The Great 2008 Collapse

[LordBrownTrout]

It was Clinton and the Rs who blew up the dam for trade with China and also Nafta. Our deficit problems have compounded from then.

what a pathetic partisan....

Huh?
Partisan? I have no idea of what you're talking about.

 

[snjmom]

What do you think Barney Frank meant when he said he had "ideological blinders" on when Fannie went down? He wanted it to happen because of his ideological differences with republicans and capitalism.

Barney's ideological blinders vis a vis the FM's concerned the "privitization" aspect of Fannie and Freddie that sought fewer restrictions on their ability to seek profits (ie their purchase of falsely rated MSB's) vs their supposed charter of affordable home loans for the less affluent.

CDO's and fake risk assessments and fake insurance policies are what ko'd our economy, not the CRA or the FM's. Greed and fraud. They are the economy killers. Gekko was wrong.

 

[georgephillip]

It was Clinton and the Rs who blew up the dam for trade with China and also Nafta. Our deficit problems have compounded from then.

After Bubba's successes with NAFTA and the repeal of Glass-Steagall, we're all lucky Monica and her blue dress showed up in time to save Social Security.

If fiscal conservatives and liberals can't find common ground around a $10 trillion increase for end-year 2018 debt, we're going to labor and wait a lot longer than even Longfellow could imagine.

"In early 2008, the CBO projected that debt as a percent of gross domestic product would fall from 36.8 percent to 22.6 percent at the end of 2018. In contrast, the latest CBO forecast has debt soaring to 75.3 percent of GDP in 2018.

"What caused this stunning reversal, which in dollar terms works out to a $10 trillion swing for end-year 2018 debt, from $5.1 trillion to $15.8 trillion?

"Almost all of this increase is due to the severe recession that followed the financial crisis of late 2008.

"This lowered output and employment, and therefore reduced tax revenue.

Revenue Drought

"For example, look at the tax revenue numbers for 2011, as a percent of GDP. The earlier expectation for 2011 was that the federal government would collect revenue equal to 19.3 percent of GDP.

"The forecast now is for revenue of 14.8 percent of GDP..."

"Why did we have a severe recession with such a crippling fiscal consequences? On this issue, most politicians from both sides of the aisle fall silent."

Another good reason to FLUSH as many Republicans AND Democrats from DC as possible starting in November 2012.

Fiscal Conservatives Dodge $10 Trillion Debt: Simon Johnson - Bloomberg

 

[Mr. Shaman]

The financial crisis of 2008 should have changed your mind about something. From Wiki:

.....And, WHAT is it that Republicans/"conservatives"/Teabaggers keep tellin' everyone (ELSE) about....

"Accepting Responsibility For YOUR OWN Actions."????

January 13, 2008​

"The recession-deniers were muzzled by a horrendous last two weeks of December, and the gloom-and-doomers are now out in force. Their key arguments:

* Plummeting housing will now drag down the rest of the economy.

*The "bad debt" problem is not just "sub-prime" folks who should never have have taken out mortgages in the first place. It includes credit card debt, "high quality" mortgages, car loans, and other leverage that have recently become a consumer way of life.

*Pressure on consumers is leading to a reduction in consumer spending (70% of economy), which, in turn, will lead to a reduction in spending by companies that sell stuff to consumers.

*The question now is not "will there be a recession?" but "how bad will it get?"

*The most optimistic forecasts in a NYT gloom-and-doom round-up are for three crappy quarters, regardless of what the Fed does. Less optimistic forecasts suggest that we are, well, screwed.

After blowing the last downturn, we've been worried this one since last summer (see below). We also suspect that, given the importance of housing to the economy and debt to consumer spending, the recession will be deeper and more prolonged than people think."

"U.S. Economy Screwed"​

Ask the question why we had such a severe recession with such crippling fiscal consequences and Republicans AND Democrats go mute.

Yeah......who'd have expected a recession, right??

November 13, 2000​

"Bush's top economic advisor Martin Anderson admitted that his Social Security plan would force the trust fund to borrow as much as $3 TRILLION. Bush has promised the same $1 TRILLION currently in the Social Security to old folks and to young people. He can't give the money to both. Al Gore asked Bush which group would get what. This is a critically important question."

America Cannot Afford Bush​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

October 17, 2000​

"In this campaign, George W. Bush promises to slash taxes and regulation to promote economic growth. These claims rest on a fundamentally wrong understanding of recent history concerning "Supply Side" economics and their assumptions about the way the world works. Some still credit Reagan's policies for the current economic boom. In fact, his policies failed badly twenty years ago. If George W. Bush were to implement them in 2001, they would almost certainly cause serious harm to the economy.

