The comming Obama economic collapse?

[Mac1958]

Yeah. Those home buyers sure took advantage of the banks. Bastards!

We can pretend these people are victims, or we can realize that no one forced them to sign on the dotted line and hold them accountable as adults for their decisions. They were greedy, the mortgage people were greedy, everybody was fuckin' greedy, and here we are. This was a team effort.
.

Another vivid example of why I no longer bother to engage you in conversation. As is the case with many other partisan ideologues, you seem simply incapable of being intellectually honest for any dependable length of time.

I didn't come close to saying that "those home buyers sure took advantage of the banks". In fact, and I've made the effort to put my own words in bold and red for you above, I said the "the mortgage people were greedy", and "this was a team effort".

As I wrote there, and as I've droned on and on about in countless other threads (many of which I'm sure you're read, since you clearly pay very close attention to my posts), the list of villains and culprits in the Meltdown is long and wide. If you want to concentrate your attention on Those Evil, Mean & Greedy Banks, that's your call. But that won't stop you from pretending I'm only blaming consumers, because that's the way you roll.

Seriously, please hump someone else's leg, play your tedious little games with someone else, thanks. Plenty of right-wing partisan ideologues around here for you.

Sheesh.

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[LoneLaugher]

No.

I enjoy having a discussion with you. I will continue to engage you......and maybe someday you will realize that my intentions where you are concerned are positive.

We disagree on this issue. I think homebuyers....in general....we're fucked by the banks. And the bank operators have yet to be punished. The home buyers have lost their homes and any investment that they made into them....however small. They were fucked.

Is there some culpability on their part? Sure.....they would have been well served to have a better understanding of the shithole they were buying into. But the problem is more of ignorance ( even willful ignorance ) than of greed.

Don't give up on me, Mac.

 

[zeke]

Mac, I wrote mortgage loans for 18 years. Consumers did get greedy and take advantage of the systemt that was put in place. Usually with the help of either 1. a real estate agent or 2. a mortgage loan officer.

Now you might ask what the two fields have in common (besides real estate), They are both paid on commission. Now you might ask what that meant to the consumer. It meant that every time a borrower got scared, cold feet, buyers remorse, what ever, that the borrower then had at least two people with their paychecks on the line to overcome all those fears and objections.

Now I don't know if you have ever had a commissioned sales job, but a good salesperson can be pretty effective in overcoming objections.

The one I used the most was; don't worry about that adjustable rate. In 12 months when you clean your credit up, I will refinance you to a better rate.

And on things like the 125% loans. Those were marketed to potential borrowers. People didn't just walk in and say they wanted to borrow 125% of their homes value. They were sold those loans. By a loan officer making a big commission.

So yea, people took advantage of the system put in place. But they sure didn't do it without the help of loan officers and real estate agents.

ANd the loan officers knew we were making bad loans. We would laugh about it. We would get reports about first payment defaults. Management knew what was going to happen. But with the ability to sell the mortgage off to an unsuspecting buyer, what was the risk?

It wasn't like the people making the loan were going to service the loan. Or even take a loss if it went bad.

Deregulating the banking industry caused this problem. It would have never ever happened IF the investment houses had been made to stay out of the mortage business. Like it had always been.
The mortgage industry was working just fine without all the junk loans introduced by the investment houses.

 

[rightwinger]

Mac, I wrote mortgage loans for 18 years. Consumers did get greedy and take advantage of the systemt that was put in place. Usually with the help of either 1. a real estate agent or 2. a mortgage loan officer.

Now you might ask what the two fields have in common (besides real estate), They are both paid on commission. Now you might ask what that meant to the consumer. It meant that every time a borrower got scared, cold feet, buyers remorse, what ever, that the borrower then had at least two people with their paychecks on the line to overcome all those fears and objections.

Now I don't know if you have ever had a commissioned sales job, but a good salesperson can be pretty effective in overcoming objections.

The one I used the most was; don't worry about that adjustable rate. In 12 months when you clean your credit up, I will refinance you to a better rate.

And on things like the 125% loans. Those were marketed to potential borrowers. People didn't just walk in and say they wanted to borrow 125% of their homes value. They were sold those loans. By a loan officer making a big commission.

So yea, people took advantage of the system put in place. But they sure didn't do it without the help of loan officers and real estate agents.

ANd the loan officers knew we were making bad loans. We would laugh about it. We would get reports about first payment defaults. Management knew what was going to happen. But with the ability to sell the mortgage off to an unsuspecting buyer, what was the risk?

It wasn't like the people making the loan were going to service the loan. Or even take a loss if it went bad.

Deregulating the banking industry caused this problem. It would have never ever happened IF the investment houses had been made to stay out of the mortage business. Like it had always been.
The mortgage industry was working just fine without all the junk loans introduced by the investment houses.

