The founding fathers, in their own words

[Luddly Neddite]

35 Founding Father Quotes Conservative Christians Will Hate -

The separation of church and state is one of the cornerstones of America’s foundation. Conservative Christian fundamentalists have sought to crush this cornerstone in the hopes of establishing Christianity as the state religion, an action that would threaten the rest of the foundation that makes up the Constitution. These conservatives contend that the Founding Fathers dreamed of making America a Christian state at the expense of those who practice other religions or none at all.

So here are 35 quotes from the Founding Fathers. Perhaps your first thoughts are the first four Presidents and maybe Benjamin Franklin, but there were many other Founding Fathers. Many were signers of the Constitution and The Declaration of Independence. They were lawyers, judges, soldiers, merchants, farmers, and some were even clergy. And the great majority of them signed the Constitution knowing that matters of government and matters of religion would be separate....

Right or left, do you "hate" these quotes? Agree with them? Disagree?

 

[Katzndogz]

The Founding Fathers did whatever they could to insure that government did not entangle itself with religious matters. It took a couple of hundred years before the idea failed.

 

[PaulS1950]

Has it yet failed?

I think not!

 

[Katzndogz]

It's in the process of failing now. Benjamin Franklin in his speech advocating the adoption of the Constitution told the founding fathers exactly how it would fail. He was right.

In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other

Speech of Benjamin Franklin - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net
That's the point where we are now. The people have become so corrupt as to be incapable of any form of government other than despotism.

John Adams said the same thing when he said:

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

We have neither morality nor religion. The Constitution is inadequate.

The founding fathers did not believe in universal freedom. They believed that freedom belonged only to a virtuous people.

"Human rights can only be assured among a virtuous people. The general government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, an oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any despotic or oppresive form so long as there is any virtue in the body of the people."
George Washington

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government."
Thomas Jefferson

". . . Virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor, my friend, and this alone that renders us invincible. These are the tactics we should study. If we lose these, we are conquered, fallen indeed . . . so long as our manners and principles remain sound, there is no danger."
Patrick Henry

"Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom. No free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue; and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles."
Patrick Henry

The enemy of the people is dependency. The more dependent we are on a government to provide for us the more corrupt we become.

"Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition."
Thomas Jefferson

We are at the end. The end the Founders knew would someday come.

 

[jwoodie]

XXXXXX The First Amendment was a ban on a State Religion (e.g., Church of England) and you know it. What "religion" is threatening to take over the US? Do you think the Mormons are going to team up with the Baptists and Roman Catholics? The only one I can think of is Atheism, which was an anathema to the founding fathers you selectively quote.

 

[whitehall]

Cherry picked quotations from the Founding Fathers are interesting but unless they are part of the Constitution they are just quotations. The 1st Amendment established freedom of religion. FDR's appointed supreme court justice and former member of the KKK established restrictions on freedom of religion with a the "separation church/state" concept that is not found in the Constitution.

 

[Katzndogz]

Thomas Jefferson first mentioned the separation of church and state in his letter to the Danbury Baptists when they voiced concern that the government would interfere in religious worship. That was the wall, not to keep religion out of government, but to keep government out of religion. It was always expected that those who go into government service would be religious people.

 

[PaulS1950]

Government can't establish or show preference for one religion over another nor can it prevent the free exercise of any religion. Religion or the lack of it is more than "tolerated" it is encouraged by the government. You can openly pray in public as long as others are not obliged to participate or confront it. Preachers can preach openly in public - regardless of the religion. Preachers are not allowed to preach a partisan political view while "on the pulpit" but are free to express their political beliefs to others as an individual.

