The Christian Tithe ripoff.

[hadit]

You had a bad experience, I get that. Maybe that explains your crusade and obsession, but let it go. Others do not share your experience and will not, no matter how hard you try to make them.

I disagree, this thread has enough interest to suit me. I will not give up this truth.

Then you should make sure you're telling the truth.

Hadit, and this is truth as well, what I am about to say. The truth you are conscious of, others have different truths they are conscious of. We just see things far differently, but I am sure there are a few things we can agree with; some things in Christianity I agree with. If one gets with a group of people that they totally agree with, that would be a wonderful thing. I have never met a group of believers that I totally agree with, so for the most part, I must walk alone. When I meet believers in God, I respect that at least . But I am a believer, I just read the bible and understand it as I see it. Can I be wrong about things, of course I can. In fact, I have looked back and seen things I have been wrong about biblically, for over 30 years. But at least I have seen the wrong and was led to correction.

So hey, we see what we see. Paul saw things differently than Peter did. Every Apostle in the bible had followers in their group who saw things differently. As did the disciples , that is not un normal or something; its just how it is.

Fair enough on its face, but when you say things like there are no good churches, you have moved out of the arena of simple disagreement and are simply and completely wrong. Peter and Paul disagreed on whether to put observance of the Law on Gentile Christians, but they both agreed Yeshua is Lord.

The bible does suggest that none are good or righteous; but fair enough, I should not group them all together, some are better than others. But I can say that I have never seen a " Good Church." Maybe some I have been exposed to in the 60's or 70's, but not recently. Its mostly the leaders fault In Jeremiah God himself said MANY Pastors have destroyed my vineyard, ( or his church). I could listen to the words of people, or believe what God has said. If you read the OT, some of the things God says about this whole world and HIS church, it will astonish you. Notice then Isaiah 40:17, " All nations before him are as nothing; and they are " Counted to him as Less than nothing and meaningless." Less than nothing, my goodness.

Actually, I grieve over the fraud that many pastors are committing, precisely because of what you are going through. I have seen good pastors, and some not so good, but the best are the ones that acknowledge they are human, fallible and flawed. The church I'm in now doesn't make a big deal about money. The leadership trusts God for the funds to operate and support our outreach and various ministries and He always provides.

 

[Spare_change]

Interesting.

I note two things .....

1) You have no practical understanding of tithing. The very idea that the money goes to God is beyond laughable, and clearly demonstrates a level of ignorance beyond normal human conception. Further, I wonder why you think it is within your purview to judge the actions of others. Maybe you should look a little closer to home.

2) I am continually amazed about how atheists feel the visceral need to prove their position. I wonder who they are trying to convince - Christians or themselves. It appears atheists don't exactly really believe the nonsense they spout - and are looking for validation. Christian, on the other hand, seem very content with who they are and what they believe. It's almost as if we recognize the more atheists there are, the more backyard space we'll have in Heaven.

The Christian tithe is a fraud. Some even believe they will be cursed if they do not give. Its fearful nonsense.

None of which changes the original position - it's none of your damn business what people choose to do.

Your suggesting that I remain silent;

no, I will not.

I suggest nothing .....

1) I maintain that my relationship with the church is none of your damn business, and I would appreciate you remembering that.

2) Feel free to spout all the nonsense you wish - you shall be judged by the level of intelligence you fail to display.

I started this thread and I am discussing the deception of the Christian tithe. I did not force you to come to the thread, but you are welcome. I will continue to discuss it. I could careless about your relationship with the church.

And I will be judged, and one thing I am absolutely sure of, is that you will have absolutely nothing to do with it. Peace on your journey.

Believe me, it was not the depth of your observation that drew me here.

It was the depth of your arrogance, which seem to be only exceeded by your ignorance.

 

[Mickiel]

The Christian tithe is a fraud. Some even believe they will be cursed if they do not give. Its fearful nonsense.

None of which changes the original position - it's none of your damn business what people choose to do.

Your suggesting that I remain silent;

no, I will not.

I suggest nothing .....

1) I maintain that my relationship with the church is none of your damn business, and I would appreciate you remembering that.

