The difference between conservatives and liberals

[theDoctorisIn]

Do you remember all the predictions that the recession was going to cause a spike in crime, and how that was one of the arguments in favor of cutting the payroll tax? Were those arguments coming from conservatives?

I don't remember anyone making that argument. Not to say it didn't happen, but I don't remember seeing it.

I don't know the political persuasion of the people who made those statements, nor do I see how it's relevant to my argument.

Maybe the problem here is that you are seeing things. I don't believe that liberal/conservative is the only possible breakdown in political classification, and have never argued that they are. That means that I am not presenting a false dichotomy, you are creating it because you are incapable of seeing the entire spectrum of humanity.

The false dichotomy that I'm talking about isn't between "Liberal" and "Conservative".

It's between "personal responsibility" and "societal responsibility".

I get it now, you want to redefine terms in order to win your argument. Unfortunately, false dichotomy has a specific meaning, we don't have the same luxury they did before the invention of the printing press to change language simply because we want it to mean something else.

False dilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now I will address your alleged point. Social responsibility, the belief that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. You have no evidence that this is true, so you resort to accusing me of misstating the choices, even though you are actually arguing in support of my point that liberals believe society owes people a living, and conservatives believe people make their own choices.

I have to admit that I don't follow your logic, but feel free to present some actual arguments that the difference between social responsibility and personal responsibility is not definitive while simultaneously insisting it is.

I see that you're not understanding what I'm saying, so let me clear a few things up.

I should have said that the false dichotomy that I was speaking of is your claim that either people believe in personal responsibility OR societal responsibility.

My point is that all people, "liberal" or "conservative", will agree that both personal responsibility and societal responsibility exist, to some extent or another.

It's ridiculous to claim that all liberals believe that in all cases, society bears the responsibility for the individual - just as it's ridiculous to claim that all conservatives believe, in all cases, that the individual bears responsibility for themselves.

 

[regent]

There are a number of books and booklets on political ideologies. If one is serious about the definitions I would suggest reading, and reading more than two. Most try to be objective and without bias, and most haven't bothered with the insults and other trivia to cover up the lack of knowledge.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

There are a number of books and booklets on political ideologies. If one is serious about the definitions I would suggest reading, and reading more than two. Most try to be objective and without bias, and most haven't bothered with the insults and other trivia to cover up the lack of knowledge.

Subjective terms like political ideologies can't be defined absolutely.

 

[rdean]

People think this is complicated, but it can be summed up in one sentence written by a conservative talking about what he calls GOP TV.

The show portrays drug dealers as narcissists and sociopaths who deal drugs as a way to garner power, ignoring the socioeconomic conditions that force many people to deal drugs.

The Daily Northwestern : Misulonas: GOP TV

Anyone want to guess what it is?

Yea, it's a "TV" show. It's not real. Wake up.

 

[auditor0007]

"The difference between conservatives and liberals"

Liberals want to help the poor by keeping them poor and conservatives want to help the poor help themselves.

whatever you say...

This entire welfare argument gets old after a while. If you were raised in a middle class family and found your own way and never needed any help, that's wonderful; we're all proud of you. The problem is that most people on welfare were not raised in that environment. Most of you have no clue what that poor environment is like, I mean as in you are completely clueless. All you see are lazy people. Now, if we were talking about single adults only, I would tend to agree with much of the dogging of the poor that goes on, but the fact is that in almost every welfare family, and I did say family, kids are involved. These kids can't do anything to support themselves, but I suppose they too are lazy bums taking advantage of the system, and therefore they should get off their lazy asses and get a job, right?

For every adult on welfare, there are nearly three children. So if you want to kick everyone off of welfare to make this a better country, please come up with a solution as to what will happen to all these kids who need those welfare payments just so they can eat. You see, it's easy to point fingers and talk shit about things people don't really understand. It's because too many simple minds believe there are simple solutions to everything. One liners are the answer of course, rather than actually coming up with real solutions. Blame everything on the poor fuckers because they are bringing our country down. It's all their fault.

It amazes me how so few people can make so much fucking money and yet we can't find jobs for millions of people that would allow them to make at least enough to keep a roof over their head and put food on the table. Hell, that is all that most people really want. Not everyone is concerned with getting rich and wealthy. But let's blame it on those poor fuckers for not working three minimum wage jobs, which they can't even find to begin with, just to scrape by.

One last thing; those of you who think these people living on welfare are living high on the hog ought to do some damn research to see what these welfare people actually get. You'd be amazed at how little they really get.