A big selling point at the time was "Don't worry about it, the house will go up $50,000 in the next six months" The housing market was in a frenzy. If you don't buy now, it will cost you much more later.
A classic bubble. When it burst, everyone took a bath

 

[Mr. Shaman]

The collapse of 2008 was caused by greed. Greed of people buying houses they couldn't afford. Greed of bankers letting them do it. Greed of our govt for pushing it. Something for nothing essentially.

I thought you "conservatives" preferred NOT blaming Bush, anymore!!

*

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKKvMJeBBSA]Q&A: Leslie & Andrew Cockburn - YouTube[/ame]


See: 5:00 thru 12:00


​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

The dollar is worth how much?

Still 100 pennies.

You Broward County Math-Majors really do need to start catching-up.​

 

[Mac1958]

Mac, I wrote mortgage loans for 18 years. Consumers did get greedy and take advantage of the systemt that was put in place. Usually with the help of either 1. a real estate agent or 2. a mortgage loan officer.

Now you might ask what the two fields have in common (besides real estate), They are both paid on commission. Now you might ask what that meant to the consumer. It meant that every time a borrower got scared, cold feet, buyers remorse, what ever, that the borrower then had at least two people with their paychecks on the line to overcome all those fears and objections.

Now I don't know if you have ever had a commissioned sales job, but a good salesperson can be pretty effective in overcoming objections.

The one I used the most was; don't worry about that adjustable rate. In 12 months when you clean your credit up, I will refinance you to a better rate.

And on things like the 125% loans. Those were marketed to potential borrowers. People didn't just walk in and say they wanted to borrow 125% of their homes value. They were sold those loans. By a loan officer making a big commission.

So yea, people took advantage of the system put in place. But they sure didn't do it without the help of loan officers and real estate agents.

ANd the loan officers knew we were making bad loans. We would laugh about it. We would get reports about first payment defaults. Management knew what was going to happen. But with the ability to sell the mortgage off to an unsuspecting buyer, what was the risk?

It wasn't like the people making the loan were going to service the loan. Or even take a loss if it went bad.

Deregulating the banking industry caused this problem. It would have never ever happened IF the investment houses had been made to stay out of the mortage business. Like it had always been.
The mortgage industry was working just fine without all the junk loans introduced by the investment houses.

I agree with most of that, and I'm a financial advisor. Holy crap, I'll bet you and I could swap horror stories for a freakin' year about what people in our professions have done.

And I most agree with the last paragraph. Between blanket deregulation and the end of Glass-Steagall, the politicians were virtually begging for people to bend laws. Add to that the way other politicians were pushing for loans to be "fair" to certain groups, and you have a perfect recipe for what happened. And both parties had a nice, big hand in it, including Clinton, who signed the act that killed Glass-Steagall.

So the mortgage mess had many cooks in the kitchen: Banks, mortgage officers, politicians, and consumers (as described above) who used their home equity as a piggy bank to buy shit they didn't need and who signed on the dotted line when they should have known better, instead of being overcome by their wants. It was a team effort, as I said.

Let's see if we've learned now. Any bets?

.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Good! A sports analogy. A team effort!

We agree. From the GM on down to the janitor.....the team lost as a team.

Now.....let's fire the janitorial staff....and the middle relievers.....and even the journeymen infielders and lefty pinch hitters. But we will give the All Star SS a bonus and extend the managers contract for 6 more years.

The blame is NOT TO BE EQUALLY SHARED..............there is blame all around.....but the banks get MOST of it. Yet the banks are the only ones who have yet to pay for their part in it.

You cannot take more from the buyers.........they have been punished for their "crime". They have accepted blame........with their wallets. All that is left is to shame them. Tell them over and over again what no-good, greedy fucks they were.

But why? Why do that?

 

[editec]

Mac and Deke got it exactly right.

I was a mortgage broker in CT back in the late 80s when LIARS LOANS first started.

Everybody KNEW they were nuts but since we all made commission on those, nobody in the business much complained.

The real estate bubble and the BURST of that bubble was inevitable, thanks to the derivative market that WILLAM CLINTON refused to regulate, and thanks ALSO to the FED and TREASURY under Bush who saved the BANKSTERS who made this disaster inevitable.

PLENTY of bi partisan blame to go around folks.


This bubble started long before popped.

 

[Old Rocks]

There is a factor here not mentioned. Many of these loans were made at monthly payment rates that were 1/2 of rent in the areas at the time. A young family, faced with the prospect of paying over half their income in rent, or paying nothing down, and moving into a nice house at 1/2 the cost, with an increase 2 to 5 years down the road, what do you think they were going to do. Especially when the loan officer was showing them the increase in housing values in the area for the last five years.

