The death of true freedom

[spectrumc01]

Everyone speaks as though we actually have freedom, and have even been free for quite some time now. But in reality we gave up our freedom when we started living together in societies. It was subtle at first, when neighbors miles apart from one another started putting up fences, that is when we needed laws deciding how we are going to live with one another. At that moment true freedom ended.

Now as more and more people crowd together and their interaction with one another increase more and more laws must be made so we can live peaceably with each other. Each law restricts our freedom.

Now we fight with each other over whose freedom will be eliminated next in the form of a brand new law. Every session congress goes to work, and every session they pass laws. If they did not pass laws they would not have a job. If we keep sending them back to Washington they will keep passing laws that limit our freedom even more.

The first act of civilization was to declare freedom dead.

 

[peach174]

The Death of American freedom started 100 years ago with creeping more and more government.
Now it's gotten so large we have government taking care of us from the cradle to the grave and it's bankrupting us.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Everyone speaks as though we actually have freedom, and have even been free for quite some time now. But in reality we gave up our freedom when we started living together in societies. It was subtle at first, when neighbors miles apart from one another started putting up fences, that is when we needed laws deciding how we are going to live with one another. At that moment true freedom ended.

Now as more and more people crowd together and their interaction with one another increase more and more laws must be made so we can live peaceably with each other. Each law restricts our freedom.

Now we fight with each other over whose freedom will be eliminated next in the form of a brand new law. Every session congress goes to work, and every session they pass laws. If they did not pass laws they would not have a job. If we keep sending them back to Washington they will keep passing laws that limit our freedom even more.

The first act of civilization was to declare freedom dead.

You might have given up your freedom, but that does not mean everyone has. Laws do not make good neighbors, nor do they give us peace. This can easily be demonstrated by the fact that, as a result of a new laws that were enacted about 40 years ago, we actually have less peace and more crimes.

 

[B. Kidd]

Freedom isn't free......so do everything you can to hang onto your job.

 

[code1211]

Everyone speaks as though we actually have freedom, and have even been free for quite some time now. But in reality we gave up our freedom when we started living together in societies. It was subtle at first, when neighbors miles apart from one another started putting up fences, that is when we needed laws deciding how we are going to live with one another. At that moment true freedom ended.

Now as more and more people crowd together and their interaction with one another increase more and more laws must be made so we can live peaceably with each other. Each law restricts our freedom.

Now we fight with each other over whose freedom will be eliminated next in the form of a brand new law. Every session congress goes to work, and every session they pass laws. If they did not pass laws they would not have a job. If we keep sending them back to Washington they will keep passing laws that limit our freedom even more.

The first act of civilization was to declare freedom dead.

On the contrary, without society and the incumbant laws and regulation, there can be no individual freedom.

Everything about society is the orchestration of the efforts of the many to ease the strain of survival and increase the individual's ability to conduct himself in a manner that is free of fear and directed by reason and spitituality.

Without Society and the incumbant laws and regulation, we are subjects to the whims of those who are more strong or malevolent among us. Without society, there can be no freedom.

The charachteristics of the society in which we we live can enhance or deprive freedoms relative to the ideal, but, absent society, there is no freedom.

This is why those who seek to dominate through fear and terror seek first to dismantle society or choose to operate in areas already devoid of functioning social structures.

 

[Truthmatters]

Good post code1211,

How I wish some of these people would study the world and human history before they spew silly crap like this OP.

He seems to know nothing about human kind and reality

 

[Ernie S.]

Everyone speaks as though we actually have freedom, and have even been free for quite some time now. But in reality we gave up our freedom when we started living together in societies. It was subtle at first, when neighbors miles apart from one another started putting up fences, that is when we needed laws deciding how we are going to live with one another. At that moment true freedom ended.

Now as more and more people crowd together and their interaction with one another increase more and more laws must be made so we can live peaceably with each other. Each law restricts our freedom.

Now we fight with each other over whose freedom will be eliminated next in the form of a brand new law. Every session congress goes to work, and every session they pass laws. If they did not pass laws they would not have a job. If we keep sending them back to Washington they will keep passing laws that limit our freedom even more.