BTW, I just tagged this to your post Jillian. I'm not talking about you here.

 

[Noomi]

"The difference between conservatives and liberals"

Liberals want to help the poor by keeping them poor and conservatives want to help the poor help themselves.

Bullshit. Cons don't care about the poor, they are happy if the poor stay poor. Liberals want to provide assistance to help the poor.

 

[daveman]

But conservatives are the ones who try and keep the status quo though - more often than not...

Which is why conservatives are the ones who want to change the way we educate our children, and liberals want to keep doing the same thing.

Want to try again?

Er, no. You want to go back to the way you were teaching children years ago.

Want to try again?

Oh, you mean teaching them math, science, reading, history, and geography, instead of liberal indoctrination and giving them medals for participation?

Yes, what a horrible idea.

 

[daveman]

"The difference between conservatives and liberals"

Liberals want to help the poor by keeping them poor and conservatives want to help the poor help themselves.

Bullshit. Cons don't care about the poor, they are happy if the poor stay poor. Liberals want to provide assistance to help the poor.

To help them stay poor.

If they got enough help to rise above their circumstances, they might not vote Democrat any more.

Can't have that, can we? Nope, far better for the Party that we keep people dependent on the government and voting for the people who promise them goodies.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

But conservatives are the ones who try and keep the status quo though - more often than not...

Which is why conservatives are the ones who want to change the way we educate our children, and liberals want to keep doing the same thing.

Want to try again?

Er, no. You want to go back to the way you were teaching children years ago.

Want to try again?

Years ago we had the highest test scores in the world, can you point out what we were doing wrong?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't remember anyone making that argument. Not to say it didn't happen, but I don't remember seeing it.

I don't know the political persuasion of the people who made those statements, nor do I see how it's relevant to my argument.

The false dichotomy that I'm talking about isn't between "Liberal" and "Conservative".

It's between "personal responsibility" and "societal responsibility".

I get it now, you want to redefine terms in order to win your argument. Unfortunately, false dichotomy has a specific meaning, we don't have the same luxury they did before the invention of the printing press to change language simply because we want it to mean something else.

False dilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now I will address your alleged point. Social responsibility, the belief that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. You have no evidence that this is true, so you resort to accusing me of misstating the choices, even though you are actually arguing in support of my point that liberals believe society owes people a living, and conservatives believe people make their own choices.

I have to admit that I don't follow your logic, but feel free to present some actual arguments that the difference between social responsibility and personal responsibility is not definitive while simultaneously insisting it is.

I see that you're not understanding what I'm saying, so let me clear a few things up.

I should have said that the false dichotomy that I was speaking of is your claim that either people believe in personal responsibility OR societal responsibility.

My point is that all people, "liberal" or "conservative", will agree that both personal responsibility and societal responsibility exist, to some extent or another.

It's ridiculous to claim that all liberals believe that in all cases, society bears the responsibility for the individual - just as it's ridiculous to claim that all conservatives believe, in all cases, that the individual bears responsibility for themselves.

I see you do not understand, let me type with larger letters.

I do not believe any such thing, you are projecting.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

People think this is complicated, but it can be summed up in one sentence written by a conservative talking about what he calls GOP TV.

The show portrays drug dealers as narcissists and sociopaths who deal drugs as a way to garner power, ignoring the socioeconomic conditions that force many people to deal drugs.

The Daily Northwestern : Misulonas: GOP TV

Anyone want to guess what it is?

Yea, it's a "TV" show. It's not real. Wake up.

It is amazing how all the experts comment without actually reading anything.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

I get it now, you want to redefine terms in order to win your argument. Unfortunately, false dichotomy has a specific meaning, we don't have the same luxury they did before the invention of the printing press to change language simply because we want it to mean something else.

False dilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now I will address your alleged point. Social responsibility, the belief that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. You have no evidence that this is true, so you resort to accusing me of misstating the choices, even though you are actually arguing in support of my point that liberals believe society owes people a living, and conservatives believe people make their own choices.

I have to admit that I don't follow your logic, but feel free to present some actual arguments that the difference between social responsibility and personal responsibility is not definitive while simultaneously insisting it is.

I see that you're not understanding what I'm saying, so let me clear a few things up.

I should have said that the false dichotomy that I was speaking of is your claim that either people believe in personal responsibility OR societal responsibility.

My point is that all people, "liberal" or "conservative", will agree that both personal responsibility and societal responsibility exist, to some extent or another.