We still must pay $200 BILLION per year in interest on the national debt, thanks in large part to Reagan's political victory which was an economic Waterloo, and that's not even counting the costs of paying back the debt itself! GW Bush's call for a return to Reaganomics would only cripple this expansion, prevent good government policies which promote prosperity, and bury us beneath more debt."

Déjà Voodoo All Over Again?​

Where Were The TEABAGGERS??!!!

​

 

[georgephillip]

Which political party was in the majority when the collapse happened? The first thing on the democrat agenda (aside from seroid use in baseball) when they gained the majority in both houses was the ruination of the financial system starting with the collapse of Fannie Mae which was supervised by congress. What do you think Barney Frank meant when he said he had "ideological blinders" on when Fannie went down? He wanted it to happen because of his ideological differences with republicans and capitalism. Democrats let it happen to pave the way for the "hope and change" of socialism.

"The federal takeover of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac refers to the placing into conservatorship of government sponsored enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by the U.S. Treasury in September 2008.

"It was one financial event among many in the ongoing subprime mortgage crisis."

That subprime mortgage crisis the FBI had been warning about since the mid-90s, on Bubba's watch.

Republicans AND Democrats are responsible for our current economy. You're spinning your wheels if you think it's about politics.

It is about socializing cost and privatizing profit for the benefit of the richest 1% of Americans, AND both major parties take turns making it happen.

"Choosing" between Democrat OR Republican at the polls changes nothing.

 

[georgephillip]

Which political party was in the majority when the collapse happened? The first thing on the democrat agenda (aside from seroid use in baseball) when they gained the majority in both houses was the ruination of the financial system starting with the collapse of Fannie Mae which was supervised by congress. What do you think Barney Frank meant when he said he had "ideological blinders" on when Fannie went down? He wanted it to happen because of his ideological differences with republicans and capitalism. Democrats let it happen to pave the way for the "hope and change" of socialism.

Yes, and Bush was relying on some people who were not in the country's economical best interests.

I believe there has been more alarm raised about potential unsafty and unsoundness [of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac] than, in fact, exists."- Barney Frank... 9/25/2003

The more people, in my judgment, exaggerate a threat of safety and soundness, the more people conjure up the possibility of serious financial losses to the Treasury, which I do NOT see. Barney Frank---9/11/ 2003

I want to roll the dice a little bit more in this situation towards subsidized housing."--Barney Frank---9/25/2005

"These two entities--Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac---are not facing any kind of financial crisis." Barney Frank -- 9/11/2003

"Fannie and Freddie are fundamentally sound, they are not in danger of going under----I do think their prospects of going forward are very solid." -- Barney Frank-- 7/14/2008

Barney deserves to draw his last breath in prison along with hundreds of other elected/appointed Democrats and Republicans.

The inflation and collapse of the housing bubble could not have happened without massive fraud, and so far no one's been held accountable.

I think Bush, Clinton and Obama relied/rely on people who serve the interest of about 1% of all Americans. And as the gap between the rich and the rest widens in this country, there's little doubt about which side Republicans AND Democrats in DC are choosing.

 

[georgephillip]

And this is exactly why we should have cut taxes even more for the wealthy, so they could create more jobs for us poor folk.

And win the Lottery?

No Lottery?
No deal!

btw, the rich are creating plenty of jobs but they all require learning Mandarin and swimming a long, damn way.

Personally, I vote for raising their taxes and confiscating their citizenship if they take their money and desert their country.

While I agree with you on what you have stated and shown, I can't quite agree on you with this point. However, it should be listened to, because the truth is as the disparity between rich and poor continues to grow and the middle class is wiped out, this could well be the end result. When the masses become poor, they rebel. We have seen this over and over throughout history. Having a super elite class within society eventually leads to revolution.

I don't think the US Constitution would permit taking citizenship from those who leave for greener financial pastures, at least in its current edition.

You're right about rebellion, imho.
Can you imagine Syria coming to Syracuse?

"Syrian security forces fired on funeral processions that drew tens of thousands Saturday, one day after the bloodiest crackdown so far in the uprising against President Bashar Assad.

"The shootings pushed the two-day death toll to more than 120 and two lawmakers and a religious leader resigned in disgust over the killings."

At some point the gap between the rich and the rest of Americans will widen until a social vacuum develops.

Since nature abhors all vacuums, what's the likely consequence in a continental superpower with more private guns than citizens?

