The difference between capitalism and socialism in a nutshell

[Skylar]

Likewise, if you're not a lassie faire capitalist, then you must be a communist. Or a socialist. Or a fascist. As the only possible goal you could have is the most extreme possible. It never occurs to them that you may just want regulated capitalism, or some environmental protections, or some checks to private power.

And its that inability to perceive anything but the polar extremes (if you're not with us, you're against us!) that result in the type of reaction we've seen today.

Today? What do you call all the capitalist, right wing bashing on your end? If you oppose capitalism then what system are you in favor of? Government run economies is fascism, socialism, communism. The problem is that for some reason the left doesn't want to own up to it.

I've not bashed capitalism. I've lauded it. Its efficiency, its ability to match supply of a good or service with the demand for it, its push toward innovation. I've simly recognized that unchecked, it comes with some significant negative consequences as well: instability, concentrations of private power, and massive environmental damage.

Regulated capitalism, in my personal opinion, is the best economic system we've created to date. It provides all the advantages of capitalism (efficiency, innovation) with less of the costs (instability, environmental damage, concentrations of private power). Its the system I advocate, enjoy using for my personal benefit, and suggest we continue using.

And I'm lauded many conservative values. I think their emphasis on personal gain shows a solid understanding of what motivates people. I think that they are right in that too much assistance from the government (or anyone) can mute such motivation. I respect their emphasis on family values, sharing many of them. I respect their emphasis on hard work, and I share it. I respect their recognition of the value of consequence, as I agree it is a most able teacher. I'm an enormous fan of entrepreneurship, and believe that it is the single greatest tool we can use to combat poverty. Even more so than education.

Where I disagree with many conservatives is in their insistence that their values must be purely and universally applied. I think they have their place. But I think there are many instances where they don't work as well. Where a 'pure' implementation of their philosophies can be more harmful than good. I'm more concerned with the utility and quality of outcome rather than the purity of process. So if pure capitalism doesn't produce good results, I'm more than happy to regulate it to get better results.

And no, I don't believe that any means are justified by the ends. I think the ends and means must both be taken into account.

 

[Skylar]

Probably so. BUT it really wasn't a free market when the monopolies formed and had almost total control of the marketplace.

Monopolies are very much consistent with a free market. But they do underscore the fact that reasonable limitations of the freedom of a market can be beneficial to the health of an economy.

I think the advantage of the capitalism (efficiency, innovation) are the product of competition. Any any practice that limits competition likewise limits the advantages of capitalism.

Which is why I support regulated capitalism. As it helps keep the playing field relatively level, discourages monopolies, discourages insider trading, price fixing, wage fixing, and other anti-competitive practices that are common among unregulated capitalism. And likewise helps create an environment where competition can thrive. And with it, the benefits of efficiency and innovation.

 

[Kosh]

Probably so. BUT it really wasn't a free market when the monopolies formed and had almost total control of the marketplace.

Monopolies are very much consistent with a free market. But they do underscore the fact that reasonable limitations of the freedom of a market can be beneficial to the health of an economy.

I think the advantage of the capitalism (efficiency, innovation) are the product of competition. Any any practice that limits competition likewise limits the advantages of capitalism.

Which is why I support regulated capitalism. As it helps keep the playing field relatively level, discourages monopolies, discourages insider trading, price fixing, wage fixing, and other anti-competitive practices that are common among unregulated capitalism. And likewise helps create an environment where competition can thrive. And with it, the benefits of efficiency and innovation.

See the far left shows they want communism/socialism..

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Probably so. BUT it really wasn't a free market when the monopolies formed and had almost total control of the marketplace.

Monopolies are very much consistent with a free market. But they do underscore the fact that reasonable limitations of the freedom of a market can be beneficial to the health of an economy.

I think the advantage of the capitalism (efficiency, innovation) are the product of competition. Any any practice that limits competition likewise limits the advantages of capitalism.

Which is why I support regulated capitalism. As it helps keep the playing field relatively level, discourages monopolies, discourages insider trading, price fixing, wage fixing, and other anti-competitive practices that are common among unregulated capitalism. And likewise helps create an environment where competition can thrive. And with it, the benefits of efficiency and innovation.

See the far left shows they want communism/socialism..

That is nothing of the kind, you are simply too stupid a child to understand.