The first act of civilization was to declare freedom dead.

Let's put this in very simple terms:
If you mean society has restricted your freedom to take what's mine, you don't deserve freedom.

 

[Nemo]

I think it demands a reexamination of our values; and, more fundamentally, what we stand for as Americans. Do we stand for freedom and equality? Freedom and equality are ideals; but, absent a perfect world, no one can live in society and be entirely free or completely equal. For every freedom there is a corresponding obligation to others, and equality is limited to the extent that such obligations are mutual, and others do not demand rights without responsibility for their exercise. In this, the promise of America is not freedom and equality, but rather liberty and equal opportunity and justice under law. However, such promise cannot be kept when government instituted by men favors the few in derogation of the many, or serves the special interests at the expense of the public interest, and when the rich and powerful can have more justice than the poor and oppressed.

America is a nation of laws and not men. But the law can be both used and abused by men; and so it is the duty and responsibility of every citizen to oversee those who make and enforce the laws and administer justice lest our democratic institutions be turned into a tyranny over us.

 

[Truthmatters]

Democracy has no automatic setting.

It takes the people keeping informed and being able to see whos lying to them.

There is no auto setting for capitalism either.

It will devolve into one guy owning everything.

That is why the game monopoly was invented so that children could learn for themselves how unrestrained capitalism works out in the end.

Some never learned the lesson.

 

[spectrumc01]

Look at it this way...

If you lived by yourself in the middle of nowhere you would have complete freedom to do what ever you want. You could literally do anything. Hunt your own food when and whatever it happens to be. Unlike in society where we have hunting and fishing seasons to restrict our freedom.

Your house could be any size and built anywhere. Unlike in society where we have building codes and zoning laws restricting our freedom.

Living in the middle of nowhere you could grow anything you want, and as much or less of it as you wish. There would be no laws to retrict any aspect of that.

When you introduce others to this scenario you start dealing with a society where others freedoms begin to overlap, and when that happens laws must be introduced to keep the peace, and when that happens you start trading freedom for peace among one another.

When a group of people get together to live in a society laws are enacted and leaders are chosen. At this point one person becomes more important than the others and now we have a hierarchy along fading freedoms all in the name of co-existance.

All I'm saying is that we speak of limiting freedoms as if it our freedoms are under attack. Business rails against regulation claiming they want a free market. The people rail against and argue laws such as the Patriot act claiming a restiction of freedom. Groups of people speak of the freedom to marry whom ever they want claiming they have the freedom to do so. On and on it goes, but this is the sacrifice for living in a society, the limiting of freedoms. Is the limiting of freedoms good or bad? it depends on what side of the limiting your on. Every law is a restriction of freedom to someone, our government argues over whose freedom gets restricted, and the more time they spend in session the more laws get passed and the more freedoms get restricted.

 

[Truthseeker420]

freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose

 

[code1211]

freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose

Is that you, Kris?

 

[code1211]

Look at it this way...

If you lived by yourself in the middle of nowhere you would have complete freedom to do what ever you want. You could literally do anything. Hunt your own food when and whatever it happens to be. Unlike in society where we have hunting and fishing seasons to restrict our freedom.

Your house could be any size and built anywhere. Unlike in society where we have building codes and zoning laws restricting our freedom.

Living in the middle of nowhere you could grow anything you want, and as much or less of it as you wish. There would be no laws to retrict any aspect of that.

When you introduce others to this scenario you start dealing with a society where others freedoms begin to overlap, and when that happens laws must be introduced to keep the peace, and when that happens you start trading freedom for peace among one another.

When a group of people get together to live in a society laws are enacted and leaders are chosen. At this point one person becomes more important than the others and now we have a hierarchy along fading freedoms all in the name of co-existance.

All I'm saying is that we speak of limiting freedoms as if it our freedoms are under attack. Business rails against regulation claiming they want a free market. The people rail against and argue laws such as the Patriot act claiming a restiction of freedom. Groups of people speak of the freedom to marry whom ever they want claiming they have the freedom to do so. On and on it goes, but this is the sacrifice for living in a society, the limiting of freedoms. Is the limiting of freedoms good or bad? it depends on what side of the limiting your on. Every law is a restriction of freedom to someone, our government argues over whose freedom gets restricted, and the more time they spend in session the more laws get passed and the more freedoms get restricted.

