The Definition of A "Christian"

[Cecilie1200]

Jesus the man, I admire and respect. The religion built up around him on the other hand, sucks MAJOR ass!!

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ".

- Mahatma Ghandi

"There was only 1 true Christian, and he died on a cross 2,000 years ago".

- Frederich Nietzsche

Out of curiosity, WHY do you admire and respect Jesus as a person?

 

[Dr Grump]

There are a tonne of definitions of a Christian - depends on the denomination..

 

[Cecilie1200]

I had a Christian friend tell me tonight that the best definition of a Christian was someone who sincerely believed that he was absolutely wrong about his faith in Jesus.

I said (and I quote) "What the fuck?!?!"

He said, "Yeah, a true Christian is someone who loves his fellow man enough to sincerely hope that he is wrong about his faith because if he is wrong, then everyone he knows who doesn't know and accept Jesus gets a pass, but if he is right, then everyone he knows who doesn't know and accept Jesus goes to hell to burn forever. Therefore, if a Christian is true to the concept of 'love' (willingness to lay your life down for a friend), he sincerely hopes he is wrong about the Gospel, and everyone just dies, or gets to the next level on their own merit and the concept of 'hell' is rendered moot."

Is this true? Can love actually transcend the bullshit?

Please don't flame this one - I really want to know if love can possibly be this selfless and powerful.

-Joe

As a Born again Christian, I believe that a true believer prays that God will make a way for all people, not because they feel sorry for them, but because they truly love them with the love that God has placed in their hearts. It is like hoping that you are wrong, but actually it is believing God at any cost, knowing in your heart that God ia the Almighty.

True believers believe the Scriptures, and if we understand it completely and correctly, the idea of Hell is real and eternal. I believe we can pray, and even hope that we might have it understood wrongly, not that the scriptures are wrong, just our understanding of them.

We can pray that, however, in order to do as God has commanded we must believe there is a fire, and that we must warn everyone. If the Holy Spirit reveals with new clarity that we have understood it incorrectly, there will most certainly be something more to it than "we just die and that is the end," or "there really is no Hell, and everyonr gets a pass."

I have personally thought a lot about this, and my love for humanity, and life causes me to pray that there is something missing in our understanding. I will continue to follow my faith in the scriptures the way I understand them until God reveals with more clarity that there is really something else in the plan. Even a second chance after death would be nice. I believe God is a God of second chances, but AI also believe He is just and righteous in all of His plans.

Hope I have been clear enough for you to understand.

It is a pretty clear presentation of part of the 'gospel' message and a pretty clear presentation of your views on the matter. Thank you.

It still begs the question though: Are there any Christians out there who understand agape love (the willingness to lay ones life on the line for another) enough to hope, at great personal sacrifice, that Christian teachings about Heaven and Hell are wrong.

-Joe

Now why would I consider it "love" to hope that, instead of having the possibility of eternal life in Heaven, humans simply snuff out like a candle flame? I love my fellow man by rejoicing that that is not the case, praying that they will all realize the truth, and grieving at the pigheaded self-destruction so many cling to, not by wishing ill on everyone to spare some an even worse ill they choose for themselves.

 

[Smartt33]

It is a pretty clear presentation of part of the 'gospel' message and a pretty clear presentation of your views on the matter. Thank you.

It still begs the question though: Are there any Christians out there who understand agape love (the willingness to lay ones life on the line for another) enough to hope, at great personal sacrifice, that Christian teachings about Heaven and Hell are wrong.

-Joe

I think that agape love would be expressed more in praying for those who are not believers, for their salvation, than for us to hope that the teachings are wreong. We believe what we believe is true. As believers, we also would be willing to step out of the box to express the truth to people around us. That brings on wrath, even the USA now days.

I know that I will love those who are not believers enough to stand strong in the faith, as Ephesions says when it addresses the Armor of God. Willingness to stand strong is an expression of great love. To hope that what we believe is wrong is not good enough to be agape love.

God loves us and receives us as we are, but His love for us is so awesome that He will not leave us in the condition we are in. God loves us, not because of who we are, butr because of who He is.

Thanks. I like the way you put it - I guess asking believers if they would be willing to wish their salvation void and meaningless so that others would be spared the torture of hell is like asking a bride if she would be willing to accept a mediocre marriage if doing so would guarantee that her sister wouldn't be abused in hers....