120 dead after 2 days of unrest in Syria - Yahoo! News

 

[georgephillip]

The financial crisis of 2008 should have changed your mind about something. From Wiki:

"The output of goods and services produced by labor and property located in the United States—decreased at an annual rate of approximately 6% in the fourth quarter of 2008 and first quarter of 2009, versus activity in the year-ago periods.[180]

"The U.S. unemployment rate increased to 10.1% by October 2009, the highest rate since 1983 and roughly twice the pre-crisis rate.

"The average hours per work week declined to 33, the lowest level since the government began collecting the data in 1964.[181][182]

"The very rich lost relatively less in the crisis than the remainder of the population, widening the divide between the economic classes. Thus the top 1% who had a share of 34.6% of the nation's wealth in 2007 increased their share to 37.1% by 2009."

The richest 1% of Americans then demanded taxpayer bailouts to ensure their "fair share" of the nation's wealth weren't compromised, and Republicans and Democrats in congress were happy to comply.

What consequences did the crisis and bailout have on our level of national debt?

"In early 2008, the CBO projected that debt as a percent of gross domestic product would fall from 36.8 percent to 22.6 percent at the end of 2018.

"In contrast, the latest CBO forecast has debt soaring to 75.3 percent of GDP in 2018.

"What caused this stunning reversal, which in dollar terms works out to a $10 trillion swing for end-year 2018 debt, from $5.1 trillion to $15.8 trillion?

"Almost all of this increase is due to the severe recession that followed the financial crisis of late 2008.

"This lowered output and employment, and therefore reduced tax revenue."

The financial crisis of 2008 should have changed some conservative minds about how big business, big government and the richest 1% of Americans collaborate to socialize cost and privatize profits.

Fiscal Conservatives Dodge $10 Trillion Debt: Simon Johnson - Bloomberg

And this is exactly why we should have cut taxes even more for the wealthy, so they could create more jobs for us poor folk.

Yeah.....they've done such a great job (at that), over the last ten years.

"Exporting America

"Since 2001, the nation has lost more than 2.5 million manufacturing jobs and more than 850,000 professional service and information sector jobs.

"No one knows for sure how many of these jobs have been lost due to increased import competition and shifts in production abroad, since no comprehensive official data are collected.

"Various independent estimates indicate the number of white-collar jobs lost to shipping work overseas over the past few years is in the hundreds of thousands and millions are at risk in the next five to ten years.

"But the number of jobs lost need not be overwhelming in order to concern policymakers: increased overseas outsourcing also undermines wages and working conditions in those jobs left behind and threatens the long-term health of the economy."

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/exportingamerica/outsourcing_problems.cfm

I can't find the source right now, but only the last decade of the Soviet Union exceeds the job toll the US has experienced since "lil Dumbya's" lil brother handed him the White House.

Can't wait for Mitt...? (or Jeb??)

 

[georgephillip]

What do you think Barney Frank meant when he said he had "ideological blinders" on when Fannie went down? He wanted it to happen because of his ideological differences with republicans and capitalism.

Barney's ideological blinders vis a vis the FM's concerned the "privitization" aspect of Fannie and Freddie that sought fewer restrictions on their ability to seek profits (ie their purchase of falsely rated MSB's) vs their supposed charter of affordable home loans for the less affluent.

CDO's and fake risk assessments and fake insurance policies are what ko'd our economy, not the CRA or the FM's. Greed and fraud. They are the economy killers. Gekko was wrong.

"In other words, the financial crisis will end up causing government debt to increase by more than 50 percent of GDP over a decade.

"This is the major fiscal crisis of today and our likely tomorrow (for more on this, see this column)."

Is S&P’s Deficit Warning On Target? « The Baseline Scenario

 

[georgephillip]

October 17, 2000​

"In this campaign, George W. Bush promises to slash taxes and regulation to promote economic growth. These claims rest on a fundamentally wrong understanding of recent history concerning "Supply Side" economics and their assumptions about the way the world works. Some still credit Reagan's policies for the current economic boom. In fact, his policies failed badly twenty years ago. If George W. Bush were to implement them in 2001, they would almost certainly cause serious harm to the economy.

We still must pay $200 BILLION per year in interest on the national debt, thanks in large part to Reagan's political victory which was an economic Waterloo, and that's not even counting the costs of paying back the debt itself! GW Bush's call for a return to Reaganomics would only cripple this expansion, prevent good government policies which promote prosperity, and bury us beneath more debt."

Déjà Voodoo All Over Again?​

Where Were The TEABAGGERS??!!!

