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The EU's Pathetic Stance On Turkey, And How It Undermines Arab Reform

Discussion in 'Europe' started by NATO AIR, Sep 19, 2004.

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Sep 19, 2004 #1

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NATO AIR Senior Member

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no doubt about it, the model for arab nations and peoples to follow for democratic government is turkey. too bad the euros are intent on ruining the heroic efforts of turkey's leadership to modernize and reform their nation. (Though the Turks opposed us on Iraq, we must remember their situation was far different from France, Germany or Russia. They have a deep history of antagonism and problems with the peoples of Iraq, unlike the previous mentioned rogues, who only made money off the iraqi people's suffering.) Turkey is still a good and very important ally of the US.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6039153/site/newsweek/

How Not to Win Muslim Allies
There are many in Europe who want to keep Turkey out of the EU because it is large, poor and, most important, because it is Muslim By Fareed Zakaria
NewsweekSept. 27 issue - Here's a quiz: over the past two years, which developing country has undertaken the most dramatic economic, political and social reforms in the world? Some hints: this country has deregulated its economy, simplified its tax code and brought its fiscal house in order, resulting in 8.2 percent growth this year and a 10 percent rise in productivity. It has passed nine packages of major reforms that have reduced the military's influence in government, enshrined political dissent and religious pluralism, passed strict laws against torture, abolished the death penalty and given substantial rights to a long-oppressed minority. The answer is Turkey. Even if it were not a Muslim country situated in the Middle East (sort of), its performance would be stunning. And yet, thanks to events last week, its long-sought quest to become a full member of the European Union may be thwarted.

The Turkish government's insistence on introducing a law making adultery a criminal offense might have derailed matters. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has angrily pointed out that the issue of adultery is not part of the criteria laid out by the EU. He's right technically, but foolish politically. The reality is that there are many in Europe who want to keep Turkey out of the union because it is large, poor and, most important, because it is Muslim. The adultery law gives them a highly public issue to symbolize their fears.

But even if the adultery law passes, so what? European hysteria about this is absurd. Many are claiming that this represents the dangers of Islam in Europe. Have Europeans forgotten their own history? Adultery is banned in the Ten Commandments and was a criminal offense in almost every European country until very recently. Ireland abolished such a law in 1981, France in 1975, Italy in 1969. In America, 23 states still have such laws on the books. Don't get me wrong: I am opposed to the Turkish law. But to judge a developing country like Turkey by the standards of postmodern Europe circa 2004 seems to miss the point. If Turkey were a fully modernized society, it wouldn't need EU membership. Besides, were Turkey to become an EU member, the adultery law would quickly be null and void since the European courts would rule against it.

What is being lost in the current uproar over adultery is that even last week, while debating this one relatively trivial issue, the Turkish Parliament passed 218 laws that reform the penal code in accordance with the EU's criteria. Turkey's record of reform is the equal of most previous candidates for EU membership. A distinguished group of Europeans, including former Finnish prime minister Martti Ahtissari, released a report two weeks ago pointing out that Turkey compares well with two other EU applicants, Bulgaria and Romania.

And what is truly being lost is perhaps the most significant pointall these progressive, modernizing moves are being made by a ruling party that represents the people, unlike so many of the liberals in the Arab world, who are an unelected elite. The AK Party has shown that a devotion to Islam is entirely compatible with liberalism, pluralism and democracy. For this reason it is the most powerful symbol of modern Islam in the world today, a symbol that could have resonance for the the Middle East, Europe's own Muslim population and the entire Islamic world.

For decades people have held up Turkey as a model for Muslim politics. But, as Graham Fuller points out in an insightful essay in The Washington Quarterly, this was a Western fantasy. Ataturk's hypersecular republic, allied to America and Israel, was never going to move the hearts of Muslims. The AK Party has changed even that. By softening the edges of Turkey's secularism, by emphasizing clean government, by reaching out to the Middle East, it is becoming a more approachable model for Muslims. But to build this image it must be able to do some things that reflect the concerns of the Muslim masses, not the elites. That might include laws that reflect the deep concern in every Muslim country that as they modernize, they will become permissive and licentious. This concern is not uniquely Islamic. Every conservative movement and party in the Western world has worried deeply about this for the past 200 years.

