The Five Stages of Collapse

[AVG-JOE]

The differences between the U.S. and the Soviet Union far out weigh the similarities. I believe that though we have the beginnings of a collapse here, our ability to respond will be much faster and better than that of the Soviet Union.

Several things make a significant difference:

First, the U.S. has no culture, other than consumerism and greed, so there's no such thing really as a cultural collapse. We'll adopt a new culture very quickly. Even one of personal integrity if we really, really have to.

Second, we 'snap' just as stated in the article. In fact, we 'snap' so quickly that we can become an entirely different country almost instantaneously.

Thirdly, we've already had our 'Political' collapse. We call it an election.

Fourth, if you're as old as me, you know that we are a nation of ideological cameleons. This gives us and our government the ability to respond to changes rapidly.

Fifth, we are not a pain tolerant nation. We have no stoicism whatsoever. This means that we will react very early to any percieved problems. We're scaredy-cats.

Sixth, the ability of the government and people to analyze is far beyond the ability of any other culture.

Seventh, our women are a bunch of disloyal, sexual cameleons that in a single mass will abandon any fallen male stereotypes and idealize whatever they percieve as the new male ideal. Thus reinforcing and providing support for whatever the new idiom may be. (Hey, I know this one is weird...but it's true!)

Finally, there is one aspect of American culture that is uniquely American and has seen us through many a crisis and that is: INNOVATIVE THINKING.

I sincerely hope you are right.

I defintiely agree that our society is somewhat more nimble than the Soviet.

But sadly the nimbleness is mostly granted to the ruling class (few workers are very nimble because we don't hav ethe resources to radically change our long term debt structure).

When I went down economically, it took me and my family years to reinvent out lives to accomodate our economic circumstances.

When ten or twnety or fifty or two hundred million people go down it's going to be hard as hell for them to make the changes since they'll all be ALSO dealing with the fact that stuff stopped working.

I hope you're right, but I think you're wrong.

Here is the trouble and the triumph... you're both right and you're both wrong.

Americans, public and private, are not all anything.

Certainly there will be violence and chaos, but not everyone will be shot.

Certainly there will be economic turmoil and tragedy, especially on individual levels, and certainly neighbor will turn on neighbor, but people will also feed strangers.

The best thing about the coming hard times is the shift in priorities that they will foment.

Wal-Mart may not sell quite as much rubber dog shit from China as their stockholders would like, but Christmas is going to come and children will smile.

-Joe

 

[Navy1960]

After having to put up with years upon years of Russian boasting over Military prowess and having the privledge or rather the ability see first hand what the boast was as measured to the reality and after having read the article, I mark this down to even more Russian *wishful thinking* which has marked their attitude towards the United States for years. It reminds me of of the story of the Russian so called super plane the Mig-25 Foxbat that back in the early 70's the Russians were running about saying it meant the end of US Air power. Well that was until a defector was kind enough to land one on a US Military base in Asia and once again we had the chance to see for ourselves the difference. The Soviet system was a system built on complete bullshit and the end result was seen the world over and as the current regime in Moscow had all of their ties to that failed systems it is no surprise that this wishful thinking continues.

 

[editec]

You people are great laughs. Can tell almost no one here has ever lived through really bad recession or years of "misery indexes"....

.

Lad, I've been living though one recession after the other since 69 when I left home and started supporting myself.

This is isn't like the others, not by a long shot.

You'll see I'm right sooner or later.

I'm hoping much later, but I am not counting on it.

You shouldn't either.

 

[Paulie]

You people are great laughs. Can tell almost no one here has ever lived through really bad recession or years of "misery indexes"....

There is nothing going on today that isn't entirely NORMAL. You have extreme excesses and the correction is going to be extreme. Bills always come due, those are called recessions. We are having one. But it is NOT the collapse of American or Western civilization.

The primary difference between us and most societies in the world is the primacy of INDIVIDUAL and our high value (other than some of the kooks that populate this forum) on SELF RELIANCE. Soviet society never had any of that.

Where is the correction? Since there seems to be no limit of money being thrown at the problem, how is the market possibly going to correct itself?

We're on our way to 3x as much national debt as there was only 8 years ago.

I doubt a lot of the baby boomers or even gen-x'ers will even SEE the correction before they DIE.

 

[editec]

Where is the correction? Since there seems to be no limit of money being thrown at the problem, how is the market possibly going to correct itself?