2) Feel free to spout all the nonsense you wish - you shall be judged by the level of intelligence you fail to display.

I started this thread and I am discussing the deception of the Christian tithe. I did not force you to come to the thread, but you are welcome. I will continue to discuss it. I could careless about your relationship with the church.

And I will be judged, and one thing I am absolutely sure of, is that you will have absolutely nothing to do with it. Peace on your journey.

Believe me, it was not the depth of your observation that drew me here.

It was the depth of your arrogance, which seem to be only exceeded by your ignorance.

Well all I can say is why are you reading the ignorance and arrogance of another? I certainly would not read anyone who I felt that way about. Why are you so interested in things you are not interested in?

 

[Spare_change]

None of which changes the original position - it's none of your damn business what people choose to do.

Your suggesting that I remain silent;

no, I will not.

I suggest nothing .....

1) I maintain that my relationship with the church is none of your damn business, and I would appreciate you remembering that.

2) Feel free to spout all the nonsense you wish - you shall be judged by the level of intelligence you fail to display.

I started this thread and I am discussing the deception of the Christian tithe. I did not force you to come to the thread, but you are welcome. I will continue to discuss it. I could careless about your relationship with the church.

And I will be judged, and one thing I am absolutely sure of, is that you will have absolutely nothing to do with it. Peace on your journey.

Believe me, it was not the depth of your observation that drew me here.

It was the depth of your arrogance, which seem to be only exceeded by your ignorance.

Well all I can say is why are you reading the ignorance and arrogance of another? I certainly would not read anyone who I felt that way about. Why are you so interested in things you are not interested in?

I am merely responding to the vicious, inaccurate, and ridiculous attacks on those of us who tithe.

Back off.

 

[Mickiel]

I disagree, this thread has enough interest to suit me. I will not give up this truth.

Then you should make sure you're telling the truth.

Hadit, and this is truth as well, what I am about to say. The truth you are conscious of, others have different truths they are conscious of. We just see things far differently, but I am sure there are a few things we can agree with; some things in Christianity I agree with. If one gets with a group of people that they totally agree with, that would be a wonderful thing. I have never met a group of believers that I totally agree with, so for the most part, I must walk alone. When I meet believers in God, I respect that at least . But I am a believer, I just read the bible and understand it as I see it. Can I be wrong about things, of course I can. In fact, I have looked back and seen things I have been wrong about biblically, for over 30 years. But at least I have seen the wrong and was led to correction.

So hey, we see what we see. Paul saw things differently than Peter did. Every Apostle in the bible had followers in their group who saw things differently. As did the disciples , that is not un normal or something; its just how it is.

Fair enough on its face, but when you say things like there are no good churches, you have moved out of the arena of simple disagreement and are simply and completely wrong. Peter and Paul disagreed on whether to put observance of the Law on Gentile Christians, but they both agreed Yeshua is Lord.

The bible does suggest that none are good or righteous; but fair enough, I should not group them all together, some are better than others. But I can say that I have never seen a " Good Church." Maybe some I have been exposed to in the 60's or 70's, but not recently. Its mostly the leaders fault In Jeremiah God himself said MANY Pastors have destroyed my vineyard, ( or his church). I could listen to the words of people, or believe what God has said. If you read the OT, some of the things God says about this whole world and HIS church, it will astonish you. Notice then Isaiah 40:17, " All nations before him are as nothing; and they are " Counted to him as Less than nothing and meaningless." Less than nothing, my goodness.

Actually, I grieve over the fraud that many pastors are committing, precisely because of what you are going through. I have seen good pastors, and some not so good, but the best are the ones that acknowledge they are human, fallible and flawed. The church I'm in now doesn't make a big deal about money. The leadership trusts God for the funds to operate and support our outreach and various ministries and He always provides.

Well I understand that churches need money to pay their bills , but I also understand that the New Testament church did not Tithe or give clergy salaries. They gave money to members who needed it , and to Apostolic workers who were establishing other churches. The tithe was abolished by Christ. Not giving , but he abolished giving under an obligation to give. He wanted freedom in giving , not giving because of a law or a threat to be cursed if you did not give.

 

[Mickiel]

Your suggesting that I remain silent;

no, I will not.

