The Gospel of Unbelief

[jillian]

Secularism is a set of beliefs much as a Religion is. That is an old argument, don't really want to get into it. You just have to admit that there is a group of secularist people in this country who are pushing for their "set of beliefs" which are contrary to the "set of beliefs" of ordinary God-fearing citizens.

Such citizens are always free to follow their own hearts, minds and consciences without imposing limitations on those who don't agree with them.

How about Planned Parenthood for starters? Or the money poured into gay programs? Why should tax-paying Christians pay for these things? Why shouldn't some of *their* tax money go into Christian groups instead? You want to play favorites?

How *about* Planned Parenthood. It's not a religious organization, nor is it preaching that Christians should be forced to use birth control or have abortions. Nor is any money being spent to advance a gay agenda, while government resources HAVE been used to advance an anti-gay agenda.

As for tax money. Everyone's money is used for stuff they might not endorse. Tell ya what, though, you can earmark your taxes as not being available to Planned Parenthood if I can earmark mine so my money isn't diverted to Iraq.

I think that's a fair tradeoff. Don't you?

"furthing the status of any religious group"? What you really mean is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" don't you? This does not necessarily mean that taxes can't be allocated to help out religious groups who are helping society in general.

Not if the funds given are given solely or predominantly to a particular religious group.... If such funds are allocated to all religious groups, I have no problem with it.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Such citizens are always free to follow their own hearts, minds and consciences without imposing limitations on those who don't agree with them.



How *about* Planned Parenthood. It's not a religious organization, nor is it preaching that Christians should be forced to use birth control or have abortions. Nor is any money being spent to advance a gay agenda, while government resources HAVE been used to advance an anti-gay agenda.

As for tax money. Everyone's money is used for stuff they might not endorse. Tell ya what, though, you can earmark your taxes as not being available to Planned Parenthood if I can earmark mine so my money isn't diverted to Iraq.

I think that's a fair tradeoff. Don't you?



Not if the funds given are given solely or predominantly to a particular religious group.... If such funds are allocated to all religious groups, I have no problem with it.

You just don't want the christian church to have any meaningful role in society because you're a paranoid jew.

 

[jillian]

I wouldn't care, as long as I was still legally allowed to practice and discuss my religion.

And I'm sure you'd love for your kids to have to say muslim prayers in school everyday.

 

[LOki]

Exactly. Such as the Secularist dogma of the ACLU and other Left wing extremists who are basically coming from a Communist orientation. They are as back-door as you can get.

AND

Secularism is a set of beliefs much as a Religion is. That is an old argument, don't really want to get into it. You just have to admit that there is a group of secularist people in this country who are pushing for their "set of beliefs" which are contrary to the "set of beliefs" of ordinary God-fearing citizens.

Nonsense.

Communists (at least Soviet and Chinese style) are atheists, and atheism is faith based; a religion--secularism is not. Secularism in governemt protects religion, is not "contrary to the "set of beliefs" of ordinary God-fearing citizens," and is about as far from commuism as you can get. Get your facts, and your definitions, straight.

Oh, and BTW, while you're frothing rabidly on "left wing extremists," try reading up a little on your man Jesus--a socialist, a pinko, a left winger from way back.

Speaking of spending public money, why should we allow for government money to go just toward Secular programs?

Because governemt has no business funding religions--1st Amendment.

Why should the government take money from Christian people and then only allocate it to non-Christian agendas?

So secular government is now a non-Christian agenda? Be careful.

Isn't the government supposed to represent ALL the people, especially the majority?

Yes, and it is also obligated to protecting the minorities from the majorities. Otherwise the mob rules.

Why does the theocratic Christian right think that placing a statue of Jesus on the front lawn of a governemnt building cannot be construed by anyone in any manner as governmental endorsement of Christianity?

It COULD be construed by some ignorant person that way. That person just needs to have it explained to them real good.

Ignorant? It occurs to me that one would have to be rather ignorant of what religion is, that other religions exist, what the definition of endorse means, and who Jesus was, to avoid the conclusion. So, why don't you explain it "real good" for me, because I see government placing a statue of Jesus on the front lawn of a governemnt building as government endorsement of religion (Christianity in this case).

 

[jillian]

You just don't want the christian church to have any meaningful role in society because you're a paranoid jew.

Whoa! I don't think I every said what religion, if any, I follow.