"Thank (insert the Deity of your choice here) for free will. Here is hoping that the dumb bitch makes as good a choice about forever as I have, but she is on her own with that choice..."

It is part of the art of being human I suppose.

Thanks again for answering from the heart.

-Joe

You make a very good point here. It is about individual and personal choices. We cannot make choices for others. We can show them a way that is good, and we can hope and even pray that they will go in that direction. We might even make some sacrifices that would encourage a positive choice. However, that is pretty much were we have to let go. Romans one says that God has made Himself known to everyone, and at that point all excuses have been invalidated.

 

[Al Gunn]

I think that agape love would be expressed more in praying for those who are not believers, for their salvation, than for us to hope that the teachings are wreong. We believe what we believe is true. As believers, we also would be willing to step out of the box to express the truth to people around us. That brings on wrath, even the USA now days.

I know that I will love those who are not believers enough to stand strong in the faith, as Ephesions says when it addresses the Armor of God. Willingness to stand strong is an expression of great love. To hope that what we believe is wrong is not good enough to be agape love.

God loves us and receives us as we are, but His love for us is so awesome that He will not leave us in the condition we are in. God loves us, not because of who we are, butr because of who He is.

Thanks. I like the way you put it - I guess asking believers if they would be willing to wish their salvation void and meaningless so that others would be spared the torture of hell is like asking a bride if she would be willing to accept a mediocre marriage if doing so would guarantee that her sister wouldn't be abused in hers....

"Thank (insert the Deity of your choice here) for free will. Here is hoping that the dumb bitch makes as good a choice about forever as I have, but she is on her own with that choice..."

It is part of the art of being human I suppose.

Thanks again for answering from the heart.

-Joe

You make a very good point here. It is about individual and personal choices. We cannot make choices for others. We can show them a way that is good, and we can hope and even pray that they will go in that direction. We might even make some sacrifices that would encourage a positive choice. However, that is pretty much were we have to let go. Romans one says that God has made Himself known to everyone, and at that point all excuses have been invalidated.

Smartt, I've almost given up waiting for you to make any sense. God created us to not know whether he's there or not, why do you keep trying to go against god's will and pretend that you know he's there? It's obvious that you don't. And why would he make us to not know whether he exists or not, and then want us to search for him?
Purdy please, in your answer, try to make some sense.

 

[ABikerSailor]

There are a tonne of definitions of a Christian - depends on the denomination..

Gotta agree with the Doc on this one. Defining yourself as a "christian" or not, kinda depends on how you interpret the Bible. Look at the differences between 2 groups who use the same book........Northern and Southern Baptist.

And..........the Christians (as they currently believe), are WRONG.

Yeshua didn't come to replace the law (Torah), He came to expand upon it and bring it to the people who WEREN'T Jewish. He also renewed the covenant between God and the descendants of Abraham (remember......Yeshua was Jewish).

Now......when Rome sacked Jerusalem after they killed Yeshua, they took the teachings He'd laid down, and modified them to suit their own needs (i.e. control of the various pagan nations Rome had), which is why Easter is on the Spring Solstice (complete with Sunrise Service), when in reality, Easter should ALWAYS come after Passover, which is why Yeshua was in Jerusalem in the first place.

They also did it with the Winter Solstice, which is what the Catholics determined (as per the pagan customs of Rome), was the birth of Yeshua, when in reality it was more like October.

Now.......with that kind of start off, as well as with the heavy editing of the Bible by the Niecine council (because they were deciding what the common people would be allowed access to), is it any wonder why your friend said what they said? They hope they're wrong because they can SEE that they're wrong!

And......they want to save others from making the same fatal mistake!

 

[Al Gunn]

There are a tonne of definitions of a Christian - depends on the denomination..

Gotta agree with the Doc on this one. Defining yourself as a "christian" or not, kinda depends on how you interpret the Bible. Look at the differences between 2 groups who use the same book........Northern and Southern Baptist.

And..........the Christians (as they currently believe), are WRONG.

Yeshua didn't come to replace the law (Torah), He came to expand upon it and bring it to the people who WEREN'T Jewish. He also renewed the covenant between God and the descendants of Abraham (remember......Yeshua was Jewish).

Now......when Rome sacked Jerusalem after they killed Yeshua, they took the teachings He'd laid down, and modified them to suit their own needs (i.e. control of the various pagan nations Rome had), which is why Easter is on the Spring Solstice (complete with Sunrise Service), when in reality, Easter should ALWAYS come after Passover, which is why Yeshua was in Jerusalem in the first place.