The supportive documents to the constitution spell out what is meant in the first amendment. Those documents are indeed part of the law and used by the supreme court as findings of fact in cases. Just as there is a difference between the coding of laws and the actual enforcement of that law. Most states have a code that contains the message of a law that is passed and then the law as it is enforced. One without the other would be difficult to enforce in the courts.
In the state of Washington there is the Washington Administrative Code (WAC) which lists the purpose and intent of the legislation and then there is the Revised Code of Washington (RCW) which is the law as it is enforced.
The "administrative code" of the USA is contained in the supporting documents and the constitution and the "revised code" is the actual laws that are passed and enforced. When an action is challenged on constitutionality the judges use all the information to be sure that past cases (case law) and the supporting documents agree that the action follows the intent as well as the letter of the law and that it does not disagree with the intent and the letter of the constitution.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Yeah, gov't can't prevent free exercise of religion or stop take away your free speech rights. But they CAN institute Political Correctness (A Soviet Term) through the Public School System to get YOU to voluntarily waive those rights!

 

[Intense]

James Madison on Religion.

Religious Freedom Page: Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, James Madison (1785)

 

[Intense]

35 Founding Father Quotes Conservative Christians Will Hate -

The separation of church and state is one of the cornerstones of America’s foundation. Conservative Christian fundamentalists have sought to crush this cornerstone in the hopes of establishing Christianity as the state religion, an action that would threaten the rest of the foundation that makes up the Constitution. These conservatives contend that the Founding Fathers dreamed of making America a Christian state at the expense of those who practice other religions or none at all.

So here are 35 quotes from the Founding Fathers. Perhaps your first thoughts are the first four Presidents and maybe Benjamin Franklin, but there were many other Founding Fathers. Many were signers of the Constitution and The Declaration of Independence. They were lawyers, judges, soldiers, merchants, farmers, and some were even clergy. And the great majority of them signed the Constitution knowing that matters of government and matters of religion would be separate....

Right or left, do you "hate" these quotes? Agree with them? Disagree?

I think that your premise is flawed. We celebrate Individual Liberty and cherish it. For each of us, should anything dictate, let it be conscience. Why fight so hard to destroy conscience?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

35 Founding Father Quotes Conservative Christians Will Hate -

The separation of church and state is one of the cornerstones of America’s foundation. Conservative Christian fundamentalists have sought to crush this cornerstone in the hopes of establishing Christianity as the state religion, an action that would threaten the rest of the foundation that makes up the Constitution. These conservatives contend that the Founding Fathers dreamed of making America a Christian state at the expense of those who practice other religions or none at all.

So here are 35 quotes from the Founding Fathers. Perhaps your first thoughts are the first four Presidents and maybe Benjamin Franklin, but there were many other Founding Fathers. Many were signers of the Constitution and The Declaration of Independence. They were lawyers, judges, soldiers, merchants, farmers, and some were even clergy. And the great majority of them signed the Constitution knowing that matters of government and matters of religion would be separate....

Right or left, do you "hate" these quotes? Agree with them? Disagree?

I have a few questions for you in order for me to understand exactly what it is you want to discuss here.

1. Why do you start debates with fallacies?
2. Which conservative Christians want smash the separation between church and state and make Christianity the state religion?
3. Which version of Christianity do they plan to make the state religion.
4. How is an individual asserting their right to be a Christian, or a Muslim, a violation of the church and state?
5. If Keith Ellison prays in his office does that tear a whole in your wall?

If you actually want to prove that your intent is to discuss the issues you raised feel free to answer my post. If, on the other hand, you prefer to prove I am right that you only post in this forum so that you do not have to actually defend yourself, feel free to pretend I am not trying to discuss this with you.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

35 Founding Father Quotes Conservative Christians Will Hate -

The separation of church and state is one of the cornerstones of America’s foundation. Conservative Christian fundamentalists have sought to crush this cornerstone in the hopes of establishing Christianity as the state religion, an action that would threaten the rest of the foundation that makes up the Constitution. These conservatives contend that the Founding Fathers dreamed of making America a Christian state at the expense of those who practice other religions or none at all.

So here are 35 quotes from the Founding Fathers. Perhaps your first thoughts are the first four Presidents and maybe Benjamin Franklin, but there were many other Founding Fathers. Many were signers of the Constitution and The Declaration of Independence. They were lawyers, judges, soldiers, merchants, farmers, and some were even clergy. And the great majority of them signed the Constitution knowing that matters of government and matters of religion would be separate....