​

"Privatizing the Planet

"... The peak of U.S. power was after World War II, when it had literally half the world's wealth. But that naturally declined, as other industrial economies recovered from the devastation of the war and decolonization took its agonizing course.

"By the early 1970s, the U.S. share of global wealth had declined to about 25%, and the industrial world had become tripolar: North America, Europe, and East Asia (then Japan-based).

"There was also a sharp change in the U.S. economy in the 1970s, towards financialization and export of production.

"A variety of factors converged to create a vicious cycle of radical concentration of wealth, primarily in the top fraction of 1% of the population -- mostly CEOs, hedge-fund managers, and the like.

"That leads to the concentration of political power, hence state policies to increase economic concentration: fiscal policies, rules of corporate governance, deregulation, and much more.

"Meanwhile the costs of electoral campaigns skyrocketed, driving the parties into the pockets of concentrated capital, increasingly financial: the Republicans reflexively, the Democrats -- by now what used to be moderate Republicans -- not far behind."

Is the World Too Big to Fail? | Common Dreams

 

[editec]

That the USA was bound to cease being the industrial engine of the world post WWII was pretty much inevitable.

That the USA went from the world's largest ceditor nation to the world's largest debtor nation?

That was BY DESIGN.

Nice work partisans.

You guys are the enablers of the class of people who sought to hoist you on the petards of your own partians POVs.

Fools!

 

[georgephillip]

That the USA was bound to cease being the industrial engine of the world post WWII was pretty much inevitable.

That the USA went from the world's largest ceditor nation to the world's largest debtor nation?

That was BY DESIGN.

Nice work partisans.

You guys are the enablers of the class of people who sought to hoist you on the petards of your own partians POVs.

Fools!

"The great economic fight of our epoch is being waged by the FIRE sector – Finance, Insurance and Real Estate – against the industrial economy and consumers.

"Its objective is to maximize property prices and the volume of debt relative to what labor and industry are able to earn."

War and debt are how governments socialize cost and privatize profit for a fortunate few.

At some point, I believe, conservative eyes will open, and then our biggest problem will be controlling their rage. (In a country with ~200 million private guns).

Michael Hudson: The Next Big Bail Out

 

[Mr Liberty]

all of our problems stem from 2008 and wall street.
Yet people still defend them as if they are not the bad guys in all of this. They want to lower their taxes as if they will help them out. they won't in reality.

there is a reason we call it greed. These people like greed and power and dont want to share it with the common folk. Sadly gop/teaparty members dont even see that and defend them till the end, not knowing those same people would walk over their fallen bodies if given the chance.

Pawns

You're right that the housing bubble was caused by greed. We are all greedy. No one buys a lottery ticket to support the state.

Wall street operates on greed and fear. I trade on it and have felt both.

The politicians operate on greed and fear. Telling everyone that there was a "new" right to own a house. Threatening the financial institutions with law suits for red lining. Creating a way for poor people to own homes gets votes, telling people the hard truth, doesn't

The people who bought a home operated on greed and fear. accepting something for nothing often ends up with bad consequences.

People who bought a home suffered for their bad financial decision. Corporations should never have been allow to get too big to fail. Bail outs should not be allowed. Politicians should not win reelections for creating all of this. Everyone involved should be held accountable. The harm they did to us all is unfair.

 

[georgephillip]

all of our problems stem from 2008 and wall street.
Yet people still defend them as if they are not the bad guys in all of this. They want to lower their taxes as if they will help them out. they won't in reality.

there is a reason we call it greed. These people like greed and power and dont want to share it with the common folk. Sadly gop/teaparty members dont even see that and defend them till the end, not knowing those same people would walk over their fallen bodies if given the chance.

Pawns

You're right that the housing bubble was caused by greed. We are all greedy. No one buys a lottery ticket to support the state.

Wall street operates on greed and fear. I trade on it and have felt both.

The politicians operate on greed and fear. Telling everyone that there was a "new" right to own a house. Threatening the financial institutions with law suits for red lining. Creating a way for poor people to own homes gets votes, telling people the hard truth, doesn't

The people who bought a home operated on greed and fear. accepting something for nothing often ends up with bad consequences.

People who bought a home suffered for their bad financial decision. Corporations should never have been allow to get too big to fail. Bail outs should not be allowed. Politicians should not win reelections for creating all of this. Everyone involved should be held accountable. The harm they did to us all is unfair.

If Goldman Sachs goes the way of Lehman Bros, would you vote against bail-outs?

Could Goldman Sachs Fail? « The Baseline Scenario

 

[percysunshine]

I guess people are finally figuring out that Obama is a fascist.