I suggest nothing .....

1) I maintain that my relationship with the church is none of your damn business, and I would appreciate you remembering that.

2) Feel free to spout all the nonsense you wish - you shall be judged by the level of intelligence you fail to display.

I started this thread and I am discussing the deception of the Christian tithe. I did not force you to come to the thread, but you are welcome. I will continue to discuss it. I could careless about your relationship with the church.

And I will be judged, and one thing I am absolutely sure of, is that you will have absolutely nothing to do with it. Peace on your journey.

Believe me, it was not the depth of your observation that drew me here.

It was the depth of your arrogance, which seem to be only exceeded by your ignorance.

Well all I can say is why are you reading the ignorance and arrogance of another? I certainly would not read anyone who I felt that way about. Why are you so interested in things you are not interested in?

I am merely responding to the vicious, inaccurate, and ridiculous attacks on those of us who tithe.

Back off.

I will not back off, your request is denied!

 

[hadit]

Then you should make sure you're telling the truth.

Hadit, and this is truth as well, what I am about to say. The truth you are conscious of, others have different truths they are conscious of. We just see things far differently, but I am sure there are a few things we can agree with; some things in Christianity I agree with. If one gets with a group of people that they totally agree with, that would be a wonderful thing. I have never met a group of believers that I totally agree with, so for the most part, I must walk alone. When I meet believers in God, I respect that at least . But I am a believer, I just read the bible and understand it as I see it. Can I be wrong about things, of course I can. In fact, I have looked back and seen things I have been wrong about biblically, for over 30 years. But at least I have seen the wrong and was led to correction.

So hey, we see what we see. Paul saw things differently than Peter did. Every Apostle in the bible had followers in their group who saw things differently. As did the disciples , that is not un normal or something; its just how it is.

Fair enough on its face, but when you say things like there are no good churches, you have moved out of the arena of simple disagreement and are simply and completely wrong. Peter and Paul disagreed on whether to put observance of the Law on Gentile Christians, but they both agreed Yeshua is Lord.

The bible does suggest that none are good or righteous; but fair enough, I should not group them all together, some are better than others. But I can say that I have never seen a " Good Church." Maybe some I have been exposed to in the 60's or 70's, but not recently. Its mostly the leaders fault In Jeremiah God himself said MANY Pastors have destroyed my vineyard, ( or his church). I could listen to the words of people, or believe what God has said. If you read the OT, some of the things God says about this whole world and HIS church, it will astonish you. Notice then Isaiah 40:17, " All nations before him are as nothing; and they are " Counted to him as Less than nothing and meaningless." Less than nothing, my goodness.

Actually, I grieve over the fraud that many pastors are committing, precisely because of what you are going through. I have seen good pastors, and some not so good, but the best are the ones that acknowledge they are human, fallible and flawed. The church I'm in now doesn't make a big deal about money. The leadership trusts God for the funds to operate and support our outreach and various ministries and He always provides.

Well I understand that churches need money to pay their bills , but I also understand that the New Testament church did not Tithe or give clergy salaries. They gave money to members who needed it , and to Apostolic workers who were establishing other churches. The tithe was abolished by Christ. Not giving , but he abolished giving under an obligation to give. He wanted freedom in giving , not giving because of a law or a threat to be cursed if you did not give.

Yes, Yeshua raised the bar. He moved from the realm of the Law, where actions were paramount, to relationship and the heart, where the mind and attitudes are paramount. It's a lot harder standard. There are many, however, who trust God with a tithe, and do it, not because they feel they have to, but because they really want to. In fact, they don't stop at a tithe, but give freely.

 

[hadit]

I suggest nothing .....

1) I maintain that my relationship with the church is none of your damn business, and I would appreciate you remembering that.

2) Feel free to spout all the nonsense you wish - you shall be judged by the level of intelligence you fail to display.

I started this thread and I am discussing the deception of the Christian tithe. I did not force you to come to the thread, but you are welcome. I will continue to discuss it. I could careless about your relationship with the church.

And I will be judged, and one thing I am absolutely sure of, is that you will have absolutely nothing to do with it. Peace on your journey.

Believe me, it was not the depth of your observation that drew me here.

