The Fiscal Cliff and Budget Negotiations

[Foxfyre]

The challenge here is to state what you want to happen in the budget negotiations with the following rules:

1. No blaming anybody, Democrat or Republican, for getting us into the current mess.
2. Focus on what you WANT the Congress to do or not do regardless of who votes on what.

At stake in the current budget deal necessary to avoid the fiscal cliff:

If nothing is done, massive across the board budget cuts will hit the most vulnerable people the hardest. Also just some of what must be considered:

Income tax rates will go up.

AMT kicks back in at 2000 rates.

The capital-gains tax rate will increase to 20%.

Dividend income will be taxed as ordinary income.

The estate tax will revert to a top rate of 55%, with an exemption amount of $1 million.

Payroll taxes will go back up (nobody seems to want to extend these)

Debt ceiling currently at 16.4 trilllion will have to be extended

Other tax provisions expire. Dozens of popular tax breaks expired at the end of 2011, and before 2012 ends Congress must decide whether to extend them, retroactively, to the beginning of this year. The list includes several business provisions as well as a variety of deductions for individual filers, including the IRA charitable rollover, which allowed individuals over the age of 70½ to roll as much as $100,000 from their Individual Retirement Account directly to a charity. Also on the list is the important AMT "patch" discussed above.
Excerpted from: http://www.heritage.org/research/re...s/2011/01/wm3121_chart2.ashx?w=400&h=571&as=1

Also included is the uncertainty that is preventing American business from investing trillions of dollars of venture capital and thereby prolonging a crappy economy will continue.

And yet many believe the President’s proposals will hit the middle class the hardest while doing little to make a dent in unacceptable budget deficits.

While others believe the Republicans unwillingness to accept the President’s proposals are purely to obstruct his agenda and protect the rich.

Expenditures each year:
2008 $2,983 billion
2009 $3,518 billion
2010 $3,456 billion
2011 (est.) $3,819 billion
2012 is on track to exceed the 2011 expenditures.
Robert Hansen's Blog: Federal Government Spending, 2008-2011

The national debt as of 8:39 p.m. GMT today:

And the deficits continue at a trillion plus each year and are projected to do so far into the future with the debt clock running at blurring speed.

SO WHAT DO YOU WANT THEM TO DO?​

 

[Foxfyre]

I voted for the most important factor right now is the get the economy moving and I think that will happen only if the private sector knows they have a fighting chance to make a profit if they do that. That means keeping taxes low and relatively permanent for the employers and venture capitalists. That will increase revenues far more than any bigger taxes on the 'rich' will ever do.

 

[Avorysuds]

We should let Obama do what he wants, that way when everything falls the fuck apart, and it will, liberals and Obama can blame Bush.

 

[Foxfyre]

We should let Obama do what he wants, that way when everything falls the fuck apart, and it will, liberals and Obama can blame Bush.

So your vote is to let everything fall apart? I didn't provide that option though I'm sure there are others who would have checked that option too.

I rather think most of us do want what is best for the country and letting it fall or part may or may not be the best way to accomplish that.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Raise the Debt Limit to Infinity and stop paying Income Taxes.

The US Gov't can borrow 100% of what it spends instead of just 50%.

This won't matter one bit as some people say the debt limit means nothing.

Amirite?

 

[Paulie]

Give big business their tax break. Make like it's permanent, and then sit back and watch what they do with it. If they invest and hire, great. If they pocket it, go back and redo the legislation and hit them where it hurts.

Seems simple and yet everyone is making it so hard.

 

[Foxfyre]

Raise the Debt Limit to Infinity and stop paying Income Taxes.

The US Gov't can borrow 100% of what it spends instead of just 50%.

This won't matter one bit as some people say the debt limit means nothing.

Amirite?

It matters if you look forward to living in a third world country. But again, there are some people who really think that is the way we should live.

 

[Toro]

Actually, most of the Fiscal Cliff is the expiring Bush tax cuts. The Fiscal Cliff is about $500 billion in tax increases and $100 billion in spending cuts, of which half are cuts to defense.

And the Democrats hold all the cards. If the Republicans want to reprise the last two years where they refused to co-operate on anything, taxes will increase and the Republican game of chicken will have backfired on them.

 

[Toro]

Raise the Debt Limit to Infinity and stop paying Income Taxes.

The US Gov't can borrow 100% of what it spends instead of just 50%.

This won't matter one bit as some people say the debt limit means nothing.

Amirite?

It matters if you look forward to living in a third world country. But again, there are some people who really think that is the way we should live.

Not raising the debt ceiling gets us closer to being like a third world country, risking the specter of a default like some basket case Latin American nation from the 1980s.

 

[Foxfyre]

Give big business their tax break. Make like it's permanent, and then sit back and watch what they do with it. If they invest and hire, great. If they pocket it, go back and redo the legislation and hit them where it hurts.

Seems simple and yet everyone is making it so hard.

It isn't big business I am really concerned with. It is the Mom & Pop enterprises that are going to be hit with those 'tax the rich' taxes and I simply haven't found a way that can happen without losing more jobs.

What I really want to happen is to settle on business-friendly rates with removal of enough unnecessary regulation so that everybody running a business that requires staff will be encouraged and confident in expanding and hiriing people.

 

[Foxfyre]

Raise the Debt Limit to Infinity and stop paying Income Taxes.

The US Gov't can borrow 100% of what it spends instead of just 50%.

This won't matter one bit as some people say the debt limit means nothing.

Amirite?

It matters if you look forward to living in a third world country. But again, there are some people who really think that is the way we should live.

