The debates

[Hollie]

When Israel ceases to be the enemy, things might change

The inventor of Islam made Judaism (and Christianity), ''enemies'' of the politico-religius ideoogy he invented.

 

[USAF 2023]

When Israel ceases to be the enemy, things might change

Non answer to my question. Still doesn’t explain why it’s become their “ Official Policy” or why Israel should just give in to every demand in the hope it “ might” change
Realistically, Why should the Israelis believe it may be different this time then prior to 1967?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Egyptian border with Pal'istan? You have insisted that Pal'istan was invented by the Treaty of Lausanne in 1924.

And Egypt had an already established international border. That border was honored as a treaty border.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Borders
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

BLUF: Are you really that foolish?

Holy irrelevance, Batman!

(COMMENT)

Oh for heaven's sake. I want to see the Palestinians lay claim to Jordan. Oh, wait! The PLO already tested that theory and got kicked out of Jordan.

IF the Israelis or any other country have sovereign control, THEN it is theirs by the Right of Self-Determination. And they will be determined to keep their sovereign territory.

It is the people who have sovereignty not a government or state.

Notice that "government" or "state" are not mentioned.

(COMMENT)

Reference (Because you need to understand what the words mean that you are using.). I've highlighted in RED the most important passages as it related to my commentary. The flaw in your absolute statement is given by the example of Saudi Arabia. The King holds the sovereignty, not the people. The King is the law and holds all decisions in his hands as a command.

SELF-DETERMINATION​

The principle of self-determination receives only the briefest mention in the U.N. Charter: see arts. 1(2) and 55. On 14 December 1960 , the General Assembly adopted the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples (Res. 1514(XV)), which declared: ‘All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development’: art. 2. Similar assertions appeared in other declarations, e.g., Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations of 24 October 1970 ( see Friendly Relations Declaration ): General Assembly Res. 2625(XXV).​

SOURCE: Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law, Pg 549 Copyright ˝ 2009 by Oxford University Press, Inc.​

SOVEREIGNTY​

‘Sovereignty as a principle of international law must be sharply distinguished from other related uses of the term: sovereignty in its internal aspects and political sovereignty. Sovereignty in its internal aspects is concerned with the identity of the bearer of supreme authority within a State. This may be an individual or a collective unit. . . . In international relations, the scope of political sovereignty is still less limited [than that within a State]. Political sovereignty is the necessary concomitant of the lack of an effective international order and the constitutional weaknesses of the international superstructures which have so far been grafted on the law of unorganized international society. . . . [D]octrinal attempts at spiriting away sovereignty must remain meaningless. Actually, such efforts appear to minimise unduly the fundamental character of the principle of legal sovereignty within the realm of international law. The rules underlying this principle derive their importance from the basic fact that “almost all international relations are bound up” with the independence of States. Thus, the principle of sovereignty in general, and that of territorial sovereignty in particular, remains of necessity the “point of departure in settling most questions that concern international relations” [ Island of Palmas Case ( 1928 ) 2 R.I.A.A. 829 at 839]’: Schwarzenberger , International Law (3rd ed.), 114–115.​

SOURCE: Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law, Pg 563-564 Copyright ˝ 2009 by Oxford University Press, Inc.​

​

TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY​

territorial integrity While art. 2(4) of the U.N. Charter proscribed the threat or use of force against, inter alia , ‘the territorial integrity . . . of any State’, no definition is provided as to what constitutes territorial integrity. Some commentators have pointed to the consequences of the absence of a definition.​

SOURCE: Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law, Pg 596-597 Copyright ˝ 2009 by Oxford University Press, Inc.​

​

TERRITORIAL SOVEREIGNTY​

territorial sovereignty This is an aspect of sovereignty, connoting the internal, rather than the external, manifestation of the principle of sovereignty. It is the ‘principle of the exclusive competence of the State in regard to its own territory . . . Territorial sovereignty is, in general, a situation recognized and delimited in space . . . [and] signifies independence. Independence in regard to a portion of the globe is the right to exercise therein, to the exclusion of any other State, the functions of a State’:​

SOURCE: Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law, Pg 598-599 Copyright ˝ 2009 by Oxford University Press, Inc.​

You have to remember - it is not all about the Arab Palestinian. Every Right that the Arab Palestinians claim is mimicked by the Rights held by the Israelis. The Rights of the Arab Palestinian do not trump the Rights of the Israeli.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hollie]

And Egypt had an already established international border. That border was honored as a treaty border.

There are ''honorary treaties'' and ''honorary borders'' recognized by Egypt?

Fascinating.

Can you provide a link to the text of such ''honorary treaty border''? I suppose ''honorary'' would suggest no written document so can you provide some evidence of such an ''honorary treaty border''?