It's ridiculous to claim that all liberals believe that in all cases, society bears the responsibility for the individual - just as it's ridiculous to claim that all conservatives believe, in all cases, that the individual bears responsibility for themselves.

I see you do not understand, let me type with larger letters.

I do not believe any such thing, you are projecting.

So what did you mean when you posted this, if not to say that you believe there's a dichotomy as to how "liberals" and "conservatives" think?

That is it in a nutshell. The way I see it liberals think society forces people to do things, conservatives think people make their own choices. Liberals are pessimists who think people have no chance unless they get help, conservatives are optimists who think people can do anything.

 

[jgarden]

Liberals want to GIVE people fish, using somebody else's money to buy the fish.

Conservatives want to teach people HOW to fish.

Except that fishing could hardly be considered a growth industry - too many boats and not enough fishing stocks to support them!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I see that you're not understanding what I'm saying, so let me clear a few things up.

I should have said that the false dichotomy that I was speaking of is your claim that either people believe in personal responsibility OR societal responsibility.

My point is that all people, "liberal" or "conservative", will agree that both personal responsibility and societal responsibility exist, to some extent or another.

It's ridiculous to claim that all liberals believe that in all cases, society bears the responsibility for the individual - just as it's ridiculous to claim that all conservatives believe, in all cases, that the individual bears responsibility for themselves.

I see you do not understand, let me type with larger letters.

I do not believe any such thing, you are projecting.

So what did you mean when you posted this, if not to say that you believe there's a dichotomy as to how "liberals" and "conservatives" think?

That is it in a nutshell. The way I see it liberals think society forces people to do things, conservatives think people make their own choices. Liberals are pessimists who think people have no chance unless they get help, conservatives are optimists who think people can do anything.

As I already pointed out, there are more than two places on the political spectrum.

 

[Dr Grump]

Years ago we had the highest test scores in the world, can you point out what we were doing wrong?

Link.
And highest test scores compared to what?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Link.
And highest test scores compared to what?

Link to what?

Are you trying to take the position that test scores have not declined in comparison to the rest of the world? Isn't that the main reason you think we should spend more money on schools?

 

[asterism]

Definition of a Liberal


"A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money."

Whose money do the conservatives use to pay off debt? Or do they just like to borrow, spend, and then blame the "liberal" for raising taxes to pay off the debts that the "conservatives" accrued?

That point would be valid if any tax increases were used to pay off debt. When does our current liberal President plan on doing that?

 

[Dr Grump]

Link.
And highest test scores compared to what?

Link to what?

Are you trying to take the position that test scores have not declined in comparison to the rest of the world? Isn't that the main reason you think we should spend more money on schools?

Link to the test scores from years ago compared to now.

I have no idea about test scores.
How are these tests carried out?
Has the methodology changed over the years?
Have US scores gone down, or have other country's scores gone up?
What affect has immigration and ESL had on average scores?
What questions are they asking in these exams - ie, are the harder or easier than they used to be?

I could go on.

Do I think we should spend more money on schools? have I ever said that?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Link.
And highest test scores compared to what?

Link to what?

Are you trying to take the position that test scores have not declined in comparison to the rest of the world? Isn't that the main reason you think we should spend more money on schools?

Link to the test scores from years ago compared to now.

I have no idea about test scores.
How are these tests carried out?
Has the methodology changed over the years?
Have US scores gone down, or have other country's scores gone up?
What affect has immigration and ESL had on average scores?
What questions are they asking in these exams - ie, are the harder or easier than they used to be?

I could go on.

Do I think we should spend more money on schools? have I ever said that?

IF you don't agree with the assholes who say we need to spend more money on education because the test scores are going down take it up with them, not me.

 

[Dr Grump]

Link to what?

Are you trying to take the position that test scores have not declined in comparison to the rest of the world? Isn't that the main reason you think we should spend more money on schools?

Link to the test scores from years ago compared to now.

I have no idea about test scores.
How are these tests carried out?
Has the methodology changed over the years?
Have US scores gone down, or have other country's scores gone up?
What affect has immigration and ESL had on average scores?
What questions are they asking in these exams - ie, are the harder or easier than they used to be?

I could go on.

Do I think we should spend more money on schools? have I ever said that?

IF you don't agree with the assholes who say we need to spend more money on education because the test scores are going down take it up with them, not me.

Huh? You brought up people spending more money on education and testing, not me ya doofus...