The Employee Free Choice Act.....

[Patriot2009]

Keep the secret ballot.. If you cannot do that then you own the intimidation label.

What good is a so-called secret ballot if the keeper of the voter rolls withholds them and falsifiys them and the government aids and abets it?

The value of a secret ballot election is preserved only if it is conducted in an open, fair and transparent manner. Otherwise it isn't a real secret ballot election to start with. It's a sham!

That's what one gets in the current system.

great, then you must support the Photo ID requirement to vote for elections too
right?
and why have a secret ballot, lets have everyone sign their ballots so we can be sure that everyone that votes is a legit voter

right?

You must have me mixed up with somebody else. I'm talking about union recognition elections, not public elections. They're two completely different animals.

In a public election, all sides get to present their arguments and make their case. In a union representation election, the company is the only one that gets that privilege. In fact, under current labor law, the company is free to force the employees to sit through endless propaganda sessions called “informational meetings” so long as they are under pay when its done.

Imagine an election campaign in which every citizen is forced to sit through endless tv ads by only one candidate while the others aren’t allowed to advertise at all?

In a public election, the government makes voter registration rolls available to anybody who asks. In a union representation election the company controls the voter rolls and disregards labor law that requires it to furnish accurate copies to the union. Instead, the company hands over incomplete lists that are riddled with false names and erroneous addresses. This practice makes it impossible to carry out any kind of realistic campaign and renders a resulting election a sham.

Under current law, the union must get at least 50% of the workers plus one, in a plant to sign authorization cards. The authorization cards are in essence, a request by the worker that the union be his bargaining agent and that a representation election be held. Once that is done, an election must be conducted. You may not agree, but the very act of more than a majority of employees signing those cards is in essence an elections. What this law will do is recognize that a majority have signed cards asking that the union be recognized as their bargaining agent. Why would there be a need for more, unless it is to give the company the opportunity to intimidate enough employees from their original requests to kill the union’s representation efforts?

By signing the cards the majority has already spoken in a pretty clear fashion. And, remember, even if a union is recognized as a workforce’s bargaining agent, workers in 22 states have the right not to belong to the union or pay union dues. But, you should know that the vast majority of those states are also in the bottom economic echelon in terms of average wages, employment levels and dollars spent on education and schools.

 

[DiveCon]

What good is a so-called secret ballot if the keeper of the voter rolls withholds them and falsifiys them and the government aids and abets it?

The value of a secret ballot election is preserved only if it is conducted in an open, fair and transparent manner. Otherwise it isn't a real secret ballot election to start with. It's a sham!

That's what one gets in the current system.

great, then you must support the Photo ID requirement to vote for elections too
right?
and why have a secret ballot, lets have everyone sign their ballots so we can be sure that everyone that votes is a legit voter

right?

You must have me mixed up with somebody else. I'm talking about union recognition elections, not public elections. They're two completely different animals.

In a public election, all sides get to present their arguments and make their case. In a union representation election, the company is the only one that gets that privilege. In fact, under current labor law, the company is free to force the employees to sit through endless propaganda sessions called “informational meetings” so long as they are under pay when its done.

Imagine an election campaign in which every citizen is forced to sit through endless tv ads by only one candidate while the others aren’t allowed to advertise at all?

In a public election, the government makes voter registration rolls available to anybody who asks. In a union representation election the company controls the voter rolls and disregards labor law that requires it to furnish accurate copies to the union. Instead, the company hands over incomplete lists that are riddled with false names and erroneous addresses. This practice makes it impossible to carry out any kind of realistic campaign and renders a resulting election a sham.

Under current law, the union must get at least 50% of the workers plus one, in a plant to sign authorization cards. The authorization cards are in essence, a request by the worker that the union be his bargaining agent and that a representation election be held. Once that is done, an election must be conducted. You may not agree, but the very act of more than a majority of employees signing those cards is in essence an elections. What this law will do is recognize that a majority have signed cards asking that the union be recognized as their bargaining agent. Why would there be a need for more, unless it is to give the company the opportunity to intimidate enough employees from their original requests to kill the union’s representation efforts?