In the end the EU decision will not be about Turkey's performance, which has been better than anyone could have hoped. It will be made by a Europe that is either confident or scared of the future. The former would see that Turkey could help solve its labor shortages, help with its problems assimilating Muslim populations and send a powerful signal across the world. The latter is best symbolized by the leader of the German conservatives, Angela Merkl, a bitter opponent of Turkish membership, who acknowledged these positive effects but said recently, "I look inwards." Alas, there are too many European leaders today who look only inwards.

© 2004 Newsweek, Inc.
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Sep 19, 2004 #2

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padisha emperor Senior Member

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their situation was far different from France, Germany or Russia. They have a deep history of antagonism and problems with the peoples of Iraq, unlike the previous mentioned rogues, who only made money off the iraqi people's suffering.)
Click to expand...

You foregt one big big nation in the "rogues nation who only made money off the iraqi people's suffering." : USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA USA

You have the links in WOT's threads.
- Thank You! x 1
Sep 19, 2004 #3

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padisha emperor Senior Member

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You want links ? go to WOT's threads !
ALi puted here several links about USA's weapons trade with Iraq.
Sep 19, 2004 #4

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padisha emperor said:

You want links ? go to WOT's threads !
ALi puted here several links about USA's weapons trade with Iraq.
Click to expand...

Is ali your Siamese twin-----figure out how to do things yourself!!!!!!
Sep 19, 2004 #5

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NATO AIR Senior Member

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hey padisha, why are you french so scared of turkey joining the EU?

you talk a big game about caring about the future of arabs and the need for fairness in int'l relations, yet france is one of the biggest opponents of a moderate and democratic muslim nation joining with the rest of europe?
Sep 19, 2004 #6

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padisha emperor Senior Member

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Europe - I mean here EU - has now 25 memebers. The 10 news are less rich than the other. Eu will do effort to well integrate them. No problem about it.
But the entrance of a new member now, it would be maybe too much, for the moment : EU was not made in 10 yaers :
1957 : 6 countries (France, Germany, Italy, Beligium, Netherlands, Luxembourg )
1973 : UK, Eire, Denmark
1981 : Greece, Spain, Portugal
1995 : Austria, Sweden, Finland
2004: 10 news.
Wait and see, for an other member....

For Turkey : Turkey has a near-east civilization.
And Turkey was not In Europe, in History : In vasions made that Turkey was in Europe : 1453, fall of Constatinople.

To belong to Eu, you should respect some things : a country who want to do a law against the adulterous, who want to PUNISH the people who do an adulterous, it is not the EU conception of democracy and induvidual liberties.
The private life had to be protected.

For myself, I'm not right behind the admission of Turkey in EU, but not right against...

I'll see.
Now,it is too early.
But if Turkey is not more democratic....it wll be hard for it to go into EU.
Sep 19, 2004 #7

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NATO AIR Senior Member

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How much more democratic do you need Turkey to be?
Sep 19, 2004 #8

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To belong to Eu, you should respect some things : a country who want to do a law against the adulterous, who want to PUNISH the people who do an adulterous, it is not the EU conception of democracy and induvidual liberties.
The private life had to be protected.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't that fall under cultural traditions? That's not very multi-cultural of you to reject them simply based on that aspect of their culture. Even so, as far as I know this is being debated in a democratic fashion. Shouldn't that be respected and allowed to grow? Or is the EU an Empire.

The only EU state with better suffrage rights than Turkey is Slovenia. What about that is undemocratic?
Sep 19, 2004 #9

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tell the truth euros: TURKEY CAN NEVER DO ENOUGH TO GET IN THE EU!
Sep 20, 2004 #10

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padisha emperor Senior Member

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Hey, boys, what the fuck do you care about European Union ? you only want to have a good ally in EU.

Turkey had not law against adulterous - with pounishment for adulterous - before - or these last years - . this law changes the things.
It is a withdraw for liberties.

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