The End Of Libertarianism?

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The worst thing you can say about libertarians is that they are intellectually immature, frozen in the worldview many of them absorbed from reading Ayn Rand novels in high school. Like other ideologues, libertarians react to the world's failing to conform to their model by asking where the world went wrong. Their heroic view of capitalism makes it difficult for them to accept that markets can be irrational, misunderstand risk, and misallocate resources or that financial systems without vigorous government oversight and the capacity for pragmatic intervention constitute a recipe for disaster. They are bankrupt, and this time, there will be no bailout.

How the financial collapse killed libertarianism. - By Jacob Weisberg - Slate Magazine

This guy is fundamentally wrong about pretty much everything he talks about. He doesn't mention the Federal Reserve inflating the currency, doesn't mention how much we're spending per month on our overseas empire, and doesn't mention our national debt as causes of this crisis. He also neglects to mention that it was Libertarian's and Austrian economists who correctly identified this crisis years before it even happened. This crisis should have been vindication for Libertarian's and the free market, but too many people are believing the government's rhetoric about a "lack of regulation."

 

[Diuretic]

He's right about libetarianism though. Outside of a text book it isn't able to exist.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

He's right about libetarianism though. Outside of a text book it isn't able to exist.

Care to explain?

 

[elvis]

He's right about libetarianism though. Outside of a text book it isn't able to exist.

how can we know that when we haven't had it?

 

[William Joyce]

Yes, the death of capitalism is much exaggerated. And though I sympathize with libertarianism, the biggest problem it faces is that people don't want it. They actually want lots of government programs. Whaddya gonna do?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Yes, the death of capitalism is much exaggerated. And though I sympathize with libertarianism, the biggest problem it faces is that people don't want it. They actually want lots of government programs. Whaddya gonna do?

Now that I will agree with. People want to be taken care of from cradle to grave.

 

[Diuretic]

Care to explain?

Show me a successful libertarian society.

 

[Diuretic]

how can we know that when we haven't had it?

Well given the crisis in the global economy caused by laissez-faire economics it's not going to be seen any time soon.

 

[Diuretic]

Now that I will agree with. People want to be taken care of from cradle to grave.

And why shouldn't they be?

 

[elvis]

Well given the crisis in the global economy caused by laissez-faire economics it's not going to be seen any time soon.

in a true capitalist society, the banks would fall on their faces.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Well given the crisis in the global economy caused by laissez-faire economics it's not going to be seen any time soon.

yawn

what about government meddling in the free market?

artificially low interest rates that were negative when inflation was taken into account? That was ALL government.

Programs to "guarantee" private mortgages with tax payer money that made mortgage backed securities seem safer than they were...again ALL government

there's plenty of blame to go around but without the above, interest rates would have risen and banks would have slowed lending which would have probably averted this mess for the most part.

But the government just can't be wrong no?

 

[elvis]

Show me a successful libertarian society.

also, consider other parts of libertarianism besides the economic side.

 

[editec]

Care to explain?

Libertopia can no more exist that Commutopia can, Kevin.

For either to exist meaningfully, human nature would have change.

For Communtopia to exist, people would have to agree totally with the rules of the community,

They'd have to sign onto being willing to work to the best of their ability, and to take only what they need.

I think you and I both know that isn't likely to work, right?

Well for libertopia to exist, people would also have work with the rules of the libertopian community, too.

Now do you really think that the losers of libertopia are going to willingly and happily go gently into the good night because they lost the game of capitalism?

No?

Then Libertopia would have to have a police force and courts and prisons to deal with that propensity for losers not to willingly starve to death without a fight, right?

Okay...who is going to man those courts and police force and prisons for you?


People that Libertopian has to pay to do those tasks right?

First of all, how are those people chosen to be granted that power? By popular vote? By the vote of those with the most capital to finance them? By chance? How?

But let us assume that you have a way to create laws, to execute those laws, police powers and prisons to enforce them, too.

Okay, do you really think that those with that power granted to those people won't abuse that power to give them advantages in the game of cut-throat capitalism?

I mean, do you honestly believe that they would NOT do what people always when they are granted such power?

I don't think you really do.

I mean, as a libertarians , you already operate under the supposition that governments are corrupt, don't you?

Well aren;t you now setting up Libertopian for that same problem again?

Ayn Rand wrote a fairy tale about capitalism, Kevin.

You probably read it...Atlas Shrugged.

I read it, too, when I was about 14. I was entrhalled with it, as I suppose you must have been.

But think about the characters who founded that libertopian community with John Galt.

Were they realistic people, or were they idealized people?

So let's talk about reality for a moment

We can change our government to become less socialistic than it is now to be sure.

We can eliminate all social security, all regulations on business.

What do you think that society will look like in one year?

Remember, now, we're starting that civilization from what we have RIGHT NOW.

Tell me ..

What does society look like tomorrow if today 20% of the population becomes destitute?

How about next year when 40% of the population that was almost destitute are having to deal with that 20% who are completely despitute?

