The dreaded gay-wedding-cake saga ends: bakers must pay 135 K

[dblack]

Again, no. I don't, actually.

But, I'm all too familiar with this response when statists would rather avoid discussion. It means - "I got nuthin'".

No, it means exactly that.

YOur argument is that the gays should take abuse from vendors. I don't think they should have to.

Any more than I think the blacks at Woolworth should have just "eaten somewhere else".

No. That's your silly, made-up version of my argument. I don't think gays should take abuse from vendors. Neither should blacks. But that doesn't require a sledgehammer in the form of law that strips fundamental rights from business owners.

 

[JoeB131]

No. That's your silly, made-up version of my argument. I don't think gays should take abuse from vendors. Neither should blacks. But that doesn't require a sledgehammer in the form of law that strips fundamental rights from business owners.

No fundemental rights are stripped. You have rights. Your business does not. Your business is required to follow all the laws that govern commerce. If you can't follow those laws, you shouldn't have a business.

This really isn't complicated.

 

[dblack]

No. That's your silly, made-up version of my argument. I don't think gays should take abuse from vendors. Neither should blacks. But that doesn't require a sledgehammer in the form of law that strips fundamental rights from business owners.

No fundemental rights are stripped. You have rights. Your business does not. Your business is required to follow all the laws that govern commerce. If you can't follow those laws, you shouldn't have a business.

This really isn't complicated.

You're right. It isn't complicated. Not nearly as complicated as your tortured argument. A business owner, and those that work for the business, shouldn't be required by law to give up their rights when they come to work. And that's what PA laws do. A free human being will always have the right to decide who they serve and under what circumstances. We should never give up the right to say "no".

 

[JoeB131]

You're right. It isn't complicated. Not nearly as complicated as your tortured argument. A business owner, and those that work for the business, shouldn't be required by law to give up their rights when they come to work. And that's what PA laws do. A free human being will always have the right to decide who they serve and under what circumstances. We should never give up the right to say "no".

Guy, I give up my "rights" every day when I go to work. But they pay me, so that's fine. There's a whole lot of shit I'd rather not do, but I'm required to do them.

This isn't complicated at all. Your business doesn't have "rights". If you don't want to do something, don't own a business where you might have to do that.

for instance, I would never work for a gun manufacturer or a tobacco company on principle.

The Kliens want to have their cake and eat it, too.

 

[blunthead]

You're right. It isn't complicated. Not nearly as complicated as your tortured argument. A business owner, and those that work for the business, shouldn't be required by law to give up their rights when they come to work. And that's what PA laws do. A free human being will always have the right to decide who they serve and under what circumstances. We should never give up the right to say "no".

Guy, I give up my "rights" every day when I go to work. But they pay me, so that's fine. There's a whole lot of shit I'd rather not do, but I'm required to do them.

This isn't complicated at all. Your business doesn't have "rights". If you don't want to do something, don't own a business where you might have to do that.

for instance, I would never work for a gun manufacturer or a tobacco company on principle.

The Kliens want to have their cake and eat it, too.

Spoken like a true komrade.

 

[dblack]

You're right. It isn't complicated. Not nearly as complicated as your tortured argument. A business owner, and those that work for the business, shouldn't be required by law to give up their rights when they come to work. And that's what PA laws do. A free human being will always have the right to decide who they serve and under what circumstances. We should never give up the right to say "no".

Guy, I give up my "rights" every day when I go to work.

Do you really think that? It's not true, you know. You always have the right to say no to an employer.

I think this is where we pay the price for letting the industrialists use the public school system to indoctrinate slaves.

 

[blunthead]

No. That's your silly, made-up version of my argument. I don't think gays should take abuse from vendors. Neither should blacks. But that doesn't require a sledgehammer in the form of law that strips fundamental rights from business owners.

No fundemental rights are stripped. You have rights. Your business does not. Your business is required to follow all the laws that govern commerce. If you can't follow those laws, you shouldn't have a business.

This really isn't complicated.

Actually, it is rather complicated. It'd be one thing, imho, if a given business owner refused to serve a black man because he's black, and another thing to refuse to serve a gay person. Gayness is not even understood, especially scientifically, so who's to say who's in the right when someone objects to gayness? Plus, gay behavior flies in the face of what most people (still) believe. So, for a business owned by someone whose beliefs, the free expression of which are guaranteed in this country, are directly confronted by someone flying in his face, that owner should be able to object and not have to comply to any law except that of his own conscience.

 

[JoeB131]

Do you really think that? It's not true, you know. You always have the right to say no to an employer.

I also have a right to clean out my desk, but I'd rather not do that right now.

I think this is where we pay the price for letting the industrialists use the public school system to indoctrinate slaves.

Guy, the reality is, we all make comprimises EVERY FUCKING DAY to get along. The problem with you Libertards is you think that common decency and common sense don't apply to you.

Which works if you are a rich asshole like a Koch Brother. The rest of us kind of have to get along with people.

If the Kleins don't want to bake the cake for the scary Lesbians, they can close down their bakery and do something where they won't encounter lesbians. They might want to avoid buying that Subaru dealership, though.

 

[dblack]

Do you really think that? It's not true, you know. You always have the right to say no to an employer.

I also have a right to clean out my desk, but I'd rather not do that right now.