They also did it with the Winter Solstice, which is what the Catholics determined (as per the pagan customs of Rome), was the birth of Yeshua, when in reality it was more like October.

Now.......with that kind of start off, as well as with the heavy editing of the Bible by the Niecine council (because they were deciding what the common people would be allowed access to), is it any wonder why your friend said what they said? They hope they're wrong because they can SEE that they're wrong!

And......they want to save others from making the same fatal mistake!

Doesn't seem like it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that a christian is a follower of the teaching of Jesus Christ. Geez, you religionites really need to find a secret meaning in everything, don't you?

 

[ABikerSailor]

Wrong I'll Smoke Anyone's Gunn..........

Just exactly HOW do people follow Yeshua? I certainly don't see it in the current crop of Christians who are trying to force others to believe as they believe. Catholics, Protestants, as well as quite a few other faiths, use the KJV Bible.

Some interpretations are directly opposite the beliefs of other groups. Ever hear of 7th Day Adventists? How about Jehova's Witnesses? Most of their beliefs (using the same book), are against the beliefs of Baptists, Catholics and Church of Christ.

And then.....let's talk about drinking...........

It is said in the Bible that "wine was a gift from God to gladden the hearts of men". It also states in the Bible that one of the first things that Noah did when he went outside of the Ark the first time was to plant grapes so that he could make wine.

Now............exactly WHY are people against drinking? God isn't. And that's just one example (remember......Yeshua drank wine).

So yeah......if you are a "follower of Yesha", then don't you think you should act and do like He did? Even including miracles.

If you don't know what I'm talking about in the last sentence, read "Illusions" by Richard Bach, and then follow it up with Jonathan Livingston Seagull.

 

[Sky Dancer]

"No one is like Christ because we aren't perfect beings."

Actually, there are human beings who are Christ-like. I wonder how many of them consider themselves 'Christians'?

 

[Smartt33]

Thanks. I like the way you put it - I guess asking believers if they would be willing to wish their salvation void and meaningless so that others would be spared the torture of hell is like asking a bride if she would be willing to accept a mediocre marriage if doing so would guarantee that her sister wouldn't be abused in hers....

"Thank (insert the Deity of your choice here) for free will. Here is hoping that the dumb bitch makes as good a choice about forever as I have, but she is on her own with that choice..."

It is part of the art of being human I suppose.

Thanks again for answering from the heart.

-Joe

You make a very good point here. It is about individual and personal choices. We cannot make choices for others. We can show them a way that is good, and we can hope and even pray that they will go in that direction. We might even make some sacrifices that would encourage a positive choice. However, that is pretty much were we have to let go. Romans one says that God has made Himself known to everyone, and at that point all excuses have been invalidated.

Smartt, I've almost given up waiting for you to make any sense. God created us to not know whether he's there or not, why do you keep trying to go against god's will and pretend that you know he's there? It's obvious that you don't. And why would he make us to not know whether he exists or not, and then want us to search for him?
Purdy please, in your answer, try to make some sense.

You will not see me agreeing that God doesn't want us to know Him. He is pursuing us, as I mentioned earlied. He showed Himself to people in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament. He has revealed Himself in His very creation, but men don't choose to see. He has spoke through His Word, the Bible, and people choose not to hear. He has personally let us all experience His love, and many have ignored His touch. We do seek Him, but usually in places where we want to find Him, not where He actually might be. Man laughs at Him when things are going smoothly, and blame Him when they go bad, but at the same time say He is not real.

It is the foolish things of the Gospel that are the powerful things of God, unto salvation according to His mighty plan.

Deny it, that is easy. Call it lies, a myth, that is the easy way out. They hide from it, but in that hiding people become prisoners of the darkness. It will remain to be true that the Gospel of Christ is the very power that causes salvation.

Am I unclear? Maybe, but unless you seek understanding, your denial will always make the Gospel unclear.

If I don't make sense, I challenge you to HONESTLY and sincerely go to the Bible for answers. Remember, I said honestly and sincerely.

 

[Al Gunn]

You make a very good point here. It is about individual and personal choices. We cannot make choices for others. We can show them a way that is good, and we can hope and even pray that they will go in that direction. We might even make some sacrifices that would encourage a positive choice. However, that is pretty much were we have to let go. Romans one says that God has made Himself known to everyone, and at that point all excuses have been invalidated.