It was the depth of your arrogance, which seem to be only exceeded by your ignorance.

Well all I can say is why are you reading the ignorance and arrogance of another? I certainly would not read anyone who I felt that way about. Why are you so interested in things you are not interested in?

I am merely responding to the vicious, inaccurate, and ridiculous attacks on those of us who tithe.

Back off.

I will not back off, your request is denied!

See, that is the problem. You will convince no one as long as you are attacking them for their beliefs. All you're doing is spitting into the wind. You get wet and the wind doesn't stop.

 

[Mickiel]

I started this thread and I am discussing the deception of the Christian tithe. I did not force you to come to the thread, but you are welcome. I will continue to discuss it. I could careless about your relationship with the church.

And I will be judged, and one thing I am absolutely sure of, is that you will have absolutely nothing to do with it. Peace on your journey.

Believe me, it was not the depth of your observation that drew me here.

It was the depth of your arrogance, which seem to be only exceeded by your ignorance.

Well all I can say is why are you reading the ignorance and arrogance of another? I certainly would not read anyone who I felt that way about. Why are you so interested in things you are not interested in?

I am merely responding to the vicious, inaccurate, and ridiculous attacks on those of us who tithe.

Back off.

I will not back off, your request is denied!

See, that is the problem. You will convince no one as long as you are attacking them for their beliefs. All you're doing is spitting into the wind. You get wet and the wind doesn't stop.

Well yes, I understand that, but I hold no interest in convincing anyone of anything, I speak only as a witness to what I understand; holding the right to express my beliefs as you have the right. Tithing has been abolished; period! And there exist no more bondage to it ; no one can be pressured to tithe any more. Now if THEY still want to, I don't see any problem with that, as long as they understand that they are not biblically obligated to it, or doing God some king of favor that they get blessed or rewarded for. And that they hold no right to mislead others about the true nature of tithing in the Old covenant verse the New Covenant. I am free of tithing or any other Old Testament law; ALL those laws were hanged on a tree with Christ.

 

[Mickiel]

And that is the problem with this obsession to tithe, people still think its a system God set up to entice others to give , but when he set it up, he was " Forcing them to give", because he new how greedy and stubborn Israel truly was. He used a curse to threaten them to give, and blessings to entice them to give. You know, if you give then I will give things to you. Well that was changed, along with so very much other changes in the New Covenant; that is WHY its called a NEW Covenant, things were done in a new way, a way designed to give true freedom in all things, especially giving. Tithing becomes a problem when its represented as God's command, binding upon every believer!

God does not want believers thrown into poverty or burdened with bills that tithing makes it hard for them to pay. NO! Pay your bills first! You are NOT obligated to give beyond your means. Don't let it impact your needs. God is not stupid, he does not want you neglecting things just to tithe. Its no longer a way he uses to bless you, God does not need money given to a church as a way to bless you and support you. That is nonsense; its old covenant. Its a type of bondage that Jesus death freed us from.

Tithing is not a litmus test for discipleship. Tithing is not a sign of devotion to God. Tithing is not some kind of stock investment in God. You know, the thinking is " Pay the Tithe, and God will give you more money in return, Refuse to tithe and he will punish you. Such a system really rips at the heart of true giving. And it is sad that so many believers are addicted to it. They are missing the true freedom in Christ and the true nature of giving. Notice then 2Corinth. 9:7, " Every man according to how he has purpose in his heart , so let him give , NOT grudgingly, or out of " Necessity, ( or obligation), " For God loves a Cheerful giver." Necessity here means obligation, like obeying a command. This is the true Godly pathology in Giving.

 

[hadit]

Believe me, it was not the depth of your observation that drew me here.

It was the depth of your arrogance, which seem to be only exceeded by your ignorance.

Well all I can say is why are you reading the ignorance and arrogance of another? I certainly would not read anyone who I felt that way about. Why are you so interested in things you are not interested in?

I am merely responding to the vicious, inaccurate, and ridiculous attacks on those of us who tithe.

Back off.

I will not back off, your request is denied!

See, that is the problem. You will convince no one as long as you are attacking them for their beliefs. All you're doing is spitting into the wind. You get wet and the wind doesn't stop.