And that's your choice. A business vendor faces the same choice when presented with a transaction that's in conflict with their values. They can stick to their principles and lose a sale - and perhaps the respect of the community and other potential customers - or they can get over themselves and make a living.

I think this is where we pay the price for letting the industrialists use the public school system to indoctrinate slaves.

Guy, the reality is, we all make comprimises EVERY FUCKING DAY to get along. The problem with you Libertards is you think that common decency and common sense don't apply to you.

More made-up silliness. You should write Jack Chick style comics about libertarians.

 

[JoeB131]

Actually, it is rather complicated. It'd be one thing, imho, if a given business owner refused to serve a black man because he's black, and another thing to refuse to serve a gay person. Gayness is not even understood, especially scientifically, so who's to say who's in the right when someone objects to gayness? Plus, gay behavior flies in the face of what most people (still) believe. So, for a business owned by someone whose beliefs, the free expression of which are guaranteed in this country, are directly confronted by someone flying in his face, that owner should be able to object and not have to comply to any law except that of his own conscience.

Uh. no.

Because, frankly, you can use the whole "My Magic Sky Fairy Says So" argument to justify racism as well as homophobia. God Clearly Cursed the Descendants of Ham in Genesis 9, so it's okay not to serve the blacks.

I'll give you a better one. Pretending that someone can actually "choose" to be gay. (Seriously, when did you choose to be straight?) the fact is, most people choose to belong to a certain religion. So by the logic you just set down here, could the Kleins refuse to serve Mormons or Jews?

Another example. PA laws also protect me as a veteran. It means that a business can't discriminate against me because I served my country. (not that my service was that impressive, I really did the same thing I do now, fill out paperwork). Now, choosing to sign up was a CHOICE I made. But I should still expect good service even if your store is owned by a bunch of hippies who hate the military.

The law protects race, it protects veterans, it protects religion, it protects sexual orientation.

It's reasonable and fair.

 

[JoeB131]

And that's your choice. A business vendor faces the same choice when presented with a transaction that is in conflict with they're values. They can make the sale, or they can stick to their principles and lose a sale - and perhaps the respect of the community and other potential customers.

If the sale is in conflict with their values, they should find somethign else to do for a living.

DONE.

 

[dblack]

And that's your choice. A business vendor faces the same choice when presented with a transaction that is in conflict with they're values. They can make the sale, or they can stick to their principles and lose a sale - and perhaps the respect of the community and other potential customers.

If the sale is in conflict with their values, they should find somethign else to do for a living.

DONE.

Says who? And if you quit a job for an employer you don't get a long with, should you also "find something else to do for a living?" Should you be blocked out of your chosen profession because you refuse to work for a single employer???

 

[JoeB131]

Says who? And if you quit a job for an employer you don't get a long with, should you also "find something else to do for a living?" Should you be blocked out of your chosen profession because you refuse to work for a single employer???

You obviously don't know how employers can blackball you in certain industries...

 

[Seawytch]

Have any of you people EVER lived in a rural community? It's fine to say "take your business elsewhere"...but what if there is no elsewhere?

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Have any of you people EVER lived in a rural community? It's fine to say "take your business elsewhere"...but what if there is no elsewhere?

As long as that only happens to fags and others they don't like, they couldn't give a damn. In their world it's all about them, obviously...

 

[Seawytch]

Have any of you people EVER lived in a rural community? It's fine to say "take your business elsewhere"...but what if there is no elsewhere?

As long as that only happens to fags and others they don't like, they couldn't give a damn. In their world it's all about them, obviously...

...and moooslums...

 

[WorldWatcher]

Have any of you people EVER lived in a rural community? It's fine to say "take your business elsewhere"...but what if there is no elsewhere?

Yes I have.

Even rural communities don't exist on another planet, there is an elsewhere. Not saying in the same location, but logically speaking there is an elsewhere.

On top of that the corporatisation of business greatly changes the dynamic of the business community. Chained/Franchised grocery, restaurant, medical, gas, automotive sale/service have changed the business landscape greatly since the 50's and 60's. Repeal of Public Accommodation laws (as applied to private business and not government entities or contract made by government entities) are not going to return this country back to the racial days of years past.

Will there be some mom & pop places that might discriminate? Sure, but they will be minor in the grand scheme of things. Freedom can be messy.


>>>>

 

[dblack]

Says who? And if you quit a job for an employer you don't get a long with, should you also "find something else to do for a living?" Should you be blocked out of your chosen profession because you refuse to work for a single employer???

You obviously don't know how employers can blackball you in certain industries...

Sure I do. Customers can do the same thing to bigoted business owners. But you're not legally prohibited from quitting.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Says who? And if you quit a job for an employer you don't get a long with, should you also "find something else to do for a living?" Should you be blocked out of your chosen profession because you refuse to work for a single employer???

You obviously don't know how employers can blackball you in certain industries...

Sure I do. Customers can do the same thing to bigoted business owners. But you're not legally prohibited from quitting.

...and neither are the Kleins.

 

[dblack]

Says who? And if you quit a job for an employer you don't get a long with, should you also "find something else to do for a living?" Should you be blocked out of your chosen profession because you refuse to work for a single employer???

You obviously don't know how employers can blackball you in certain industries...

Sure I do. Customers can do the same thing to bigoted business owners. But you're not legally prohibited from quitting.

...and neither are the Kleins.

Yep. That's not under dispute.
Everyone should have the right to say, "No thanks".