I'm curious because if there is such an ''honary treaty border'' between Egypt and the Palestinians, such a treaty would be void because... you know... Palestinian is not a place.

 

[USAF 2023]

The Egyptian border with Pal'istan? You have insisted that Pal'istan was invented by the Treaty of Lausanne in 1924.

Notice he can’t or won’t answer my post above? I think we all know the answer

 

[Hollie]

Notice he can’t or won’t answer my post above? I think we all know the answer

It's always the same pattern of behavior with P F Tinmore. It will be:
a) sidestep
b) copy and paste a meaningless youtube video, or,
c) add a meaningless emoticon.

 

[rylah]

Who controls the media message on the Israel-Palestine conflict? | Inside Story​

What does it say about your cause
when even on Al-Jazeerah the closest you'll dare to "debate"
is to round someone with anti-Israel propagandist hoping some bs will stick?

Apparently Israelis have always been a minority,
that our enemies keep arguing on mere numeric advantage,
is because they know they have no chance in a debate based on facts.

 

[P F Tinmore]

A New Approach: The Palestinian Struggle (July 30th Session)- A Jewish Home vs A Jewish State​

 

[P F Tinmore]

On 14 December 1960 , the General Assembly adopted the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples (Res. 1514(XV)), which declared: ‘All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status...

According to you, the colonial settlers also have the right to self determination. That negates decolonization. So what would be the point?

You don't make any sense.

 

[USAF 2023]

What does it say about your cause
when even on Al-Jazeerah the closest you'll dare to "debate"
is to round someone with anti-Israel propagandist hoping some bs will stick?

Apparently Israelis have always been a minority,
that our enemies keep arguing on mere numeric advantage,
is because they know they have no chance in a debate based on facts.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Borders
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

BLUF: You are just so confused. There is a difference between "decolonization" and Independence to "Colonial." Countries.

According to you, the colonial settlers also have the right to self determination. That negates decolonization. So what would be the point?

You don't make any sense.

(COMMENT)

FIRST

According to C-24, there are no colonial holdings anywhere in the Middle East. I don't know why you keep bringing up the non-binding Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples (A/RES/15/1514). The C-24 Special Committee annually reviews the list of Non-Self-Governing Territories (NSGT). Go read it yourself. There is no territory in the Middle East even mentioned. WHEN the Special Committee makes that determination, THEN let me know. Otherwise, get a new stick.

SECOND

Even IF A/RES/15/1514 did apply, it is NON-BINDING (It is NOT Law).

THIRD

Even IF it was Binding, THAT doesn't change the fact that:

Paragraph 2 of the Resolution says that: ALL peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.​

​

FOURTH

The UN Charter [Article 1(2)] states: To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

(Ω´∑)

It is not according to me... It is according to the existing contemporary international law.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[USAF 2023]

A New Approach: The Palestinian Struggle (July 30th Session)- A Jewish Home vs A Jewish State​

Please show us where they speak about “ equal rights” in Gov”t, making sure their Voices are heard and they have some say in addition to having EQUAL RIGHTS to all their religious sites? The truth is; You can’t

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Borders
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

BLUF: You are just so confused. There is a difference between "decolonization" and Independence to "Colonial." Countries.


(COMMENT)

FIRST

According to C-24, there are no colonial holdings anywhere in the Middle East. I don't know why you keep bringing up the non-binding Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples (A/RES/15/1514). The C-24 Special Committee annually reviews the list of Non-Self-Governing Territories (NSGT). Go read it yourself. There is no territory in the Middle East even mentioned. WHEN the Special Committee makes that determination, THEN let me know. Otherwise, get a new stick.

SECOND

Even IF A/RES/15/1514 did apply, it is NON-BINDING (It is NOT Law).

THIRD

Even IF it was Binding, THAT doesn't change the fact that:

Paragraph 2 of the Resolution says that: ALL peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.​

​

FOURTH

The UN Charter [Article 1(2)] states: To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

(Ω´∑)

It is not according to me... It is according to the existing contemporary international law.

Most Respectfully,
R

You do not understand your own post.

Palestine is a territory defined by international borders. The League of Nations determined that Palestine was a state according to post war treaties.

The Palestinians have Palestinian nationality by international law and are citizens of Palestine by domestic law. The Palestinians, and nobody else, are the people of the place.

With this comes the right to self determination without external interference, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity. Also, no aggression, no conquest, and no annexation.

All of this hinges on one basic principle: No foreigners. No foreign power has the authority to change any of that.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Borders
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

BLUF: I'm fear you know not what you say.

Palestine is a territory defined by international borders. The League of Nations determined that Palestine was a state according to post war treaties.