Smartt, I've almost given up waiting for you to make any sense. God created us to not know whether he's there or not, why do you keep trying to go against god's will and pretend that you know he's there? It's obvious that you don't. And why would he make us to not know whether he exists or not, and then want us to search for him?
Purdy please, in your answer, try to make some sense.

You will not see me agreeing that God doesn't want us to know Him. He is pursuing us, as I mentioned earlied. He showed Himself to people in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament. He has revealed Himself in His very creation, but men don't choose to see. He has spoke through His Word, the Bible, and people choose not to hear. He has personally let us all experience His love, and many have ignored His touch. We do seek Him, but usually in places where we want to find Him, not where He actually might be. Man laughs at Him when things are going smoothly, and blame Him when they go bad, but at the same time say He is not real.

It is the foolish things of the Gospel that are the powerful things of God, unto salvation according to His mighty plan.

Deny it, that is easy. Call it lies, a myth, that is the easy way out. They hide from it, but in that hiding people become prisoners of the darkness. It will remain to be true that the Gospel of Christ is the very power that causes salvation.

Am I unclear? Maybe, but unless you seek understanding, your denial will always make the Gospel unclear.

If I don't make sense, I challenge you to HONESTLY and sincerely go to the Bible for answers. Remember, I said honestly and sincerely.

That was your last chance... and you blew it!

So god made man, but made him so he couldn't see god, then expected man to search for god? Then showed himself to man and was still ignored? Then lets his only son die on a cross in his undies? Dude's a pretty dumb god. Sure you want to be following/looking for such a doofus? What's the fucking point?

The bible is a bunch of mumbo jumbo that's practically not even English, and that can be interpreted any way you want because of the ambiguity of the texts.

 

[ABikerSailor]

It only says what you want it to if you use English.

Remember.......the Bible was originally written in Hebrew (Old Testament), and so therefore, if you want to know what it REALLY says, you should ask someone who knows Hebrew to translate it directly for you.

I don't trust too many preachers nowadays.

 

[Smartt33]

Smartt, I've almost given up waiting for you to make any sense. God created us to not know whether he's there or not, why do you keep trying to go against god's will and pretend that you know he's there? It's obvious that you don't. And why would he make us to not know whether he exists or not, and then want us to search for him?
Purdy please, in your answer, try to make some sense.

You will not see me agreeing that God doesn't want us to know Him. He is pursuing us, as I mentioned earlied. He showed Himself to people in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament. He has revealed Himself in His very creation, but men don't choose to see. He has spoke through His Word, the Bible, and people choose not to hear. He has personally let us all experience His love, and many have ignored His touch. We do seek Him, but usually in places where we want to find Him, not where He actually might be. Man laughs at Him when things are going smoothly, and blame Him when they go bad, but at the same time say He is not real.

It is the foolish things of the Gospel that are the powerful things of God, unto salvation according to His mighty plan.

Deny it, that is easy. Call it lies, a myth, that is the easy way out. They hide from it, but in that hiding people become prisoners of the darkness. It will remain to be true that the Gospel of Christ is the very power that causes salvation.

Am I unclear? Maybe, but unless you seek understanding, your denial will always make the Gospel unclear.

If I don't make sense, I challenge you to HONESTLY and sincerely go to the Bible for answers. Remember, I said honestly and sincerely.

That was your last chance... and you blew it!

So god made man, but made him so he couldn't see god, then expected man to search for god? Then showed himself to man and was still ignored? Then lets his only son die on a cross in his undies? Dude's a pretty dumb god. Sure you want to be following/looking for such a doofus? What's the fucking point?

The bible is a bunch of mumbo jumbo that's practically not even English, and that can be interpreted any way you want because of the ambiguity of the texts.

You said, "So god made man, but made him so he couldn't see god, then expected man to search for god," However, that is not in anything that I have said at all, so I will not respond. God was with man in the beginning, how is it that man could not see Him? man became blinded by sin. (you might try reading/studying the Bible).

Your mocking, "Then lets his only son die on a cross in his undies " won't get you anywhere. It is just out of ignorance. May God help you.

Why are ytou even arguing this stuff, you know nothing about it, and you are driven by your hatred. You hate a God that you actually cannot deny has revealed Himself to you. You will say He hasn't, but He has. Read Romans 1, in that Book you hate. The Book you hate will be the very thing that condemns you someday.