By signing the cards the majority has already spoken in a pretty clear fashion. And, remember, even if a union is recognized as a workforce’s bargaining agent, workers in 22 states have the right not to belong to the union or pay union dues. But, you should know that the vast majority of those states are also in the bottom economic echelon in terms of average wages, employment levels and dollars spent on education and schools.

because an election is an election
if you want to have Union elections to be open, you shopuldnt have any problem with other elections at least have verifiable ID


otherwise you are a hypocrite

 

[Patriot2009]

great, then you must support the Photo ID requirement to vote for elections too
right?
and why have a secret ballot, lets have everyone sign their ballots so we can be sure that everyone that votes is a legit voter

right?

You must have me mixed up with somebody else. I'm talking about union recognition elections, not public elections. They're two completely different animals.

In a public election, all sides get to present their arguments and make their case. In a union representation election, the company is the only one that gets that privilege. In fact, under current labor law, the company is free to force the employees to sit through endless propaganda sessions called “informational meetings” so long as they are under pay when its done.

Imagine an election campaign in which every citizen is forced to sit through endless tv ads by only one candidate while the others aren’t allowed to advertise at all?

In a public election, the government makes voter registration rolls available to anybody who asks. In a union representation election the company controls the voter rolls and disregards labor law that requires it to furnish accurate copies to the union. Instead, the company hands over incomplete lists that are riddled with false names and erroneous addresses. This practice makes it impossible to carry out any kind of realistic campaign and renders a resulting election a sham.

Under current law, the union must get at least 50% of the workers plus one, in a plant to sign authorization cards. The authorization cards are in essence, a request by the worker that the union be his bargaining agent and that a representation election be held. Once that is done, an election must be conducted. You may not agree, but the very act of more than a majority of employees signing those cards is in essence an elections. What this law will do is recognize that a majority have signed cards asking that the union be recognized as their bargaining agent. Why would there be a need for more, unless it is to give the company the opportunity to intimidate enough employees from their original requests to kill the union’s representation efforts?

By signing the cards the majority has already spoken in a pretty clear fashion. And, remember, even if a union is recognized as a workforce’s bargaining agent, workers in 22 states have the right not to belong to the union or pay union dues. But, you should know that the vast majority of those states are also in the bottom economic echelon in terms of average wages, employment levels and dollars spent on education and schools.

because an election is an election
if you want to have Union elections to be open, you shopuldnt have any problem with other elections at least have verifiable ID


otherwise you are a hypocrite

DiveCon,

I don't beleive that I said that I was against that, or that I'm against much stronger verificatioin of election results or any number of election reforms that are far overdue.

But, that's a different discussion. Start the thread and I'll be there.

 

[DiveCon]

You must have me mixed up with somebody else. I'm talking about union recognition elections, not public elections. They're two completely different animals.

In a public election, all sides get to present their arguments and make their case. In a union representation election, the company is the only one that gets that privilege. In fact, under current labor law, the company is free to force the employees to sit through endless propaganda sessions called “informational meetings” so long as they are under pay when its done.

Imagine an election campaign in which every citizen is forced to sit through endless tv ads by only one candidate while the others aren’t allowed to advertise at all?

In a public election, the government makes voter registration rolls available to anybody who asks. In a union representation election the company controls the voter rolls and disregards labor law that requires it to furnish accurate copies to the union. Instead, the company hands over incomplete lists that are riddled with false names and erroneous addresses. This practice makes it impossible to carry out any kind of realistic campaign and renders a resulting election a sham.

Under current law, the union must get at least 50% of the workers plus one, in a plant to sign authorization cards. The authorization cards are in essence, a request by the worker that the union be his bargaining agent and that a representation election be held. Once that is done, an election must be conducted. You may not agree, but the very act of more than a majority of employees signing those cards is in essence an elections. What this law will do is recognize that a majority have signed cards asking that the union be recognized as their bargaining agent. Why would there be a need for more, unless it is to give the company the opportunity to intimidate enough employees from their original requests to kill the union’s representation efforts?