Second, who's paranoid? I'd say it's the folk who think the grinch is stealing Christmas. So might want to rein that kind of thing in a bit.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

And I'm sure you'd love for your kids to have to say muslim prayers in school everyday.

That's over the line. But getting upset about decorations is hysteria.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Whoa! I don't think I every said what religion, if any, I follow.

Second, who's paranoid? I'd say it's the folk who think the grinch is stealing Christmas. So might want to rein that kind of thing in a bit.

What religion do you follow, if any?

You're paranoid. You decry christmas decorations as theocracy and defend your theocracy in the mideast, that's how I know you're a jew.

 

[jillian]

That's over the line. But getting upset about decorations is hysteria.

I agree that the fuss over "decorations" is ridiculous. I think it's nice to see everything at holiday time...regardless of the religion.

I agree also that having to say muslim prayers in school would be over the line. But perhaps you can see where folk who aren't Christian or who are athiest would think their kids having to say Christian prayers in school is over the line?

 

[MissileMan]

Do you have any idea how much you taxes would go up if religious people stopped donating to the poor??? You don't have any problem with religion paying to do government work do you?
The government could never afford to return the amount of money that churches have given freely to the sick and needy.

They sure as hell could if churches weren't tax exempt!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

But perhaps you can see where folk who aren't Christian or who are athiest would think their kids having to say Christian prayers in school is over the line?

Of course.
I like jappy girls by the way. They're sexy in a "you're not good enough" kind of way! shalom, jilly baby.

 

[jillian]

What religion do you follow, if any?

You're paranoid. You decry christmas decorations as theocracy and defend your theocracy in the mideast, that's how I know you're a jew.

See my post above. I, personally, have no problem with "decorations". We were talking about government favoritism of one religioius agenda over others. As for "my" theocracy in the Middle East, I'm fairly sure that Kathianne isn't Jewish or most of the others who defend Israel on this board. So there ya go.

And MY religious beliefs aren't particularly relevant to the debate.

 

[jillian]

Of course.
I like jappy girls by the way. They're sexy in a "you're not good enough" kind of way! shalom, jilly baby.

*sigh*

 

[rtwngAvngr]

See my post above. I, personally, have no problem with "decorations". We were talking about government favoritism of one religioius agenda over others. As for "my" theocracy in the Middle East, I'm fairly sure that Kathianne isn't Jewish or most of the others who defend Israel on this board. So there ya go.

And MY religious beliefs aren't particularly relevant to the debate.

I defend israel on this board, it's doesn't mean their internal policies are completely fair. Is it wrong to try to control the racial/socio/economic mix of your nation? Or is it only wrong when the U.S. does it re: immigration?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

*sigh*

That was a compliment!

 

[jillian]

I defend israel on this board, it's doesn't mean their internal policies are completely fair. Is it wrong to try to control the racial/socio/economic mix of your nation? Or is it only wrong when the U.S. does it re: immigration?

I don't think Israel is perfect at all. But you'd have heard way more criticism from me in Sharon's early days. Apples and oranges though when you talk about controlling the racial/socio/economic mix of the U.S. (Though I don't think I ever said I had a problem with enforcement of existing Immigration laws here, either... )

 

[jillian]

That was a compliment!

Sure it was, babe! lol....

Anyway, gotta run! Hometime! Yay!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Sure it was, babe! lol....

Anyway, gotta run! Hometime! Yay!

Some of my best friends are cute Jewish HausFraus!

 

[jillian]

Some of my best friends are cute Jewish HausFraus!

:happy2:

 

[MissileMan]

Secularism is a set of beliefs much as a Religion is. That is an old argument, don't really want to get into it. You just have to admit that there is a group of secularist people in this country who are pushing for their "set of beliefs" which are contrary to the "set of beliefs" of ordinary God-fearing citizens.

Secularism is nothing more than believing that there should be a separation of Church and state. Secularists have no interest in eradicating religion. They aren't involved in a conspiracy to erect a lawless, moral-less society. FYI, there are plenty of "God-fearing" Christian secularists...I believe there are a few regulars on this board who fit that category.

There is a far-left minority, on the opposite end of the spectrum from the Phelps, and Jackson, and Robertson who are rabidly anti-religious. Most secularists don't belong to that group.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

They aren't involved in a conspiracy to erect a lawless, moral-less society.

From where do secularists believe government should derive it's morals? As you said, they don't promote the eradication of morals.