Right or left, do you "hate" these quotes? Agree with them? Disagree?

I think that your premise is flawed. We celebrate Individual Liberty and cherish it. For each of us, should anything dictate, let it be conscience. Why fight so hard to destroy conscience?

Please quote my exact words where I stated any premise at all.

And, those who say I "cherry picked", I did no such thing. If anyone has a problem with which quotes are stated in the OP, write to the author of the article.

Thank you.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

35 Founding Father Quotes Conservative Christians Will Hate -

The separation of church and state is one of the cornerstones of America’s foundation. Conservative Christian fundamentalists have sought to crush this cornerstone in the hopes of establishing Christianity as the state religion, an action that would threaten the rest of the foundation that makes up the Constitution. These conservatives contend that the Founding Fathers dreamed of making America a Christian state at the expense of those who practice other religions or none at all.

So here are 35 quotes from the Founding Fathers. Perhaps your first thoughts are the first four Presidents and maybe Benjamin Franklin, but there were many other Founding Fathers. Many were signers of the Constitution and The Declaration of Independence. They were lawyers, judges, soldiers, merchants, farmers, and some were even clergy. And the great majority of them signed the Constitution knowing that matters of government and matters of religion would be separate....

Right or left, do you "hate" these quotes? Agree with them? Disagree?

I have a few questions for you in order for me to understand exactly what it is you want to discuss here.

1. Why do you start debates with fallacies?
2. Which conservative Christians want smash the separation between church and state and make Christianity the state religion?
3. Which version of Christianity do they plan to make the state religion.
4. How is an individual asserting their right to be a Christian, or a Muslim, a violation of the church and state?
5. If Keith Ellison prays in his office does that tear a whole in your wall?

If you actually want to prove that your intent is to discuss the issues you raised feel free to answer my post. If, on the other hand, you prefer to prove I am right that you only post in this forum so that you do not have to actually defend yourself, feel free to pretend I am not trying to discuss this with you.

Are you asking me these questions? Or, are you talking to the author of the article?

Where did your questions came from? I did not "start a debate with fallacies", wouldn't even begin to know that much about the beliefs of various members of the religious right (nor do I want to!)and your last points simply make no sense.

If you are asking me, know that I have no intention of spending that much time on your questions. I don't mean to insult you but this is simply not a venue where I would do that. Back when I first started posting here but that's one of those lessons most of us learn early on.

 

[hortysir]

It's in the process of failing now. Benjamin Franklin in his speech advocating the adoption of the Constitution told the founding fathers exactly how it would fail. He was right.

In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other

Speech of Benjamin Franklin - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net
That's the point where we are now. The people have become so corrupt as to be incapable of any form of government other than despotism.

John Adams said the same thing when he said:

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

We have neither morality nor religion. The Constitution is inadequate.

The founding fathers did not believe in universal freedom. They believed that freedom belonged only to a virtuous people.

"Human rights can only be assured among a virtuous people. The general government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, an oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any despotic or oppresive form so long as there is any virtue in the body of the people."
George Washington

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government."
Thomas Jefferson

". . . Virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor, my friend, and this alone that renders us invincible. These are the tactics we should study. If we lose these, we are conquered, fallen indeed . . . so long as our manners and principles remain sound, there is no danger."
Patrick Henry

"Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom. No free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue; and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles."
Patrick Henry

The enemy of the people is dependency. The more dependent we are on a government to provide for us the more corrupt we become.

"Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition."
Thomas Jefferson

We are at the end. The end the Founders knew would someday come.

Thanks for the sig-line

 

[Quantum Windbag]

35 Founding Father Quotes Conservative Christians Will Hate -

Right or left, do you "hate" these quotes? Agree with them? Disagree?

I have a few questions for you in order for me to understand exactly what it is you want to discuss here.