By signing the cards the majority has already spoken in a pretty clear fashion. And, remember, even if a union is recognized as a workforce’s bargaining agent, workers in 22 states have the right not to belong to the union or pay union dues. But, you should know that the vast majority of those states are also in the bottom economic echelon in terms of average wages, employment levels and dollars spent on education and schools.

because an election is an election
if you want to have Union elections to be open, you shopuldnt have any problem with other elections at least have verifiable ID


otherwise you are a hypocrite

DiveCon,

I don't beleive that I said that I was against that, or that I'm against much stronger verificatioin of election results or any number of election reforms that are far overdue.

But, that's a different discussion. Start the thread and I'll be there.

shoot, there must be a couple hundred or so threads on that already


glad to see you are on board with supporting the voter ID

 

[Harry Dresden]

The job is unskilled labor, i don't know any other company in this type of business that gives any paid sick days.......

well maybe they need a union....

why ? so they get 10 paid sick days per year and use them whether they are sick or not ?

"It's a sunny, 80 degree day and i feel perfectly fine, but fuck it, i have 10 sick days, i'm gonna use one today, hell i'll use another tomorrow if it's another nice day"....

Maybe we don't need a union ......

and what if the guy just fucking does get sick?....you ever get pneumonia?.....you are out 3-4 weeks,what if he had a injury of some kind,and he was going to be out 2 weeks....will your company pay the guy for time off sick with a doctors excuse at least?....or do they just say tough shit......

 

[WillowTree]

What good is a so-called secret ballot if the keeper of the voter rolls withholds them and falsifiys them and the government aids and abets it?

The value of a secret ballot election is preserved only if it is conducted in an open, fair and transparent manner. Otherwise it isn't a real secret ballot election to start with. It's a sham!

That's what one gets in the current system.

The right to vote without intimidation is what you get with a secret ballot you DUmb Nazi.

Name-calling, the last refuge of the uninformed and ignorant who have nothing else to say in favor of thier position.

One can see that you haven't lately been the target of daily employer "informational" meetings in an organizing campaign...in which threats of job cuts and doom and gloom predictions are the order of the day and the union is forced to stand beyond the curb under police scrutiny!

You don't have a clue as to what intimidation is!

I don't??

 

[garyd]

All sides alredy get to present their arguments in a Union election. Under this plan that doesn't happen. Been their and done that.

Free choice my ass. Sign the card young man or Giovanni over here will break your knees... Some choice.

 

[KittenKoder]

Unions as they are, are not good. Unions as they are suppose to be, are good. The problem is that ... they aren't what they are suppose to be ... kinda like a lot of our government at this time.

 

[driveby]

well maybe they need a union....

why ? So they get 10 paid sick days per year and use them whether they are sick or not ?

"it's a sunny, 80 degree day and i feel perfectly fine, but fuck it, i have 10 sick days, i'm gonna use one today, hell i'll use another tomorrow if it's another nice day"....

Maybe we don't need a union ......

and what if the guy just fucking does get sick?....you ever get pneumonia?.....you are out 3-4 weeks,what if he had a injury of some kind,and he was going to be out 2 weeks....will your company pay the guy for time off sick with a doctors excuse at least?....or do they just say tough shit......

short

term

disability

 

[KittenKoder]

why ? So they get 10 paid sick days per year and use them whether they are sick or not ?

"it's a sunny, 80 degree day and i feel perfectly fine, but fuck it, i have 10 sick days, i'm gonna use one today, hell i'll use another tomorrow if it's another nice day"....

Maybe we don't need a union ......

and what if the guy just fucking does get sick?....you ever get pneumonia?.....you are out 3-4 weeks,what if he had a injury of some kind,and he was going to be out 2 weeks....will your company pay the guy for time off sick with a doctors excuse at least?....or do they just say tough shit......

short

term

disability

That's why we all pay into it.

