hard work and live that dream.Yes, we have had many failings, but have learned over the years to change. We held their personal freedoms dear as we held our own dear. Even in wars, while we may have disagreed some of you shouted out in protest your feelings and did so knowing that you were exercising your freedoms to do so. What have we become? We have let our fears take hold of us and forgotten the most basic principle of this nation and one that so many have spilled blood the world over to defend and that is the right to enjoy our freedoms as individuals. We now look to a Govt. to provide all things for us and our neighbors even though they wish not to have it, because some see that equality is much more precious than freedom. What they do not realize is, they will never have true equality without the ability to respect honest disagreement and allow those that do not agree with them to exercise their freedoms.

Healthcare is the great debate at the moment, but while people lose their jobs, and americans are deployed in the defense of freedom the world over some would rush to the alter of Govt. to lay down the very freedoms Americans are fighting and dying for to replace it with comfort. This healthcare debate is not about providing healthcare for the masses, it is about allowing americans the choice to make the decision on their own as to how they will live their lives. While many may not agree with this and that is their right to disagree, what needs to be said here, is that the same respect should be accorded to those that disagree. That is the basis from which this nation was founded and not forcing your beliefs upon half the population that do not agree with you. Our president has taken it upon himself to usurp these freedoms from millions of Americans and does so because he believes that this nation should "change" into one that has less personal freedom and one where you should be ashamed to raise your head high if you dare to make something of yourself by your own hard work. After spending over 20 years in the United States Navy in the defense of my country I am disappointed in the direction in which many have chosen to take it, and while I respect each and every one of your rights to express yourselves as Americans perhaps you all should take a moment and pause to perhaps advocate giving that same respect to those who do not agree with you.

You don't have a say on the subject...you HAVE government healthcare...refuse your VA care Navy and buy into our deathcare lottery...all you need to do is pay your high premium year after year; then take your chances that all your responsible behavior will be returned if you get seriously ill or injured...by insurance corporations that pay incentives to workers that find a reason to DENY your claim...

Your correct, I have Tri-Care one that was earned after giving more than 20 plus year of active duty service to this nation. It is a benefit that I "earned" as a result of that service not one that is given to me. While that may be hard for some to understand, it was not free. I have every right to comment on this issue as it applies to me , want to know why? because I also pay taxes in this nation and that gives me every right to comment on issues that apply to it. Further, as I have family members that including my daughter that will be impacted by this legislation that also gives me the right to comment on it, but most of all I am a citizen of this nation, and have every right to as long as I feel that legislation will havve a negative impact on my nation to comment on it. If the fact that I happen to have Tri-Care bothers you then I suggest you advocate that military retiree's have that taken away from them, but I don't think you will get too far on that. On a side note what you should know is that I am a firm advocate for healthcare reform, however, mandating healthcare coverage for all is not the way to accomplish it nor is spending more than a Trillion Dollars that this nation does not have when we can reform healthcare without doing so.

 

[Navy1960]

Navy, perhaps you should look at this;


65: Percentage of voters who believe that every American should have access to quality healthcare
22: Percentage of voters who disagree
12: Percentage of voters who aren't sure
80: Percentage who oppose providing healthcare for illegal immigrants
11: Percentage who support healthcare for illegal immigrants
22: Percentage of the uninsured 46 million who live in the U.S. illegally

Poll: Americans Favor Universal Healthcare, Just Not for Illegal Immigrants - US News and World Report

I read the poll , and can't say I disagee with it, why wouldn't someone want access to quailty healthcare? I would seem to me the main disagreement here is how we get there. I suppose it is how one reads the poll as to how they see the result on this one. I believe that people should have acess to low cost quality healthcare, in fact to be honest with you, as long as its not mandated, and people pay for themselves , I do not see any issues with on a personal level. My main contention with this is mandates for all, and also does the nation have the ability to pay for this right now if its is a Govt. run program. Personally I do not think we do, and that is why I think that this reform can be accomplished without a Govt. run program. Let me explain, Congress has the power under the constitution to regulate commerce for those businesses that operate inter-state. So then why not mandate that these providers that also are medicare contractors. which almost all of them are provide low cost entry level health insurance nationwide and provide tax incentives for low income people to purchase it? Just thinking outloud Rocks

 

[Bfgrn]

Navy, perhaps you should look at this;


65: Percentage of voters who believe that every American should have access to quality healthcare
22: Percentage of voters who disagree
12: Percentage of voters who aren't sure
80: Percentage who oppose providing healthcare for illegal immigrants
11: Percentage who support healthcare for illegal immigrants
22: Percentage of the uninsured 46 million who live in the U.S. illegally

Poll: Americans Favor Universal Healthcare, Just Not for Illegal Immigrants - US News and World Report