1. Why do you start debates with fallacies?
2. Which conservative Christians want smash the separation between church and state and make Christianity the state religion?
3. Which version of Christianity do they plan to make the state religion.
4. How is an individual asserting their right to be a Christian, or a Muslim, a violation of the church and state?
5. If Keith Ellison prays in his office does that tear a whole in your wall?

If you actually want to prove that your intent is to discuss the issues you raised feel free to answer my post. If, on the other hand, you prefer to prove I am right that you only post in this forum so that you do not have to actually defend yourself, feel free to pretend I am not trying to discuss this with you.

Are you asking me these questions? Or, are you talking to the author of the article?

Where did your questions came from? I did not "start a debate with fallacies", wouldn't even begin to know that much about the beliefs of various members of the religious right (nor do I want to!)and your last points simply make no sense.

If you are asking me, know that I have no intention of spending that much time on your questions. I don't mean to insult you but this is simply not a venue where I would do that. Back when I first started posting here but that's one of those lessons most of us learn early on.

Did you make the post? If not, how did it appear under your name?

If yes, what are the points you want to discuss?

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I have a few questions for you in order for me to understand exactly what it is you want to discuss here.

1. Why do you start debates with fallacies?
2. Which conservative Christians want smash the separation between church and state and make Christianity the state religion?
3. Which version of Christianity do they plan to make the state religion.
4. How is an individual asserting their right to be a Christian, or a Muslim, a violation of the church and state?
5. If Keith Ellison prays in his office does that tear a whole in your wall?

If you actually want to prove that your intent is to discuss the issues you raised feel free to answer my post. If, on the other hand, you prefer to prove I am right that you only post in this forum so that you do not have to actually defend yourself, feel free to pretend I am not trying to discuss this with you.

Are you asking me these questions? Or, are you talking to the author of the article?

Where did your questions came from? I did not "start a debate with fallacies", wouldn't even begin to know that much about the beliefs of various members of the religious right (nor do I want to!)and your last points simply make no sense.

If you are asking me, know that I have no intention of spending that much time on your questions. I don't mean to insult you but this is simply not a venue where I would do that. Back when I first started posting here but that's one of those lessons most of us learn early on.

Did you make the post?

I didn't write the article. What I wrote was this:

Right or left, do you "hate" these quotes? Agree with them? Disagree?

That's it. That is all I wrote.

I'm just not up for this tonight.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Are you asking me these questions? Or, are you talking to the author of the article?

Where did your questions came from? I did not "start a debate with fallacies", wouldn't even begin to know that much about the beliefs of various members of the religious right (nor do I want to!)and your last points simply make no sense.

If you are asking me, know that I have no intention of spending that much time on your questions. I don't mean to insult you but this is simply not a venue where I would do that. Back when I first started posting here but that's one of those lessons most of us learn early on.

Did you make the post?

I didn't write the article. What I wrote was this:

Right or left, do you "hate" these quotes? Agree with them? Disagree?

That's it. That is all I wrote.

I'm just not up for this tonight.

The quotes are not what you posted, you posted a claim that conservative Christians want to destroy the separation between church and state. Why did you post that if you did not intend to discuss it or defend it?

 

[whitehall]

The Founding Fathers were voracious writers, especially Jefferson, and they no doubt felt free to discuss their petty biased opinions of one religion or the next in private correspondence but they managed to come together when the time came and write the greatest document the world had ever seen. Apparently concepts of freedom of religion and the press weighed heavily on their minds when they crafted the Bill of Rights because the very first Amendment lists the freedoms of religion and the press. The FDR appointed Justice Hugo Black was hardly a Founding Father but the former KKK member, raised with a hatred for Papists, wrote the majority decision which is the basis of the modern version of separation church/state which does not exist in the Constitution.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Did you make the post?

I didn't write the article. What I wrote was this:

Right or left, do you "hate" these quotes? Agree with them? Disagree?

That's it. That is all I wrote.

I'm just not up for this tonight.

The quotes are not what you posted, you posted a claim that conservative Christians want to destroy the separation between church and state. Why did you post that if you did not intend to discuss it or defend it?

I never said anything of the kind and what I quoted is exactly what I wrote.