 

[Harry Dresden]

why ? So they get 10 paid sick days per year and use them whether they are sick or not ?

"it's a sunny, 80 degree day and i feel perfectly fine, but fuck it, i have 10 sick days, i'm gonna use one today, hell i'll use another tomorrow if it's another nice day"....

Maybe we don't need a union ......

and what if the guy just fucking does get sick?....you ever get pneumonia?.....you are out 3-4 weeks,what if he had a injury of some kind,and he was going to be out 2 weeks....will your company pay the guy for time off sick with a doctors excuse at least?....or do they just say tough shit......

short

term

disability

and there are thousands of people who have lost their jobs because they were off an extended time.....the last time i was on jury duty,that was what the case was....guy had his appendix out....sorry had to replace you.....im sorry Driveby,i realize some unions are not worth a shit,some are,BUT unless the Company takes care of their workers,and i realize some do,but many dont......they need a union.....how many people who have worked 25 years for a place,only to get laid off while some younger CHEAPER person gets hired?.....many companies want the workers to show them loyalty,and give their all.....and yet to save some money the company will throw the workers to the curb without hesitation.....some companies need a union....

 

[manifold]

are you for it or against it and why?

I don't know. Why? because I don't really understand it. The wikipedia summary is poorly written and difficult to decipher.

 

[driveby]

and what if the guy just fucking does get sick?....you ever get pneumonia?.....you are out 3-4 weeks,what if he had a injury of some kind,and he was going to be out 2 weeks....will your company pay the guy for time off sick with a doctors excuse at least?....or do they just say tough shit......

short

term

disability

and there are thousands of people who have lost their jobs because they were off an extended time.....the last time i was on jury duty,that was what the case was....guy had his appendix out....sorry had to replace you.....im sorry Driveby,i realize some unions are not worth a shit,some are,BUT unless the Company takes care of their workers,and i realize some do,but many dont......they need a union.....how many people who have worked 25 years for a place,only to get laid off while some younger CHEAPER person gets hired?.....many companies want the workers to show them loyalty,and give their all.....and yet to save some money the company will throw the workers to the curb without hesitation.....some companies need a union....

I wouldn't work for a company that shits on their employees, i'm with you there 100%. This is a 2 way street though, when a union give employees too much power, everyone gets lazy, they don't want to do their jobs at a productive level, company loses money and eventually goes under. That's my basic take on this whole thing.

 

[DiveCon]

and what if the guy just fucking does get sick?....you ever get pneumonia?.....you are out 3-4 weeks,what if he had a injury of some kind,and he was going to be out 2 weeks....will your company pay the guy for time off sick with a doctors excuse at least?....or do they just say tough shit......

short

term

disability

and there are thousands of people who have lost their jobs because they were off an extended time.....the last time i was on jury duty,that was what the case was....guy had his appendix out....sorry had to replace you.....im sorry Driveby,i realize some unions are not worth a shit,some are,BUT unless the Company takes care of their workers,and i realize some do,but many dont......they need a union.....how many people who have worked 25 years for a place,only to get laid off while some younger CHEAPER person gets hired?.....many companies want the workers to show them loyalty,and give their all.....and yet to save some money the company will throw the workers to the curb without hesitation.....some companies need a union....

a company like that DESERVES a union to drive em out of business

 

[wihosa]

Companies paying their unskilled employees 50 to 80 thousand a year have nothing to fear from unions. These employees are obiously compensated very well. On the other hand companies that don't should not be able to intimidate their employees who wish to unionize. Collective bargaining is the only way for workers to improve their compensation in a market flush with labor.

Virtually all workplace standards we consider 'normal' were fought for and won by unions either through labor contracts or supporting legislation. 40 hour work weeks, overtime pay, child labor laws, occupational health and safety laws, minimum wage and others.

Labor unions not only benifit their members but support the economy wide wage base as non union companies must pay higher wages to compete with unionized companies.

