The Census and the Triumph of Conservatism.

[Revere]

If you don't believe in the primacy of the Constitution, you don't believe in the American system.

define 'the American system'


Do you believe in the primacy of the Articles of Confederation?


Thomas Jefferson- one of those Founders you people worship- didn't.

"We surely cannot deny to any nation that right whereon our own government is founded, that every one may govern itself according to whatever form it pleases and change these forms at its own will... The will of the nation is the only thing essential to be regarded."
--Thomas Jefferson to Gouverneur Morris, 1792. ME 9:36
​

The Articles of Confederation were a sidebar. They are not the same as the founding document.

 

[The T]

Go on. Explain why we should reinstate slavery just because 'the Founders' had slaves.

The framers weren't real big on slavery. The short story is the southern delegates wanted slavery, the northern delegates didn't. The north caved to the south because they felt at the time it was more important to pose a united front against the British and they could always come back and revisit slavery later, which we did, but probably not the way they would have wanted.

Exactly. Thomas Jefferson found himself in a quandry in writing about Liberty when there were fellow humans in Bondage by a few of the Founders themselves...including himself.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Gawd, you're an idiot.


If you can't tell the difference between the people who wrote The Constitution and Hitler, you really need help.

Get some.

In spite of the differences - and they're easy to list - the lives listed above and most of history's names from Genghis Khan to Mahatma Gandhi had LOTS in common at the start of their careers - if nothing else they were leaders.

Makes one want to pause before following.

I don't give a damn who said or believed what. An idea isn't valid or invalid based on who might have voiced it. To pretend otherwise is to elevate Washington and Smith to demigods and treat the Constitution as the bible- it is religion, pure and simple; it is blind obedience to authority and it is in direct contrast to everything I believe in.

Just because Hitler might have said ice cream is yummy doesn't make ice cream bad any more than Jesus giving a nod to slavery makes slavery okay.

Yes indeed Grasshopper, but I have a more esoteric and holistic way of saying it.

 

[JBeukema]

So none of 'the Framers' had slaves now?

 

[The T]

If you don't believe in the primacy of the Constitution, you don't believe in the American system.

define 'the American system'


Do you believe in the primacy of the Articles of Confederation?


Thomas Jefferson- one of those Founders you people worship- didn't.

"We surely cannot deny to any nation that right whereon our own government is founded, that every one may govern itself according to whatever form it pleases and change these forms at its own will... The will of the nation is the only thing essential to be regarded."
--Thomas Jefferson to Gouverneur Morris, 1792. ME 9:36​

The Articles of Confederation were a sidebar. They are not the same as the founding document.

In Fact you may call it an interim Document. We don't LIVE under it so you are correct...the Articles Of Confederation are moot.

 

[JBeukema]

If you don't believe in the primacy of the Constitution, you don't believe in the American system.

define 'the American system'


Do you believe in the primacy of the Articles of Confederation?


Thomas Jefferson- one of those Founders you people worship- didn't.

"We surely cannot deny to any nation that right whereon our own government is founded, that every one may govern itself according to whatever form it pleases and change these forms at its own will... The will of the nation is the only thing essential to be regarded."
--Thomas Jefferson to Gouverneur Morris, 1792. ME 9:36
​

The Articles of Confederation were a sidebar. They are not the same as the founding document.

What's the founding document? The Mayflower compact?

 

[uscitizen]

So I repeat: why should we care what 'the Founders' envisioned any more than what FDR, King George, Taft, Hitler, Lincoln, or anyone else envisioned?

Is it so much to ask you to defend the vision itself on its merits?

Yep, I ivew a lot of this as failing to accept personal resonsibility for what our government has become and it's continued decline.

How many were re-elected in congress?

How many attend city council meetings and such?

But we all piss and moan about the results of OUR actions and inactions.

WE make America what it is.
And what it will be.

 

[uscitizen]

define 'the American system'


Do you believe in the primacy of the Articles of Confederation?


Thomas Jefferson- one of those Founders you people worship- didn't.

"We surely cannot deny to any nation that right whereon our own government is founded, that every one may govern itself according to whatever form it pleases and change these forms at its own will... The will of the nation is the only thing essential to be regarded."
--Thomas Jefferson to Gouverneur Morris, 1792. ME 9:36
​

The Articles of Confederation were a sidebar. They are not the same as the founding document.

What's the founding document? The Mayflower compact?

Yeah a makup mirror from a moving company

 

[JBeukema]

Go on. Explain why we should reinstate slavery just because 'the Founders' had slaves.

The framers weren't real big on slavery. The short story is the southern delegates wanted slavery, the northern delegates didn't. The north caved to the south because they felt at the time it was more important to pose a united front against the British and they could always come back and revisit slavery later, which we did, but probably not the way they would have wanted.

Exactly. Thomas Jefferson found himself in a quandry in writing about Liberty when there were fellow humans in Bondage by a few of the Founders themselves...including himself.