I read the poll , and can't say I disagee with it, why wouldn't someone want access to quailty healthcare? I would seem to me the main disagreement here is how we get there. I suppose it is how one reads the poll as to how they see the result on this one. I believe that people should have acess to low cost quality healthcare, in fact to be honest with you, as long as its not mandated, and people pay for themselves , I do not see any issues with on a personal level. My main contention with this is mandates for all, and also does the nation have the ability to pay for this right now if its is a Govt. run program. Personally I do not think we do, and that is why I think that this reform can be accomplished without a Govt. run program. Let me explain, Congress has the power under the constitution to regulate commerce for those businesses that operate inter-state. So then why not mandate that these providers that also are medicare contractors. which almost all of them are provide low cost entry level health insurance nationwide and provide tax incentives for low income people to purchase it? Just thinking outloud Rocks

Hey Navy...you're driving down the highway, another driver runs a stop sign and T-bones you, killing a family member and leaving you a quadriplegic...but take solace...that person decided to exercise their "personal freedom"...they opted not to buy car insurance...tough shit pal, welcome to your twisted America... I'm going to cancel my car insurance...

People that don't buy health insurance DO GET health CARE...they just let YOU and me PAY for it...

 

[Navy1960]

Navy, perhaps you should look at this;


65: Percentage of voters who believe that every American should have access to quality healthcare
22: Percentage of voters who disagree
12: Percentage of voters who aren't sure
80: Percentage who oppose providing healthcare for illegal immigrants
11: Percentage who support healthcare for illegal immigrants
22: Percentage of the uninsured 46 million who live in the U.S. illegally

Poll: Americans Favor Universal Healthcare, Just Not for Illegal Immigrants - US News and World Report

I read the poll , and can't say I disagee with it, why wouldn't someone want access to quailty healthcare? I would seem to me the main disagreement here is how we get there. I suppose it is how one reads the poll as to how they see the result on this one. I believe that people should have acess to low cost quality healthcare, in fact to be honest with you, as long as its not mandated, and people pay for themselves , I do not see any issues with on a personal level. My main contention with this is mandates for all, and also does the nation have the ability to pay for this right now if its is a Govt. run program. Personally I do not think we do, and that is why I think that this reform can be accomplished without a Govt. run program. Let me explain, Congress has the power under the constitution to regulate commerce for those businesses that operate inter-state. So then why not mandate that these providers that also are medicare contractors. which almost all of them are provide low cost entry level health insurance nationwide and provide tax incentives for low income people to purchase it? Just thinking outloud Rocks

Hey Navy...you're driving down the highway, another driver runs a stop sign and T-bones you, killing a family member and leaving you a quadriplegic...but take solace...that person decided to exercise their "personal freedom"...they opted not to buy car insurance...tough shit pal, welcome to your twisted America... I'm going to cancel my car insurance...

People that don't buy health insurance DO GET health CARE...they just let YOU and me PAY for it...

I'm well aware that some of the high costs of healthcare are reflected in emergency medicine for people who cannot otherwise afford healthcare. However, even with mandates on healthcare on the individual it will not change the costs associated with those people that still do not choose to have health insurance. The best way, to accomplish this is to make existing healthcare coverage more affordable to those that want it and need it. You used the car insurance anaology, well most states "REQUIRE" a person to have car insurance, however that does not stop them from driving without it, so what makes you think they will not go to an emergency room simply because they do not have mandatory coverage (a tax?, don't look for low income people to be moved by this too much.) One other issue here is a choice between personal freedom, or personal comfort. Some see the the issue of personal comfort more important than personal freedom. The people you see that are protesting mandatory coverage happen to be the one's on the other side, however I would not just assume that the great majority of them simply do not want reform. It's my opinion that reform can be accomplished and it need not be accomplished with mandating coverage or creating a new dept. within the Federal Govt. that we can not afford.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

It seems to me that Navy was simply expressing his opinion as an American. He was not being partisan, spewing talking points, or trashing either side of the debate.

The talking points didn't come into the thread until some members, who self-identify as liberals started posting.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Navy, perhaps you should look at this;


65: Percentage of voters who believe that every American should have access to quality healthcare
22: Percentage of voters who disagree
12: Percentage of voters who aren't sure
80: Percentage who oppose providing healthcare for illegal immigrants
11: Percentage who support healthcare for illegal immigrants
22: Percentage of the uninsured 46 million who live in the U.S. illegally

Poll: Americans Favor Universal Healthcare, Just Not for Illegal Immigrants - US News and World Report

Access to Quality healthcare does not equal Passing HR3200 or the Bacous Bill. It also doesn't equal a public option.

it means that a lot of americans, including myself, want everyone to be able to have good healthcare. This position of wanting all americans to be able to get quality healthcare is the EXACT reason I am agains the govt's currently proposed health care reforms, they wont do what the politicians are telling us the reforms will do.