 

[Political Junky]

Isn't our military Socialist? That would include the VA of course.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Most 'liberals' aren't going for socialism. But regulated capitalism. As capitalism has flaws of its own: a tendancy toward unfair trading practices, wild abuses of the environment, and instability.

Unfair business practices could manifest as businesses working together to fix prices, monopolies, insider trading, etc.. All explicitly serve the self interest of the individual or individuals committing such practices. But not the public doing business with them. And this is hardly something new, having been recognized for a very long time.

Businesses hate competition. It cuts into their profits. So they do everything in their power to eliminate it. The very engine of capitalism, business, works to eliminate the primary advantage of capitalism: efficiency. When capitalism is regulated to prevent such unfair practices, you maximize this efficiency.

The second flaw of capitalism is its brutal outcome on the environment. Taking all the pandas, spotted owls and humpback whales off the table, capitalism is hell on the water we drink and the air we breathe. As people act of our self interest, not collective interest. If its beneficial to them to say, pollute a river downstream to save money, they will. As the water upstream where they live isn't contaminated. And they save money.

That it fucks the town downstream isn't their problem. That's self interest in action.

And we're seeing that influence effect China as it becomes more capitalistic:

Most of the workers start coming down with respitory illnesses after about 2 years.

That's in the city of Harbin, where the small particle pollution is 40 times what is considered unhealthy. Things in Beijing aren't much better:

And while this water may be beautiful......I wouldn't want to drink it

Regulated capitalism helps mitigate this damage and prevent self interest from poisoning the public.

The last great flaw of capitalism is its instability. Its prone to wild expansions followed by crippling contractions. inflation, followed by deflation. With each boom and bust cycle wasting enormous resources and causing havoc on the lives of those working for a living.

Regulated capitalism helps mitigate this instability, shortening the contractions and extending the expansions. Since the implementation of the Fed, we've seen half the years in depression or recession than we saw before it. Regulated capitalism also creates a social safety net that helps mitigate the harm to individuals and families as they weather the economic downturns.

With all of these reasons why most 'liberals' support regulated capitalism. When properly managed, its the most efficient system of economy we've yet produced. But like fire, it will burn the shit out of you if left uncontrolled.

Wrong! The far left wants government to control every aspect of your life, you know the examples you just posted..

Which is why you vote far left without question or hesitation..

Also a far left drone (like you) pretending to be a "Liberal" should offend every true "Liberal" out there.

The far left wants to eliminate government, the far right is authoritarian and wants to control everything and everyone.

Regulated capitalism is what we have, and what capitalists want to see go away. Without regulations, who or what would save capitalism from the capitalists?

The pollution is a short term, temporary problem and it beats the fuck out of starvation and poverty

Q. Short term pollution means exactly what?

A. In X amount of years, when cancers spike in teens and adults, frogs grow 8 legs and human babies are still born or born deformed, an EPA will be established, a Superfund will be created, and a crazy right wing will develop opposing the expenditure of money to clean up the mess, which no amount of evidence will every convince this crowd that pollution was the cause.

This is an argument the ideologues consistently lose because people don't want to live in pollution and recognize the harm that it causes to them and their families.

Clean water and clean air transcend political parties.

I wish it did. We can see the Republican Party is not talking about clean water, clean air and the preservation of soil. They speak in terms of too much regulation of the fossil fuel and chemical industries.

When was the last time a Republican - not called a RINO - spoke of environmental protection?

 

[Kosh]

Isn't our military Socialist? That would include the VA of course.

The far left proves they do not understand such things..

 

[Kosh]

Wrong! The far left wants government to control every aspect of your life, you know the examples you just posted..

Which is why you vote far left without question or hesitation..

Also a far left drone (like you) pretending to be a "Liberal" should offend every true "Liberal" out there.

The far left wants to eliminate government, the far right is authoritarian and wants to control everything and everyone.

Regulated capitalism is what we have, and what capitalists want to see go away. Without regulations, who or what would save capitalism from the capitalists?

The pollution is a short term, temporary problem and it beats the fuck out of starvation and poverty

Q. Short term pollution means exactly what?

A. In X amount of years, when cancers spike in teens and adults, frogs grow 8 legs and human babies are still born or born deformed, an EPA will be established, a Superfund will be created, and a crazy right wing will develop opposing the expenditure of money to clean up the mess, which no amount of evidence will every convince this crowd that pollution was the cause.