Do you think that the marginalized 20% are going to be productive while coping with the destitute 20%?

I think they won't be able to cope and be productive too, and then THEY'LL be desitute, too.

Guess who's coming to dinner, Kevin?

The starving will be.

Do you really think that Libertopia won't have to spend most of its resources protecting itself from those who have been banished from Libertopia?

And since it's every man for himself, or Libertopian has one hell of a powerful police force, how are you going to do that without taxation?

ARe all the winners going to live in castles? and all the almost losers in villiages surrounding that castle, and all the total losers out in the woods as social outcasts and criminals?

Do you know what the above describes?

8th century warlordism... and if you're lucky you might be able to evolve into something like feudalism.

Doesn't sound like a society that's going to very stable to me.

You tell me, how do we migrate from what we have now to whatever you believe LIbertopia looks like.

Maybe I missed something obvious.

Show us the path to Libertopia, dude.

I just cannot see how we get there without something like anarchy reigning down on us first, and out of anarchy libertopian societies do NOT evolve.

 

[Skull Pilot]

In their pure form, most governmental philosophies don't and most likely can't exist.

We do not have a true democracy. We will not have true libertarianism but that does not mean that more libertarian values cannot be incorporated into government.

Is anyone here really so naive as to think that libertarians think "pure" libertarianism can be achieved?

 

[Diuretic]

yawn

what about government meddling in the free market?

artificially low interest rates that were negative when inflation was taken into account? That was ALL government.

Programs to "guarantee" private mortgages with tax payer money that made mortgage backed securities seem safer than they were...again ALL government

there's plenty of blame to go around but without the above, interest rates would have risen and banks would have slowed lending which would have probably averted this mess for the most part.

But the government just can't be wrong no?

Please, I'm not in the blame game here, I just pointed out that libertarianism has a disconnect with reality.

 

[editec]

In their pure form, most governmental philosophies don't and most likely can't exist.

We do not have a true democracy. We will not have true libertarianism but that does not mean that more libertarian values cannot be incorporated into government.

Is anyone here really so naive as to think that libertarians think "pure" libertarianism can be achieved?

Okay, I agree.

We could easily become more libertarian.

Where do we start?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Okay, I agree.

We could easily become more libertarian.

Where do we start?

taxes of course

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Well given the crisis in the global economy caused by laissez-faire economics it's not going to be seen any time soon.

This is incorrect, as I've pointed out numerous times.

Ludwig von Mises Institute - Homepage

And why shouldn't they be?

Let's look at it logically. Some people expect the government to take care of them for their entire lives. The government does nothing to earn it's own money, so it taxes the citizens. We can therefore conclude that in order to take care of those who have no desire to take care of themselves, the government must take money from those who do make something out of themselves and give it to those who are far less deserving.

Not to mention that we can't afford to regardless, being around $10 trillion in debt.

 

[editec]

taxes of course

Okay...show me you tax scheme.

Bear in mind that we've got to pay our current obligations.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I just cannot see how we get there without something like anarchy reigning down on us first, and out of anarchy libertopian societies do NOT evolve.

The idea of "Libertopia" that you're giving off there sounds a lot like complete anarchy, which I do not advocate. Many anarchists may consider themselves Libertarians, but not all Libertarians are anarchists.

The core of my beliefs are that the federal government must begin to work within it's Constitutional restraints, which are, as you know, a matter of debate themselves. In my opinion, this means that the Constitution must be taken as it is. Absolutely no trying to squeeze out what meanings may be found to fit any politician's needs, but exactly what was meant by the founders when it was written. I agree with Ron Paul when he says that the Constitution is not perfect, but it's still very good. If we find that the Constitution is lacking in a certain area, then we are always free to amend it.

Here are a few other ideas that I agree with.

Non-Interventionism:
Many on this board have followed John McCain's lead, and called this philosophy "isolationism." This is ridiculous. Non-Interventionism promotes free trade with all, and diplomacy with all. George W. Bush ran on this policy in 2000, but foolishly abandoned it after 9/11. He criticized the Clinton administration for nation building and policing the world, and he now does it on a much larger scale. We have to immediately end the "War on Terror." It's an endless and un-winnable war against ill defined enemies. This war is bankrupting our nation, and we're losing our soldiers. It's time to pull out of Iraq, pull out of Afghanistan, and bring our troops home from the rest of the world as well. It's also time to stop our hostility towards Iran, stop our economic and military aid towards Israel, and begin to foster diplomacy between the two of them.

Economics:
You know where I stand on sound money and abolishing the Fed, and I doubt we'll come to an agreement on that anytime soon. But for starters, the Fed must stop inflating our money and they need to realize that the free market is better suited to handle our economic woes than they are.

Civil Liberties:
Repeal the Patriot Act and FISA Amendments immediately.

Anyways, I might have gotten a little off of what you were discussing, but I think I answered your question. If not, I'd obviously be glad to clarify my positions.