Obama's actions place him with Mussolini as far as preferring a corporate-state alliance.

It's too early to be sure how Obama would react if 90% of Americans begin pushing him to his left in the same way FDR was in the 1930s.

Do you see any Huey Long-like politicians out there?

Only in Baton Rouge and Chicago.

 

[georgephillip]

I guess people are finally figuring out that Obama is a fascist.

Obama's actions place him with Mussolini as far as preferring a corporate-state alliance.

It's too early to be sure how Obama would react if 90% of Americans begin pushing him to his left in the same way FDR was in the 1930s.

Do you see any Huey Long-like politicians out there?

Only in Baton Rouge and Chicago.

"No jobs, no prospects, no leverage, no short-term solutions, no long-term plans, no big ideas to save us. While the bottom four-fifths struggle to stay afloat, and the upper one-fifth cautiously tread water, the top one-percent continue to accumulate wealth at a staggering rate."

There doesn't seem to be a lack of need for Huey today.

Why do you think no one is stepping up?

David Macaray: Why Not Declare Class War and be Done With It

 

[percysunshine]

Addendum: I want to add Vegas and Atlantic City. Heck, Trumps mug shot is at the bottom of this page...

 

[snjmom]

The politicians operate on greed and fear. Telling everyone that there was a "new" right to own a house. Threatening the financial institutions with law suits for red lining. Creating a way for poor people to own homes gets votes, telling people the hard truth, doesn't

The people who bought a home operated on greed and fear. accepting something for nothing often ends up with bad consequences.

The hard truth is that poor people didn't cause this.

The entire federal government (including Fannie and Freddie) owned or guaranteed only 32 percent of seriously delinquent loans despite holding 67 percent of all mortgages. “Private-label” mortgage-backed securities ~ snip ~ generated only 13 percent of outstanding loans but was responsible for 42 percent of serious delinquencies.

Link

Alt A loans were fraud, pure and simple, made to feed the maw of the unregulated casino that is the derivatives market. As long as you got your origination fees and Wall St bought the debt and sold it to those suckers, who gave a shit if you bring down the house. Poor people getting FHA, VA, CRA loans didn't kill the housing industry, fraud and greed did. Flippers on interest only, brokers promising to re-fi you into a fixed rate when the AR kicks in. Speculators that hallucinated that housing would never stop rising. These were the folks that did it on the loan origination end, not poor people.

As of the second quarter of 2010, FHA loans had a serious
delinquency rate of 8.4 percent, as compared to 28.3 percent for actual subprime
loans and 6.8 percent for prime conforming loans.

Link

And we want to keep the titans free from contributing a greater share to the country that bends over then doesn't press charges.

 

[Intense]

The financial crisis of 2008 should have changed your mind about something. From Wiki:

"The output of goods and services produced by labor and property located in the United States—decreased at an annual rate of approximately 6% in the fourth quarter of 2008 and first quarter of 2009, versus activity in the year-ago periods.[180]

"The U.S. unemployment rate increased to 10.1% by October 2009, the highest rate since 1983 and roughly twice the pre-crisis rate.

"The average hours per work week declined to 33, the lowest level since the government began collecting the data in 1964.[181][182]

"The very rich lost relatively less in the crisis than the remainder of the population, widening the divide between the economic classes. Thus the top 1% who had a share of 34.6% of the nation's wealth in 2007 increased their share to 37.1% by 2009."

The richest 1% of Americans then demanded taxpayer bailouts to ensure their "fair share" of the nation's wealth weren't compromised, and Republicans and Democrats in congress were happy to comply.

What consequences did the crisis and bailout have on our level of national debt?

"In early 2008, the CBO projected that debt as a percent of gross domestic product would fall from 36.8 percent to 22.6 percent at the end of 2018.

"In contrast, the latest CBO forecast has debt soaring to 75.3 percent of GDP in 2018.

"What caused this stunning reversal, which in dollar terms works out to a $10 trillion swing for end-year 2018 debt, from $5.1 trillion to $15.8 trillion?

"Almost all of this increase is due to the severe recession that followed the financial crisis of late 2008.

"This lowered output and employment, and therefore reduced tax revenue."

The financial crisis of 2008 should have changed some conservative minds about how big business, big government and the richest 1% of Americans collaborate to socialize cost and privatize profits.

Fiscal Conservatives Dodge $10 Trillion Debt: Simon Johnson - Bloomberg

Yep. How much were we paying for a gallon of gas back then? What is happening again as we play here now? Connect the dots.