This is an argument the ideologues consistently lose because people don't want to live in pollution and recognize the harm that it causes to them and their families.

Clean water and clean air transcend political parties.

I wish it did. We can see the Republican Party is not talking about clean water, clean air and the preservation of soil. They speak in terms of too much regulation of the fossil fuel and chemical industries.

When was the last time a Republican - not called a RINO - spoke of environmental protection?

Far left propaganda based on religious dogma.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Can anyone name a pure capitalisic or socialistic society today? There really isn't a nation on earth that the government doesn't play a part in investing in their country and regulating the business structure.

A purely capitalistic society would suck...

.000001% of the people would get ahead and everyone else would be slaves for it.
Maybe Cuba could be said to be the most socialistic society... The thing is such a society doesn't make wealth. Truthfully, you on the right do have a point. But, you don't see the whole picture.

 

[Political Junky]

Isn't our military Socialist? That would include the VA of course.

The far left proves they do not understand such things..

Please explain why the military is not Socialist or the VA?

 

[Kosh]

Isn't our military Socialist? That would include the VA of course.

The far left proves they do not understand such things..

Please explain why the military is not Socialist or the VA?

See the far left posts bunk and expects others to prove them wrong!

They want you to prove a negative.

 

[Political Junky]

Isn't our military Socialist? That would include the VA of course.

The far left proves they do not understand such things..

Please explain why the military is not Socialist or the VA?

See the far left posts bunk and expects others to prove them wrong!

They want you to prove a negative.

Thanks, you have no argument.

 

[SwimExpert]

Please explain why the military is not Socialist or the VA?

The burden of proof is on you.

 

[Kosh]

Isn't our military Socialist? That would include the VA of course.

The far left proves they do not understand such things..

Please explain why the military is not Socialist or the VA?

See the far left posts bunk and expects others to prove them wrong!

They want you to prove a negative.

Thanks, you have no argument.

Even more proof that the far left does not understand what they post, but expect others to prove them wrong!

The mentality of a two year old..

 

[Kosh]

Please explain why the military is not Socialist or the VA?

The burden of proof is on you.

Sorry you can NOT prove a negative.

 

[Bfgrn]

In my opinion - a blend of the two is the best because each tends to assume that humane nature is better than it really is.

I don't believe there is any getting away from that reality.

socialism took root in places where there was never even the faintest hint of Free Market Capitalism and it has become more popular than it deserves to be.

I disagree - look at the so-called Gilded Age in America. That was the height of unfettered, unregulated capitalism and it was certainly free market capitalism. Not only was it a period of huge economic opportunity and wealth for some, it was a period of grinding poverty, abuse, and desperation for many, which made socialism and communism and easy sell.

In any case, socialism, or a form of it (social democracy seems most likely) will be the next great experiment for this Country.

And it will fail. It always has, it always will.

I'm not sure I see that. America was founded on individualism and free enterprise. It's culture is distinctly different from Europe. I can see some forms of socialism, such as health care (and I support it) making inroads as a matter of practical necessity. I can not see any large-scale socialist institutions developing. It's already quite clear that socialism as an economic model, doesn't work well and state owned industries don't perform as well as privately owned industries and socialist systems don't tend to inspire entrepeneurship which I think is a very American ideal.

But at least, maybe we can avoid the cataclysmic Wars socialism caused in the 20th Century.

Yes..... National Socialism WAS socialism. You may not think so, professorial eggheads may deny it (because they don't want the word 'socialism' attached to it) but you know what....?

The people that invented it thought it was socialism and that's what counts. What you, or anybody else, thinks of it is irrelevant..... THEY thought it was socialism.

Watch the greatest propaganda film ever made (Triumph of the will) if you don't believe me)

Well, I disagree again - National Socialism, as per Nazi's was not really socialist, it was anti-socialist/anti-comunist and more fascist in my opinion. Anyone can call themselves anything - after all, NK is the "Democratic" People's Republic of Korea.

I think there are merits to socialism that can be incorporated into a capitalist economy.

But people will continue to delude themselves as to the nature of what socialism is.... It's human nature. One of the more onerous aspects of human nature -- To deny reality in favor of what you want.

Socialism is/was the most murderous form of government/economy ever devised by Man.