This is why ever since Reagan began his assault on unions the broad middle class has seen a loss of buying power, with wages losing ground against inflation.

 

[Patriot2009]

short

term

disability

and there are thousands of people who have lost their jobs because they were off an extended time.....the last time i was on jury duty,that was what the case was....guy had his appendix out....sorry had to replace you.....im sorry Driveby,i realize some unions are not worth a shit,some are,BUT unless the Company takes care of their workers,and i realize some do,but many dont......they need a union.....how many people who have worked 25 years for a place,only to get laid off while some younger CHEAPER person gets hired?.....many companies want the workers to show them loyalty,and give their all.....and yet to save some money the company will throw the workers to the curb without hesitation.....some companies need a union....

I wouldn't work for a company that shits on their employees, i'm with you there 100%. This is a 2 way street though, when a union give employees too much power, everyone gets lazy, they don't want to do their jobs at a productive level, company loses money and eventually goes under. That's my basic take on this whole thing.

You might have a point there if your scenario were the rule rather than the exception. Often, in cases where employee moral is that low, it’s a matter of the employer working as hard to violate the contract as it is of the employees not doing an honest days work. When your rights are being violated on a regular basis and your bosses are hateful and disrespectful, the worker can only respond in one of two ways.

As a Christian, I believe that it’s still the Christian’s duty to honor his employer and give him what he’s paying for, a hard day’s work. That way, the Christian stands out and his Testimony is much stronger. Unfortunately, even among Christians, workers respond the other way and back away from giving an honest days work.

As I’ve said before, American workers, particularly union workers, are the most productive in the world. When they’re not working hard and producing a quality product, there is usually a good reason and all too often the reason is poor management.

I remember a case where a cordless phone maker in Chicago closed its plant there causing over 4000 workers to lose their jobs. At the time the product return for defects rate was at less than 10%. The company moved the plant to Mexico because it could hire workers for pennies on the dollar compared to its old plant. The return for defects rate skyrocketed to over 50%. In just a few years it closed the plant in Mexico and resumed U.S. manufacturing.

 

[DiveCon]

and there are thousands of people who have lost their jobs because they were off an extended time.....the last time i was on jury duty,that was what the case was....guy had his appendix out....sorry had to replace you.....im sorry Driveby,i realize some unions are not worth a shit,some are,BUT unless the Company takes care of their workers,and i realize some do,but many dont......they need a union.....how many people who have worked 25 years for a place,only to get laid off while some younger CHEAPER person gets hired?.....many companies want the workers to show them loyalty,and give their all.....and yet to save some money the company will throw the workers to the curb without hesitation.....some companies need a union....

I wouldn't work for a company that shits on their employees, i'm with you there 100%. This is a 2 way street though, when a union give employees too much power, everyone gets lazy, they don't want to do their jobs at a productive level, company loses money and eventually goes under. That's my basic take on this whole thing.

You might have a point there if your scenario were the rule rather than the exception. Often, in cases where employee moral is that low, it’s a matter of the employer working as hard to violate the contract as it is of the employees not doing an honest days work. When your rights are being violated on a regular basis and your bosses are hateful and disrespectful, the worker can only respond in one of two ways.

As a Christian, I believe that it’s still the Christian’s duty to honor his employer and give him what he’s paying for, a hard day’s work. That way, the Christian stands out and his Testimony is much stronger. Unfortunately, even among Christians, workers respond the other way and back away from giving an honest days work.

As I’ve said before, American workers, particularly union workers, are the most productive in the world. When they’re not working hard and producing a quality product, there is usually a good reason and all too often the reason is poor management.