Well yes, I understand that, but I hold no interest in convincing anyone of anything, I speak only as a witness to what I understand; holding the right to express my beliefs as you have the right. Tithing has been abolished; period! And there exist no more bondage to it ; no one can be pressured to tithe any more. Now if THEY still want to, I don't see any problem with that, as long as they understand that they are not biblically obligated to it, or doing God some king of favor that they get blessed or rewarded for. And that they hold no right to mislead others about the true nature of tithing in the Old covenant verse the New Covenant. I am free of tithing or any other Old Testament law; ALL those laws were hanged on a tree with Christ.

Don't forget, however, the Biblical injunction against doing something your conscience tells you is sin. Even if you are free from bondage, others may not be, and as Paul admonishes, we should not cause others to stumble through our freedom.

 

[Mickiel]

Well all I can say is why are you reading the ignorance and arrogance of another? I certainly would not read anyone who I felt that way about. Why are you so interested in things you are not interested in?

I am merely responding to the vicious, inaccurate, and ridiculous attacks on those of us who tithe.

Back off.

I will not back off, your request is denied!

See, that is the problem. You will convince no one as long as you are attacking them for their beliefs. All you're doing is spitting into the wind. You get wet and the wind doesn't stop.

Well yes, I understand that, but I hold no interest in convincing anyone of anything, I speak only as a witness to what I understand; holding the right to express my beliefs as you have the right. Tithing has been abolished; period! And there exist no more bondage to it ; no one can be pressured to tithe any more. Now if THEY still want to, I don't see any problem with that, as long as they understand that they are not biblically obligated to it, or doing God some king of favor that they get blessed or rewarded for. And that they hold no right to mislead others about the true nature of tithing in the Old covenant verse the New Covenant. I am free of tithing or any other Old Testament law; ALL those laws were hanged on a tree with Christ.

Don't forget, however, the Biblical injunction against doing something your conscience tells you is sin. Even if you are free from bondage, others may not be, and as Paul admonishes, we should not cause others to stumble through our freedom.

I am not causing anyone to stumble, I don't chase people and go on other threads, I stay to myself. Why the threads sometimes attract a lot of people, I just don't know, but I never force my views on anyone, not you either. Show me anywhere in these archives that I have forced anything on anyone? Show me.

I would like to see what you accuse me of.

 

[hadit]

I am merely responding to the vicious, inaccurate, and ridiculous attacks on those of us who tithe.

Back off.

I will not back off, your request is denied!

See, that is the problem. You will convince no one as long as you are attacking them for their beliefs. All you're doing is spitting into the wind. You get wet and the wind doesn't stop.

Well yes, I understand that, but I hold no interest in convincing anyone of anything, I speak only as a witness to what I understand; holding the right to express my beliefs as you have the right. Tithing has been abolished; period! And there exist no more bondage to it ; no one can be pressured to tithe any more. Now if THEY still want to, I don't see any problem with that, as long as they understand that they are not biblically obligated to it, or doing God some king of favor that they get blessed or rewarded for. And that they hold no right to mislead others about the true nature of tithing in the Old covenant verse the New Covenant. I am free of tithing or any other Old Testament law; ALL those laws were hanged on a tree with Christ.

Don't forget, however, the Biblical injunction against doing something your conscience tells you is sin. Even if you are free from bondage, others may not be, and as Paul admonishes, we should not cause others to stumble through our freedom.

I am not causing anyone to stumble, I don't chase people and go on other threads, I stay to myself. Why the threads sometimes attract a lot of people, I just don't know, but I never force my views on anyone, not you either. Show me anywhere in these archives that I have forced anything on anyone? Show me.

I would like to see what you accuse me of.

Where did I say force? I didn't, and you don't have to force to entice another to stumble. You may not even intend to do so.

 

[Mickiel]

I will not back off, your request is denied!

See, that is the problem. You will convince no one as long as you are attacking them for their beliefs. All you're doing is spitting into the wind. You get wet and the wind doesn't stop.