Period.

end rant

Human nature makes a mockery of many well thought out systems. Socialism, Capitalism, Communism...they look good in theory, and on paper, but people refuse to behave the way they are supposed to. That's why I think taking the best from each makes sense.

The Gilded Age brought about a groundswell that brought us as close to socialism as America has ever been. Franklin D. Roosevelt saved capitalism.

How FDR Saved Capitalism Hoover Institution

 

[defcon4]

Democracy - Not The Free Market - Will Save America s Middle Class Thom Hartmann

Thomas Carl "Thom" Hartmann (born May 7, 1951) is an American radio host, author, former psychotherapist,[2] entrepreneur, and progressive political commentator. Hartmann has hosted a nationally syndicated radio show, The Thom Hartmann Program, since 2003 and a nightly television show, The Big Picture, since 2008.
Really? He has an unbiased opinion, I am sure.
He is talking about corporations use public roads, fire department, police…etc provided by the government. Last time I checked we the taxpayers provided for those public services - government administers them, not too efficiently, I could say - and corporations pay taxes too. Last time I checked governments did not produce anything to generate wealth. Well, governments print FIAT MONEY up to the ass causing inflation.

 

[Kosh]

In my opinion - a blend of the two is the best because each tends to assume that humane nature is better than it really is.

I don't believe there is any getting away from that reality.

socialism took root in places where there was never even the faintest hint of Free Market Capitalism and it has become more popular than it deserves to be.

I disagree - look at the so-called Gilded Age in America. That was the height of unfettered, unregulated capitalism and it was certainly free market capitalism. Not only was it a period of huge economic opportunity and wealth for some, it was a period of grinding poverty, abuse, and desperation for many, which made socialism and communism and easy sell.

In any case, socialism, or a form of it (social democracy seems most likely) will be the next great experiment for this Country.

And it will fail. It always has, it always will.

I'm not sure I see that. America was founded on individualism and free enterprise. It's culture is distinctly different from Europe. I can see some forms of socialism, such as health care (and I support it) making inroads as a matter of practical necessity. I can not see any large-scale socialist institutions developing. It's already quite clear that socialism as an economic model, doesn't work well and state owned industries don't perform as well as privately owned industries and socialist systems don't tend to inspire entrepeneurship which I think is a very American ideal.

But at least, maybe we can avoid the cataclysmic Wars socialism caused in the 20th Century.

Yes..... National Socialism WAS socialism. You may not think so, professorial eggheads may deny it (because they don't want the word 'socialism' attached to it) but you know what....?

The people that invented it thought it was socialism and that's what counts. What you, or anybody else, thinks of it is irrelevant..... THEY thought it was socialism.

Watch the greatest propaganda film ever made (Triumph of the will) if you don't believe me)

Well, I disagree again - National Socialism, as per Nazi's was not really socialist, it was anti-socialist/anti-comunist and more fascist in my opinion. Anyone can call themselves anything - after all, NK is the "Democratic" People's Republic of Korea.

I think there are merits to socialism that can be incorporated into a capitalist economy.

But people will continue to delude themselves as to the nature of what socialism is.... It's human nature. One of the more onerous aspects of human nature -- To deny reality in favor of what you want.

Socialism is/was the most murderous form of government/economy ever devised by Man.

Period.

end rant

Human nature makes a mockery of many well thought out systems. Socialism, Capitalism, Communism...they look good in theory, and on paper, but people refuse to behave the way they are supposed to. That's why I think taking the best from each makes sense.

The Gilded Age brought about a groundswell that brought us as close to socialism as America has ever been. Franklin D. Roosevelt saved capitalism.

How FDR Saved Capitalism Hoover Institution

So FDR's lie to get the US in to WWII and attack a country that did not attack us is the hero of the far left, go figure that one.

Then again I bet this far left drone believes communist China is capitalism..

 

[SwimExpert]

Please explain why the military is not Socialist or the VA?

The burden of proof is on you.

Sorry you can NOT prove a negative.

That is why the burden of proof is on Political Junky. He needs to provide evidence that the military and VA are socialist.

 

[Kosh]

Please explain why the military is not Socialist or the VA?

The burden of proof is on you.

Sorry you can NOT prove a negative.

That is why the burden of proof is on Political Junky. He needs to provide evidence that the military and VA are socialist.

I understand that, but convincing a far left drone of that is impossible.