\



You see remoteness as freedom. I see it as servitude to survival. When every waking moment is spent in pursuing the means of sustenance, to me, any freedom is lost in the mere pursuit of the means of subsistance.

Without society, we are little more than the crow eating the asshole out of a road-kill skunk on the highway to merely make it another day.

If that's freedom to you, you're welcome to it.

 

[dilloduck]

We're still free to do anything we want.

 

[code1211]

Good post code1211,

How I wish some of these people would study the world and human history before they spew silly crap like this OP.

He seems to know nothing about human kind and reality

The trick is to limit the intrusion of the society into the life of the individual.

Society should protect the integrity of the individual. The individual should contribute to the cohesion of the society.

If the society begins to deprive certain of its number of prevailing rights or responsibilities and to the extent that this happens, society has robbed the individual of the freedom that has been promised. Freedom is not a gift recieved from another. It is a harmony shared in a labor of love.

In the real world, the existance of law and the justice implied by the law is the web that holds society together. When leadership in the society departs from law, as our government seems to have been doing for at least the last 30 years, all of us are watching the freedoms we think we posess disappear.

We are frogs in water boiling.

 

[dilloduck]

Good post code1211,

How I wish some of these people would study the world and human history before they spew silly crap like this OP.

He seems to know nothing about human kind and reality

The trick is to limit the intrusion of the society into the life of the individual.

Society should protect the integrity of the individual. The individual should contribute to the cohesion of the society.

If the society begins to deprive certain of its number of prevailing rights or responsibilities and to the extent that this happens, society has robbed the individual of the freedom that has been promised. Freedom is not a gift recieved from another. It is a harmony shared in a labor of love.

In the real world, the existance of law and the justice implied by the law is the web that holds society together. When leadership in the society departs from law, as our government seems to have been doing for at least the last 30 years, all of us are watching the freedoms we think we posess disappear.

We are frogs in water boiling.

We are completely free do do what we whatever we want. Other people (society) can only punish us for doing what they don't approve of.

 

[AVG-JOE]

True freedom was lost 10,000 years ago, the moment 2+ families bonded to form a community with common goals and a chain of command.

21st century life is almost worth the cost that Western 'Civilization' exacted from humanity to bring it to us. Almost. Depends on what the next 20 years bring, and I'm optimistic.

 

[dilloduck]

True freedom was lost 10,000 years ago, the moment 2+ families bonded to form a community with common goals and a chain of command.

21st century life is almost worth the cost that Western 'Civilization' exacted from humanity to bring it to us. Almost. Depends on what the next 20 years bring, and I'm optimistic.

Giving up your freedom for order and false security is only voluntary.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Good post code1211,

How I wish some of these people would study the world and human history before they spew silly crap like this OP.

He seems to know nothing about human kind and reality

The trick is to limit the intrusion of the society into the life of the individual.

Society should protect the integrity of the individual. The individual should contribute to the cohesion of the society.

If the society begins to deprive certain of its number of prevailing rights or responsibilities and to the extent that this happens, society has robbed the individual of the freedom that has been promised. Freedom is not a gift recieved from another. It is a harmony shared in a labor of love.

In the real world, the existance of law and the justice implied by the law is the web that holds society together. When leadership in the society departs from law, as our government seems to have been doing for at least the last 30 years, all of us are watching the freedoms we think we posess disappear.

We are frogs in water boiling.

We are completely free do do what we whatever we want. Other people (society) can only punish us for doing what they don't approve of.

That's the only sane way to look at life in any society.

 

[AVG-JOE]

True freedom was lost 10,000 years ago, the moment 2+ families bonded to form a community with common goals and a chain of command.

21st century life is almost worth the cost that Western 'Civilization' exacted from humanity to bring it to us. Almost. Depends on what the next 20 years bring, and I'm optimistic.

Giving up your freedom for order and false security is only voluntary.

Perhaps up through the 1970's or so - but where is an anarchist to go these days?
The South Pacific is all Muslim, and Canada seems to be full.