Wasn't he the one who changed 'subjects' to 'citizens', paving the way for the denial of civil rights to blacks by declaring them to be non-citizens?

 

[JBeukema]

So I repeat: why should we care what 'the Founders' envisioned any more than what FDR, King George, Taft, Hitler, Lincoln, or anyone else envisioned?

Is it so much to ask you to defend the vision itself on its merits?

Yep, I ivew a lot of this as failing to accept personal resonsibility for what our government has become and it's continued decline.

How many were re-elected in congress?

How many attend city council meetings and such?

But we all piss and moan about the results of OUR actions and inactions.

WE make America what it is.
And what it will be.

 

[Revere]

define 'the American system'


Do you believe in the primacy of the Articles of Confederation?


Thomas Jefferson- one of those Founders you people worship- didn't.

"We surely cannot deny to any nation that right whereon our own government is founded, that every one may govern itself according to whatever form it pleases and change these forms at its own will... The will of the nation is the only thing essential to be regarded."
--Thomas Jefferson to Gouverneur Morris, 1792. ME 9:36
​

The Articles of Confederation were a sidebar. They are not the same as the founding document.

What's the founding document? The Mayflower compact?

The Constitution. The thing that separates the American system from all others. The single distinguising factor from all the other societies that failed.

 

[midcan5]

Conservatives are an odd bunch. First the census is an invasion of privacy and an enormous government conspiracy. Some even said don't send it in. Then it becomes proof that people moving to other parts of the country is proof of some magical correlation. Remember folks, Obama won some unexpected states. Counting your chickens before they hatch can be hazardous. Texas grew because of Hispanics, a few of the blue states dropped because of aging population and weather. Remember the boomers.

American remains a liberal progressive nation, we have passed healthcare, repealed DADT, improved food safety, we are gradually moving out of Iraq, extended child healthcare, created thousands of jobs, improved consumer regulation, two great SCOTUS choices, and got America back on her feet even if a little unsteady. No republican administration from Coolidge/Hoover to Reagan and the Bushs ever accomplished feats to match these - NEVER - and this is in just two years. 90+ Accomplishments of the Obama Administration so far: Hope and Change: 90+ Accomplishments of the Obama Administration so far

Interesting article on redistribution here: For the GOP, Redistricting Carries Risks - Jim O'Sullivan - Politics - The Atlantic

 

[Revere]

Progressivism is keeping America in poverty.

The last two years more than ever.

Hardly a success story.

 

[Revere]

The "aging population" moves to states which were not taxing their retirements away from them.

 

[JBeukema]

The Articles of Confederation were a sidebar. They are not the same as the founding document.

What's the founding document? The Mayflower compact?

The Constitution. The thing that separates the American system from all others. The single distinguising factor from all the other societies that failed.

Define success and failure. America tore itself apart in less than 100 years. The nation we have today barely resembles the nation that existed when Hamilton was alive in anything but name and half-assed reference to the Constitution in the course of political discourse and rhetoric.

America failed to protect its people from corporation until the Wobblies and others fought for reform.

It fails to uphold any principles that I can determine with any regularity and there's an argument to be made that the People no longer have any say in so much as the election of their rulers.

Then there's the economic collapse we're headed toward.

I don't give a damn whether this or any other nation-state as such 'succeeds' or 'fails' if success is defined as stagnation and failure to adapt to changing times or as the simple preservation of a name or the deign of a piece of cloth or approximate borders. I care about society's success or failure when it comes to doing what is right and always striving to better the world. If we could solve all this nations economic and social ills by splitting it up three ways, giving the new nations wholly new names, and replacing the Constitution with something demonstrably better, then why should anyone object out of some idiotic loyalty to a name, a scrap of cloth, or some vague concept of the nation-state as it is?

I claim no loyalty to this or any other nation-state. I am loyal to my principles and values and I support this or any other nation/civilization/society/what-have-you insomuch- and only insomuch- as it upholds thoser principles and values and acts accordingly. That's what it means t have principles, you see, as opposed to blind patriotism.

 

[Revere]

I'm loyal to the country, and the principles on which it was founded.

Your situational ethics are worthless.

 

[JBeukema]

Progressivism is keeping America in poverty.

The last two years more than ever.

Hardly a success story.

Economic and fiscal stupidity is destroying America. This includes both gross federal waste and capitalist abuse of corporate power to circumvent regulation.

You know, the corporations that say they won't hire because there's no demand because noone has money cause they fired everyone in order to better exploit the proletariat abroad.

 

[JBeukema]

I'm loyal to the country

The same thing was said by the Germans who served in Hitler's army.

You cannot be loyal to both a nation-state and to any principles. When the two conflict, one must take precedence.

 

[JBeukema]

I'm loyal to the country, and the principles on which it was founded.

Your situational ethics are worthless.

My ethics are far from situational. I am the one putting principle first while you and the other jingoists put Der Staat first.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The Federal government prolonged slavery by denying free states the right to recognize fugitive slaves as free men.

It was the Federal government that denied the states the right to HAVE slaves, moron.