(COMMENT)

You will find no such reference. The League of Nations (LoN) never was a party to a treaty. The Allied Powers wrote the Post-War Treaties. And the most prominent of those Allied Powers was The British Government. And it was the Allied powers that did not speak a single word about "Palestine" in the Treaty of Lausanne.

The International Borders of which you speak was the Territory subject to the Mandate for Palestine, which became the Government of Palestine for the Administration of Palestine. It was a legal Entity and NOT an Independent and Self-Governing Nation. In fact, the Arab Palestinians were not at all interested in establishing a government in cooperation with The British Government. Arab Palestinians were granted citizenship under the administrative authority of the British Government. That ended when the British Administration ended and the territory reverted to a legal entity.

The Palestinians have Palestinian nationality by international law and are citizens of Palestine by domestic law. The Palestinians, and nobody else, are the people of the place.

(COMMENT)

The Arab Palestinians (West of the Jordan) DID NOT acquire a Nationality did not acquire citizenship until the Jordanians annexed the territory.

A representative number of the Arab Palestinians were assembled into the Jordanian Parliament in 1950. However, that representation ended in 1988 when the Jordanians cut all ties with the Arab Palestinians west of the Jordan River.

( ∑ )

There are a number of Arab Palestinians that are under the impression that a nation was created under Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne. That is a false impression.

AND!

If it were any other people, any place else in the world, the Arab Palestinians would not hold the status of Refugees in any form if it were to be judged by any competent authority as citizens of the State of Palestine.

And that would be true to an even greater extent for the straphangers if it any of the Arab Palestinians were to have been covered by another nation (Like Jordan).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Arab Palestinians were granted citizenship under the administrative authority of the British Government. That ended when the British Administration ended and the territory reverted to a legal entity.

Where does it say that Palestinian citizenship will expire upon the exit of the Mandate?

Link?

 

[Hollie]

You do not understand your own post.

Palestine is a territory defined by international borders. The League of Nations determined that Palestine was a state according to post war treaties.

The Palestinians have Palestinian nationality by international law and are citizens of Palestine by domestic law. The Palestinians, and nobody else, are the people of the place.

With this comes the right to self determination without external interference, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity. Also, no aggression, no conquest, and no annexation.

All of this hinges on one basic principle: No foreigners. No foreign power has the authority to change any of that.

You seem to have confused your usual nonsense claim, that the Treaty of Lausanne invented the ''country of Pal'istan'' with a revised nonsense claim that the League of Nations invented the''county of Pal'istan.

It was 1967 when an Egyptian invented ''Pal'istanians'' but he never invented a country with that name.

Why don't you declare the invention of Pallyland as a ''new state'' and move on from there.

Link?

 

[Hollie]

Where does it say that Palestinian citizenship will expire upon the exit of the Mandate?

Link?

It's in the Treaty of Lausanne.

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Borders
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

BLUF: I'm fear you know not what you say.


(COMMENT)

You will find no such reference. The League of Nations (LoN) never was a party to a treaty. The Allied Powers wrote the Post-War Treaties. And the most prominent of those Allied Powers was The British Government. And it was the Allied powers that did not speak a single word about "Palestine" in the Treaty of Lausanne.

The International Borders of which you speak was the Territory subject to the Mandate for Palestine, which became the Government of Palestine for the Administration of Palestine. It was a legal Entity and NOT an Independent and Self-Governing Nation. In fact, the Arab Palestinians were not at all interested in establishing a government in cooperation with The British Government. Arab Palestinians were granted citizenship under the administrative authority of the British Government. That ended when the British Administration ended and the territory reverted to a legal entity.


(COMMENT)

The Arab Palestinians (West of the Jordan) DID NOT acquire a Nationality did not acquire citizenship until the Jordanians annexed the territory.

A representative number of the Arab Palestinians were assembled into the Jordanian Parliament in 1950. However, that representation ended in 1988 when the Jordanians cut all ties with the Arab Palestinians west of the Jordan River.

( ∑ )

There are a number of Arab Palestinians that are under the impression that a nation was created under Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne. That is a false impression.

AND!

If it were any other people, any place else in the world, the Arab Palestinians would not hold the status of Refugees in any form if it were to be judged by any competent authority as citizens of the State of Palestine.

And that would be true to an even greater extent for the straphangers if it any of the Arab Palestinians were to have been covered by another nation (Like Jordan).

Most Respectfully,
R

P F Tinmore said:

The Palestinians have Palestinian nationality by international law and are citizens of Palestine by domestic law. The Palestinians, and nobody else, are the people of the place.

Are you going to answer this or just dance around ?

 

[Hollie]

Are you going to answer this or just dance around ?

Are you going to make any effort to support your claims?