We're on our way to 3x as much national debt as there was only 8 years ago.

I doubt a lot of the baby boomers or even gen-x'ers will even SEE the correction before they DIE.

See? We can find something to agree on 100%, Paul.

You are exactly right.

This is not our fathers' recession.

Not even close.

The question is, can the masters prevent this mess from becoming our grandfathers' recession?

I got to tell you I do not think they KNOW they can.

Now when FDR took over in 33 the unemployment was 25%.

He started his NRA trip and got it down to about 17%, then somebody talked him into trying to balance the budget and it went back up again.

Hopefully we've learned something from that.

Paul Krugman advocates that we invest heavily in US infrastructure, and onshore manufacturing.

Sounds about right to me. I'd add education and massive retraining to that list.

He thinks we'll need to invent many TRILLIONS of dollars in the next three years to really turn this 13 trillion dollar economy around.

One or two or three mere trillions doesn't impress him.

Fasten your seatbelts its going to be a bumpy ride.

 

[Zoomie1980]

See? We can find something to agree on 100%, Paul.

You are exactly right.

This is not our fathers' recession.

Not even close.

The question is, can the masters prevent this mess from becoming our grandfathers' recession?

I got to tell you I do not think they KNOW they can.

Now when FDR took over in 33 the unemployment was 25%.

He started his NRA trip and got it down to about 17%, then somebody talked him into trying to balance the budget and it went back up again.

Hopefully we've learned something from that.

Paul Krugman advocates that we invest heavily in US infrastructure, and onshore manufacturing.

Sounds about right to me. I'd add education and massive retraining to that list.

He thinks we'll need to invent many TRILLIONS of dollars in the next three years to really turn this 13 trillion dollar economy around.

One or two or three mere trillions doesn't impress him.

Fasten your seatbelts its going to be a bumpy ride.

You loons can simply go shoot yourselves and end it all now.

The country will be fine, at least once the government is finally so far in debt they simply can't pump any more money in that the markets can get on with their business.

As for the debt? I could care less. It's not my problem.

 

[NOBama]

You loons can simply go shoot yourselves and end it all now.

I don't egree with Ed much, but this wisdom coming form somebody who thinks "There is nothing going on today that isn't entirely NORMAL."?

GIVE ME A FREAKIN BREAK.

 

[Paulie]

I don't egree with Ed much, but this wisdom coming form somebody who thinks "There is nothing going on today that isn't entirely NORMAL."?

GIVE ME A FREAKIN BREAK.

And somebody who doesn't believe in national sovereignty, either.

Not in my lifetime, but at some time in the reasonably forseeable future, mankind will leave the need for a nation-state behind. It is already a largely obsolete concept and it no longer really exists in business or communication

 

[Zoomie1980]

I don't egree with Ed much, but this wisdom coming form somebody who thinks "There is nothing going on today that isn't entirely NORMAL."?

GIVE ME A FREAKIN BREAK.

it is 100% ABSOLUTELY NORMAL. The excesses in the financial secondary market and the housing were the most extreme in almost century! Why shouldn't we have a once in a hundred year CORRECTION? That is NORMAL. I am not in the least surprised by this, and in fact, had kind of counted on it in my investment strategy. Not only that, the assinine goverment reaction has been almost shamefully PREDICTABLE.

And I am buying stock and I am fully hoping the dow stays STUCK in the 7000's for YEARS. I intend to do very well. Remember what the Oracle of Omaha always says, Get fearful when most are greedy and get greedy when most are fearful. I am one GREEDY SOB right now....

 

[Zoomie1980]

And somebody who doesn't believe in national sovereignty, either.

Of course I don't. National sovereignty means nothing to my business or my personal life. Most of closet friends are NOT Americans. I'm proud of what American culture has accomplished, and it's dominance of world culture. But the existence of the borders is completely IRRELEVANT to my livelihood or entertainment

 

[Paulie]

Of course I don't. National sovereignty means nothing to my business or my personal life. Most of closet friends are NOT Americans. I'm proud of what American culture has accomplished, and it's dominance of world culture. But the existence of the borders is completely IRRELEVANT to my livelihood or entertainment

That's because you're a selfish bastard who doesn't appreciate the country that afforded you that livelihood. You used America to achieve what you wanted, and when you got where you wanted to be, you decided that taking a shit on the country and its historical system was worth the wealth.

Now that you have what you want out of this country, you couldn't care less what happens to it in the future. You're a piece of shit.