Not raising the debt ceiling gets us closer to being like a third world country, risking the specter of a default like some basket case Latin American nation from the 1980s.

Why?

 

[AmyNation]

Stop trying to stall and kick the issue down the road, and do your damn jobs. Give the dems the tax increases they want, give the pubs the spending cuts they want.

 

[Foxfyre]

Again I don't care WHO got us into the mess we're in. We're in the mess. I'm only interested in what we think the policy should be to get us out of it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Stop trying to stall and kick the issue down the road, and do your damn jobs. Give the dems the tax increases they want, give the pubs the spending cuts they want.

Many economists think that would ensure that we will see the current crappy economy continue for another decade. Why do you think it would solve the problem?

 

[Paulie]

Give big business their tax break. Make like it's permanent, and then sit back and watch what they do with it. If they invest and hire, great. If they pocket it, go back and redo the legislation and hit them where it hurts.

Seems simple and yet everyone is making it so hard.

It isn't big business I am really concerned with. It is the Mom & Pop enterprises that are going to be hit with those 'tax the rich' taxes and I simply haven't found a way that can happen without losing more jobs.

What I really want to happen is to settle on business-friendly rates with removal of enough unnecessary regulation so that everybody running a business that requires staff will be encouraged and confident in expanding and hiriing people.

Well then let me clarify...business in general.

Businesses aren't hiring because of tax uncertainty, so lets give them their tax break and see what they do with it. If they just continue to pocket it they don't deserve it, especially since they have specifically cited taxes as a barrier to hiring.

There's regulations to deal with too but that's not being discussed in this thread.

 

[Toro]

It matters if you look forward to living in a third world country. But again, there are some people who really think that is the way we should live.

Not raising the debt ceiling gets us closer to being like a third world country, risking the specter of a default like some basket case Latin American nation from the 1980s.

Why?

Because we might default on our debt. This is what deadbeat countries do.

Raise taxes. Cut spending.

F*** dogma.

 

[Toro]

Give big business their tax break. Make like it's permanent, and then sit back and watch what they do with it. If they invest and hire, great. If they pocket it, go back and redo the legislation and hit them where it hurts.

Seems simple and yet everyone is making it so hard.

It isn't big business I am really concerned with. It is the Mom & Pop enterprises that are going to be hit with those 'tax the rich' taxes and I simply haven't found a way that can happen without losing more jobs.

What I really want to happen is to settle on business-friendly rates with removal of enough unnecessary regulation so that everybody running a business that requires staff will be encouraged and confident in expanding and hiriing people.

Well then let me clarify...business in general.

Businesses aren't hiring because of tax uncertainty, so lets give them their tax break and see what they do with it. If they just continue to pocket it they don't deserve it, especially since they have specifically cited taxes as a barrier to hiring.

There's regulations to deal with too but that's not being discussed in this thread.

I agree. Cut corporate taxes to 15% but shut down all the offshore tax havens. Raise income taxes.

 

[AmyNation]

Stop trying to stall and kick the issue down the road, and do your damn jobs. Give the dems the tax increases they want, give the pubs the spending cuts they want.

Many economists think that would ensure that we will see the current crappy economy continue for another decade. Why do you think it would solve the problem?

Economists are a dime a dozen and i can google and find ones that both agree and disagree with tax hikes and spending cuts.

I think we need to increase revenue and cut spending and we need congress to compromise to get it down. Business' want stability, in order to know how to spend their money they need to know what taxes are going to look like in the next 5-10 years not just 6 months or a year down the line. Continuing to keep everything exactly how it is and postpone the issue over and over doesn't solve anything and it leaves all Americans unsure.

Give a bipartisan map of the next 15 years, cut spending and raise taxes slowly over that period of time, add in the debt ceiling increase so we don't have another credit reduction and you will see the economy grow.

 

[AmyNation]

It isn't big business I am really concerned with. It is the Mom & Pop enterprises that are going to be hit with those 'tax the rich' taxes and I simply haven't found a way that can happen without losing more jobs.

What I really want to happen is to settle on business-friendly rates with removal of enough unnecessary regulation so that everybody running a business that requires staff will be encouraged and confident in expanding and hiriing people.

Well then let me clarify...business in general.

Businesses aren't hiring because of tax uncertainty, so lets give them their tax break and see what they do with it. If they just continue to pocket it they don't deserve it, especially since they have specifically cited taxes as a barrier to hiring.

There's regulations to deal with too but that's not being discussed in this thread.

I agree. Cut corporate taxes to 15% but shut down all the offshore tax havens. Raise income taxes.

Agreed.

 

[Paulie]

It isn't big business I am really concerned with. It is the Mom & Pop enterprises that are going to be hit with those 'tax the rich' taxes and I simply haven't found a way that can happen without losing more jobs.

What I really want to happen is to settle on business-friendly rates with removal of enough unnecessary regulation so that everybody running a business that requires staff will be encouraged and confident in expanding and hiriing people.

Well then let me clarify...business in general.

Businesses aren't hiring because of tax uncertainty, so lets give them their tax break and see what they do with it. If they just continue to pocket it they don't deserve it, especially since they have specifically cited taxes as a barrier to hiring.

There's regulations to deal with too but that's not being discussed in this thread.

I agree. Cut corporate taxes to 15% but shut down all the offshore tax havens. Raise income taxes.

I'd prefer not to see income taxes raised, but if someone has to take the hit it better not be the middle class in any way whatsoever.

The issue with only lowering corporate tax is that leaves out a big portion of small businesses that are sole proprietorships or general partnerships, and they employ a lot of people.