I remember a case where a cordless phone maker in Chicago closed its plant there causing over 4000 workers to lose their jobs. At the time the product return for defects rate was at less than 10%. The company moved the plant to Mexico because it could hire workers for pennies on the dollar compared to its old plant. The return for defects rate skyrocketed to over 50%. In just a few years it closed the plant in Mexico and resumed U.S. manufacturing.

yeah, look at all the companies that outsourced their support depts to Pakistan
you call for help now and you cant even understand the people that need to help you
and god forbid it be a technical issue

 

[Patriot2009]

I’ll never forget a case I handled when I was a local chairman on the property. It was a discipline case where the employee was accused of stealing 6 quarts of oil out of a company vehicle.

In the hearing, the company presented two Special Agents (railroad cops), who testified that they observed him getting into the truck and tossing the oil over into his vehicle that was parked along side.

He was found guilty and fired. Under the hearing rules of the contract, common provisions, the record that is eventually presented to the arbitrator can only include the transcript of the hearing itself, and the arguments of the parties. No “new evidence” can be presented after the hearing.

Two weeks after the hearing, my wife and I happened to be at a New Years Eve party where a third Special Agent from the railroad location in question was also attending. He and I hit it off after a few drinks and he eventually revealed that he overheard the first two Special Agents laughing it up after the hearing about how they had got the guy fired when they really never saw him stealing anything!!! Because of the rules I just described the record was closed and despite my outrage, there was absolutely nothing I could do.

How do you suppose the workers feel about an employer that suborns such conduct by its police officers. When folks ask me about this kind of stuff, I always tell them that the old saying “I got railroaded” didn’t come from the computer industry. Because this kind of thing happens all the time, moral is commonly low and worker productivity often suffers.

 

[driveby]

and there are thousands of people who have lost their jobs because they were off an extended time.....the last time i was on jury duty,that was what the case was....guy had his appendix out....sorry had to replace you.....im sorry Driveby,i realize some unions are not worth a shit,some are,BUT unless the Company takes care of their workers,and i realize some do,but many dont......they need a union.....how many people who have worked 25 years for a place,only to get laid off while some younger CHEAPER person gets hired?.....many companies want the workers to show them loyalty,and give their all.....and yet to save some money the company will throw the workers to the curb without hesitation.....some companies need a union....

I wouldn't work for a company that shits on their employees, i'm with you there 100%. This is a 2 way street though, when a union give employees too much power, everyone gets lazy, they don't want to do their jobs at a productive level, company loses money and eventually goes under. That's my basic take on this whole thing.

You might have a point there if your scenario were the rule rather than the exception. Often, in cases where employee moral is that low, it’s a matter of the employer working as hard to violate the contract as it is of the employees not doing an honest days work. When your rights are being violated on a regular basis and your bosses are hateful and disrespectful, the worker can only respond in one of two ways.

As a Christian, I believe that it’s still the Christian’s duty to honor his employer and give him what he’s paying for, a hard day’s work. That way, the Christian stands out and his Testimony is much stronger. Unfortunately, even among Christians, workers respond the other way and back away from giving an honest days work.

As I’ve said before, American workers, particularly union workers, are the most productive in the world. When they’re not working hard and producing a quality product, there is usually a good reason and all too often the reason is poor management.

I remember a case where a cordless phone maker in Chicago closed its plant there causing over 4000 workers to lose their jobs. At the time the product return for defects rate was at less than 10%. The company moved the plant to Mexico because it could hire workers for pennies on the dollar compared to its old plant. The return for defects rate skyrocketed to over 50%. In just a few years it closed the plant in Mexico and resumed U.S. manufacturing.

I respect the points you've made in this post, you're right in a lot of cases. There have been too many times though where i've really stuck my neck out for people and they've let me down. Some people ( more than you might think ) no matter how well you manage or motivate them, just don't give a fuck until it's too late. From what you posted earlier, i think you're a bit older than i am and i think it was better in your day. It's starting to get bad now and it's just going to keep getting progressively worse imo. Entitlements, Entitlements, Entitlements without earning a damn thing.

 

[driveby]

Companies paying their unskilled employees 50 to 80 thousand a year have nothing to fear from unions.

You'd be surpised, employees get complacent and just keep wanting more and more ridiculous things even though they're already paid and treated very well.