Well yes, I understand that, but I hold no interest in convincing anyone of anything, I speak only as a witness to what I understand; holding the right to express my beliefs as you have the right. Tithing has been abolished; period! And there exist no more bondage to it ; no one can be pressured to tithe any more. Now if THEY still want to, I don't see any problem with that, as long as they understand that they are not biblically obligated to it, or doing God some king of favor that they get blessed or rewarded for. And that they hold no right to mislead others about the true nature of tithing in the Old covenant verse the New Covenant. I am free of tithing or any other Old Testament law; ALL those laws were hanged on a tree with Christ.

Don't forget, however, the Biblical injunction against doing something your conscience tells you is sin. Even if you are free from bondage, others may not be, and as Paul admonishes, we should not cause others to stumble through our freedom.

I am not causing anyone to stumble, I don't chase people and go on other threads, I stay to myself. Why the threads sometimes attract a lot of people, I just don't know, but I never force my views on anyone, not you either. Show me anywhere in these archives that I have forced anything on anyone? Show me.

I would like to see what you accuse me of.

Where did I say force? I didn't, and you don't have to force to entice another to stumble. You may not even intend to do so.

I am using the scriptures as my evidence , not lame words to entice, and I have offered articles and essays for people to study for themselves.

Here's another one;

The Tithe is Illegal

I admit few believers are realizing this truth, and its a hard truth to follow, because one usually has addictions to old information that is in error, that type of learning is hard to overcome. Because we learned it from churches and pastors who were in error, people and churches that some think its impossible for a pastor or a church to be in error; A grave mistake in judgment. Who would think that the tithe learning is tainted? Well not only does this topic show error in Christian learning, there is a whole long list of error in the Christian church. Which is why I left it years ago; I could no longer pacify walking in error that members seemed totally blind to. From the Trinity doctrine, to keeping these pagan originated holidays, to false teachings about the so called " Fall of man", satan being this fictional person called " Lucifer", the horrible doctrine of eternal hell punishing- a rape of the truth, and many , many others.

It was VERY hard for me to discover these things, but the bible helped me see them. One of the hardest things to do is to unlearn deceptive church education which you were taught for years.

So I understand why you struggle with my views; I do understand.

Peace.

 

[Mickiel]

The Tithe is a rip off, it was never sanctioned by God to be a permanent fixture.

 

[Mickiel]

Give as is in your heart, no Christian doctrine can force you to give a percentage and God has not obligated you to give a dime if you don't want to.

 

[mona2017]

Love this thread. Here is my 2 cents! My step dad and mother are rolling in money. I am struggling financially terribly! He gives the church $700 a month and me nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does this dude honestly think he is buying his way into heaven?! Makes me want to vomit. He is such a hypocrite.....not a very nice man either. Sickening.

 

[Mickiel]

Love this thread. Here is my 2 cents! My step dad and mother are rolling in money. I am struggling financially terribly! He gives the church $700 a month and me nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does this dude honestly think he is buying his way into heaven?! Makes me want to vomit. He is such a hypocrite.....not a very nice man either. Sickening.

This is the kind of thing I am talking about, he gives the church 700.00 a month and you nothing. That's just wrong, but in his eyes its the " Godly thing to do." He can find all kinds of reasons not to help you, and the church gives him all kinds of reasons to give his money. You have the tithe, usually ten percent of their income. Then you have all kinds of " Love offerings:" Then offerings to help others, and most of their member neglect helping their own. Then the church " Building fund", then " Gifts to the ministry." The list goes on and on, its a professional money machine. And they use God as the drawing tool.

 

[Mickiel]

Its as if Christianity does not want to know the truth about the tithe; they are afraid of change. They have far too much pride, thinking they cannot be wrong about things. Pride comes before a fall. Their young people are being misled, whole families are being taught this horrible wrong. Some of their pastors even know this truth, but would rather have the money than to teach the truth.

 

[hadit]

Its as if Christianity does not want to know the truth about the tithe; they are afraid of change. They have far too much pride, thinking they cannot be wrong about things. Pride comes before a fall. Their young people are being misled, whole families are being taught this horrible wrong. Some of their pastors even know this truth, but would rather have the money than to teach the truth.

Most churches receive far less than 10% of the congregants income. You're still complaining about people making voluntary choices with their own resources. IOW, it's their business, not yours.