The Census and the Triumph of Conservatism.

Why should we care what they envisioned any more than what FDR, King George, Taft, Hitler, Lincoln, or anyone else envisioned?


Gawd, you're an idiot.


If you can't tell the difference between the people who wrote The Constitution and Hitler, you really need help.

Get some.

In spite of the differences - and they're easy to list - the lives listed above and most of history's names from Genghis Khan to Mahatma Gandhi had LOTS in common at the start of their careers - if nothing else they were leaders.

Makes one want to pause before following.
I don't give a damn who said or believed what. An idea isn't valid or invalid based on who might have voiced it. To pretend otherwise is to elevate Washington and Smith to demigods and treat the Constitution as the bible- it is religion, pure and simple; it is blind obedience to authority and it is in direct contrast to everything I believe in.

Just because Hitler might have said ice cream is yummy doesn't make ice cream bad any more than Jesus giving a nod to slavery makes slavery okay.
 
I can't give you a reason you would understand. One can't explain Blue to a blind person.


Go on. Explain why we should reinstate slavery just because 'the Founders' had slaves.

The founders created the amendment process to right wrongs, as has been done many times.
Then why appeal to anything they believed? Clearly they realized that just because they thought so doesn't make it right.
 
Go on. Explain why we should reinstate slavery just because 'the Founders' had slaves.

The founders created the amendment process to right wrongs, as has been done many times.
Then why appeal to anything they believed? Clearly they realized that just because they thought so doesn't make it right.

If the founders were alive today they'd be laughing their asses off at the backward contingent of rightwing Americans who treat them as gods.
 
Why do so many rightwingers champion Federalism when in fact most of them are, by definition,

closer to being anti-Federalists than Federalists?

Is it just ignorance?

...hmmm...probably.
 
Gawd, you're an idiot.


If you can't tell the difference between the people who wrote The Constitution and Hitler, you really need help.

Get some.


So.. you can't give any reason we should care what 'The Founders' envisioned?

Nothing that your liberal mind could wrap around. BTW, Revere had a good answer for you.

LMAO
Revere had a good answer?
Well I guess there is a first time for everything.
 
You can't call yourself an American if you don't believe the country was founded to impose limits on government.
:eusa_eh:

I'm an American by definition; I am a citizen of the United States of America

This country, like all others, was founded to serve the purposes of those leaders who founded and formed it. They had their ideals and they had their interests. Their actions reflect the interplay between idealism (eg: the war for independence), pragmatism (eg: the Great Compromise), and simple self-interest (they never freed their won slaves- or their own children).

None of them were gods. None were angels. None were prophets of divine inspiration. So stop treating them like such and appealing to their words as the words of the Great Architect himself. Just because certain man might have believed something or held a given vision does not make it a good one- or a feasible one.

If you like an idea or system, defend it on its merits. I don't give a damn if Lucifer himself designed the bicycle, it remains a great mode of transportation. If Hitler had recommended a bicameral congress, it wouldn't suddenly become a bad idea. Just because Jefferson, Hamilton, Ghandi, or any other particular person forwarded an idea doesn't give it any weight or merit.
 
The Federal government prolonged slavery by denying free states the right to recognize fugitive slaves as free men.

You refer to the Fugitive Slave Act?

I'm on record defending the right, authority, and just cause of states' interposition in that case.
 
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So I repeat: why should we care what 'the Founders' envisioned any more than what FDR, King George, Taft, Hitler, Lincoln, or anyone else envisioned?

Is it so much to ask you to defend the vision itself on its merits?
 
If you don't believe in the primacy of the Constitution, you don't believe in the American system.

define 'the American system'


Do you believe in the primacy of the Articles of Confederation?


Thomas Jefferson- one of those Founders you people worship- didn't.

"We surely cannot deny to any nation that right whereon our own government is founded, that every one may govern itself according to whatever form it pleases and change these forms at its own will... The will of the nation is the only thing essential to be regarded."
--Thomas Jefferson to Gouverneur Morris, 1792. ME 9:36
 
Go on. Explain why we should reinstate slavery just because 'the Founders' had slaves.

The framers weren't real big on slavery. The short story is the southern delegates wanted slavery, the northern delegates didn't. The north caved to the south because they felt at the time it was more important to pose a united front against the British and they could always come back and revisit slavery later, which we did, but probably not the way they would have wanted.
 

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