 

[Al Gunn]

You will not see me agreeing that God doesn't want us to know Him. He is pursuing us, as I mentioned earlied. He showed Himself to people in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament. He has revealed Himself in His very creation, but men don't choose to see. He has spoke through His Word, the Bible, and people choose not to hear. He has personally let us all experience His love, and many have ignored His touch. We do seek Him, but usually in places where we want to find Him, not where He actually might be. Man laughs at Him when things are going smoothly, and blame Him when they go bad, but at the same time say He is not real.

It is the foolish things of the Gospel that are the powerful things of God, unto salvation according to His mighty plan.

Deny it, that is easy. Call it lies, a myth, that is the easy way out. They hide from it, but in that hiding people become prisoners of the darkness. It will remain to be true that the Gospel of Christ is the very power that causes salvation.

Am I unclear? Maybe, but unless you seek understanding, your denial will always make the Gospel unclear.

If I don't make sense, I challenge you to HONESTLY and sincerely go to the Bible for answers. Remember, I said honestly and sincerely.

That was your last chance... and you blew it!

So god made man, but made him so he couldn't see god, then expected man to search for god? Then showed himself to man and was still ignored? Then lets his only son die on a cross in his undies? Dude's a pretty dumb god. Sure you want to be following/looking for such a doofus? What's the fucking point?

The bible is a bunch of mumbo jumbo that's practically not even English, and that can be interpreted any way you want because of the ambiguity of the texts.

You said, "So god made man, but made him so he couldn't see god, then expected man to search for god," However, that is not in anything that I have said at all, so I will not respond. God was with man in the beginning, how is it that man could not see Him? man became blinded by sin. (you might try reading/studying the Bible).

Your mocking, "Then lets his only son die on a cross in his undies " won't get you anywhere. It is just out of ignorance. May God help you.

Why are ytou even arguing this stuff, you know nothing about it, and you are driven by your hatred. You hate a God that you actually cannot deny has revealed Himself to you. You will say He hasn't, but He has. Read Romans 1, in that Book you hate. The Book you hate will be the very thing that condemns you someday.

That's pretty much exactly what you said, but I understand you won't address, cuz it makes no sense at all. And why would a great god let his son die on a cross in his undies (or is it a diaper?)? That's pretty embarassing, if you ask me. The guy who came up with that image obviously didn't think it through.
I have no hate towards anyone who reads the bible or towards your imaginary god. But they might try translating it into english, although I'm not sure that it would make any more sense, but it might.
So tell me, o wise one, how has god revealed himself to me? And how do you know that it's not Herself?

 

[ABikerSailor]

Actually........God is both male and female. Says so in the Torah, and, if you think about it, it's reflected even today.

God made mankind in His/Her own image.

Which is why we have male and female.

However.............most of God is in the female. They are the only ones of the species that can create life.

Kinda makes you wonder why IsLAME denigrates it's women so much.

 

[JBeukema]

It only says what you want it to if you use English.

Remember.......the Bible was originally written in Hebrew (Old Testament), and so therefore, if you want to know what it REALLY says, you should ask someone who knows Hebrew to translate it directly for you.

I don't trust too many preachers nowadays.

wait.... so your god can't protect its word during translation.. or it won't?


Can't, or won't? Which is it?

Or is it both?

 

[ABikerSailor]

Like I said........you should really look up the Universal Torah Network, as well as check with a couple of rabbis.

In the Hebrew, it is always the same. Matter of fact, Rome wanted 70 Torah scrolls after they'd sacked Jerusalem. Up to that time, they'd always expected to have various differences between the books, but when they inspected the Torah scrolls?

Every last one of 'em was exactly like the others. Matter of fact, not one jot or tittle was changed between the 70 scrolls.

So yeah.....God can protect it during translation. But........you need a devout follower (not Christian), who has studied BOTH books, the Old as well as the New Testaments.

 

[JBeukema]

So yeah.....God can protect it during translation. .

Then it chose not to, and is therefore not merciful or desiring that all should know the word of god and be saved and praise and seek and know god

the taoist has successfully refuted one of the tenets of Christianity

 

[ABikerSailor]

No......obviously you don't understand the concept of free will.

It's not that God messes up the translation, it is because of free will that men can (and usually do, in search of their own petty desires).

Nope.........no refuting here. Quit putting words in my mouth or twisting what I say Jelly Butt Licker.

 

[JBeukema]

Now it is you who draws strawmen and misrepresents my words- a standard tactic of your