Problem is, there was much more to it than that. People were taking 125% home equity loans out to pay off the credit cards they had run up, then ran those same damn cards up again. They were buying homes with little or nothing down, they knew damn well there were balloon payments coming up, they did it anyway. The no-doc loans allowed them to buy homes they knew they would not be able to pay for. The low interest rates allowed them to pay less for a more humble home, but they decided to buy as much house as they could "afford" instead.

We can pretend these people are victims, or we can realize that no one forced them to sign on the dotted line and hold them accountable as adults for their decisions. They were greedy, the mortgage people were greedy, everybody was fuckin' greedy, and here we are. This was a team effort.

.

Yes, that is a fact. What is a fact also is that the banks and mortgage companies were aggressively selling those loans. I have three small peices of property in Portland, Oregon. I recieved constant offers of loans at ridiculous amounts on these properties. Not just mail, but calls on the phone. Never took any of them, had lived long enough to realize that the bubble was going to burst. Sometimes I wonder, though, if I was a fool not to have. Had I just taken the loans, got it all out in cash, stashed it somewhere, and walked away when the bubble burst, I would be far better off. And, ethically, done nothing at all differant than the people selling the loans.

 

[zeke]

Grahm of Texas and Bilbrey of ? made repeated attempts to repeal Glass Stegal. Matter of fact, rethugs had been working to repeal this act since inception. At the end, the repeal was narrowly defeated a few times on strict party line votes. Big sticking point for the Dems was that there were no CRA provisions in the new legislation.

Once Repugs agreed to the CRA provision, Clinton signed. Of course Clinton had Rubin, Treasury sec. (from Wallstreet) and others in his admin advocating for the passage of the bill.

So he signed it. Blame Clinton if it feels good. But Repugs were dedicated/obsessed about the repeal of this good legislation for a long long time.

Think how much better off we would be without the repeal of Glass Steagall.

 

[Mac1958]

Think how much better off we would be without the repeal of Glass Steagall.

Weird thing is, I've seen politicians, economists and even members of the financial industry say that the repeal was bad and we should go back to where we were, yet I never hear of anything actually happening.

I have to assume that there's a lot of shit going on behind the scenes preventing it. Banks should be banks; the conflicts of interest without Glass Steagall have caused great damage, and it's continuing.

.

 

[Againsheila]

No.

I enjoy having a discussion with you. I will continue to engage you......and maybe someday you will realize that my intentions where you are concerned are positive.

We disagree on this issue. I think homebuyers....in general....we're fucked by the banks. And the bank operators have yet to be punished. The home buyers have lost their homes and any investment that they made into them....however small. They were fucked.

Is there some culpability on their part? Sure.....they would have been well served to have a better understanding of the shithole they were buying into. But the problem is more of ignorance ( even willful ignorance ) than of greed.

Don't give up on me, Mac.

I never understood bailing out the banks. If we'd bailed out the homeowners, they would have paid the banks for their homes, the banks would have still gotten the money and everyone would have benefited. Instead, we bailed out the banks and the people responsible for the meltdown went on expensive trips and had expensive parties at the taxpayers expense, while those people in the homes lost everything. Gee, we're stupid.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Watching tonights fiasco reminded me of this thread.

When the markets open in a couple days we shall see. Had Obama been a leader we could have avoided whatever may come.

This time if the markets crash and we take another dive the blame will lie squarly in DC.

 

[Duped]

Don't you hate those greedy freeloaders!

 

[rightwinger]

Watching tonights fiasco reminded me of this thread.

When the markets open in a couple days we shall see. Had Obama been a leader we could have avoided whatever may come.

This time if the markets crash and we take another dive the blame will lie squarly in DC.

Obama made sure he was not the only person in the room making compromises this time

Made the Republicans piss their pants

 

[edthecynic]

Watching tonights fiasco reminded me of this thread.

When the markets open in a couple days we shall see. Had Obama been a leader we could have avoided whatever may come.

This time if the markets crash and we take another dive the blame will lie squarly in DC.

 

[jgarden]

The collapse of 2008 was caused by greed. Greed of people buying houses they couldn't afford. Greed of bankers letting them do it. Greed of our govt for pushing it. Something for nothing essentially.

Now here we are 4 years later repeating the same bullshit just in different areas. Free shit for everyone. Oh and lets even spread the wealth among a million new amnesty receipiants.

According to the libs we're not broke despite borrowing nearly half the money we spend. Hell, we can't even print the shit fast enough to pay off the interest.

We just keep on keeping on. Borrow, print and give away.

The Republican/Tea Party members in Congress have been working overtime for the last 4 years to ensure that there will be no economic recovery while there is a Democrat in the White House!