“The Case for $320,000 Kindergarten Teachers,”

[bodecea]

This country refuses to honor and pay teachers the way they deserve to be.

You get what you pay for

You know why don't you? It comes from the days when most teachers were women...just like nurses are traditionally underpaid for what they do.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Interesting, but I would want to look at the data before actually commenting. One question I would have, what exactly is the more they learned in kindergarten?

 

[Annie]

This country refuses to honor and pay teachers the way they deserve to be.

You get what you pay for

You know why don't you? It comes from the days when most teachers were women...just like nurses are traditionally underpaid for what they do.

Until the mid late 19th C, most teachers were male. With the introduction of kindergartens and literature on benefits of nurturing/education, women began to teach more in lower grades. High schools have traditionally and still are more diverse in hiring men and women.

 

[Annie]

Damn, I hate when history shuts down a thread.

 

[chanel]

Interesting, but I would want to look at the data before actually commenting. One question I would have, what exactly is the more they learned in kindergarten?

Here's the whole report:

http://obs.rc.fas.harvard.edu/chetty/STAR_slides.pdf

It seems they looked at "teacher quality" based on a variety of factors. I'm not sure if that included student reviews, although I imagine it had to. Common sense would tell you that a positive first year in school would promote a love of learning for subsequent years. And of course the reverse may be true as well.

 

[random3434]

Let me ask y'all this.

If the gov. shuts down Head Start, what do you think the other options for these children would be?

 

[Annie]

Let me ask y'all this.

If the gov. shuts down Head Start, what do you think the other options for these children would be?

It's not that preschool isn't a good idea, I think it has a lot to offer children. The problem is mostly parenting. It seems to me that regardless of how good the program is, if the child isn't stimulated at home, self-discipline isn't encouraged, learning isn't recognized, there's going to be a greatly reduced impact of the preschool experience.

Thus sending children from an enriched background to the same preschool as a child from a home where television and video games are the primary caretakers, will gain much more academically and socially. They come prepared for preschool at 3. As they come prepared for kindergarten at 5, etc. Even in 'wealthy' areas you will find the disparity of experiences because some homes are just more stimulating and organized towards the skills of academics.

I've often thought that the best thing preschools and elementary schools could do is have several open classroom evenings where teachers could lay out what skills, materials, sleep needs, etc. for parents. Discipline suggestions for age appropriate could be made. Perhaps the small groups could meet for a presentation from some child rearing expert on topics of concern to all parents.

 

[random3434]

Let me ask y'all this.

If the gov. shuts down Head Start, what do you think the other options for these children would be?

It's not that preschool isn't a good idea, I think it has a lot to offer children. The problem is mostly parenting. It seems to me that regardless of how good the program is, if the child isn't stimulated at home, self-discipline isn't encouraged, learning isn't recognized, there's going to be a greatly reduced impact of the preschool experience.

Thus sending children from an enriched background to the same preschool as a child from a home where television and video games are the primary caretakers, will gain much more academically and socially. They come prepared for preschool at 3. As they come prepared for kindergarten at 5, etc. Even in 'wealthy' areas you will find the disparity of experiences because some homes are just more stimulating and organized towards the skills of academics.

I've often thought that the best thing preschools and elementary schools could do is have several open classroom evenings where teachers could lay out what skills, materials, sleep needs, etc. for parents. Discipline suggestions for age appropriate could be made. Perhaps the small groups could meet for a presentation from some child rearing expert on topics of concern to all parents.

That's what we do at our school, at least try. Have after school parent/teacher activities, sometimes in the evenings. Other times they invite the parents to come in at lunch, and eat with the teachers and their kids and then have little 'lessons' on ways to help your child read at home, etc.

The class I'm taking right now has a program where the teacher has the parents come in and she does a one on one with her (usually the mom but dad can do it too) and the child, and it's how to 'teach' the parent to help the child with reading comprehension, writing, or even what you can do to help them with homework.

Poverty's greatest enemy is education! The better educated we get these kids, the better chance they have of breaking the cycle!

Sorry if I rambled, my brain is fried from this class lol.

 

[Annie]

Let me ask y'all this.

If the gov. shuts down Head Start, what do you think the other options for these children would be?

It's not that preschool isn't a good idea, I think it has a lot to offer children. The problem is mostly parenting. It seems to me that regardless of how good the program is, if the child isn't stimulated at home, self-discipline isn't encouraged, learning isn't recognized, there's going to be a greatly reduced impact of the preschool experience.

Thus sending children from an enriched background to the same preschool as a child from a home where television and video games are the primary caretakers, will gain much more academically and socially. They come prepared for preschool at 3. As they come prepared for kindergarten at 5, etc. Even in 'wealthy' areas you will find the disparity of experiences because some homes are just more stimulating and organized towards the skills of academics.

I've often thought that the best thing preschools and elementary schools could do is have several open classroom evenings where teachers could lay out what skills, materials, sleep needs, etc. for parents. Discipline suggestions for age appropriate could be made. Perhaps the small groups could meet for a presentation from some child rearing expert on topics of concern to all parents.

That's what we do at our school, at least try. Have after school parent/teacher activities, sometimes in the evenings. Other times they invite the parents to come in at lunch, and eat with the teachers and their kids and then have little 'lessons' on ways to help your child read at home, etc.

The class I'm taking right now has a program where the teacher has the parents come in and she does a one on one with her (usually the mom but dad can do it too) and the child, and it's how to 'teach' the parent to help the child with reading comprehension, writing, or even what you can do to help them with homework.

Poverty's greatest enemy is education! The better educated we get these kids, the better chance they have of breaking the cycle!

Sorry if I rambled, my brain is fried from this class lol.

I hear you about fried brain! I'm going to get to bed, very soon.

It shocks me how many parents do not read to their children from the get go. I just don't get that. I was not a teacher when my kids were small, just seemed normal thing to do. Then again, my parents read to us from the start too. And they read out loud from the newspaper nearly every day, especially Mike Royko. It's not unusual for any of my now 20 year old kids to come for a visit and have some article they printed off to share with me. Often they'll read it out loud. Even in high school, especially when they were studying Shakespeare or Dickens or (god forbid), Beowulf, we took turns reading those aloud.

Another thing I've come to realize is that many parents that do read to their kids, don't ask the questions that help with thinking, inferences, and hypothesizing. These are all precursors to reading for meaning and higher order thinking. Besides, they make the experience more fun! Kids love to guess what the ending will be, they quickly learn the building tension in stories and the climax. Using the right words will also help in school.

Eating dinner with your kids and regularly conversing about each other's day and interesting 'news' is also a great teaching moment. It's not the time for disciplining or digging into something that is brought up that sets off alarm bells. If the child should say something about failing a quiz or bullying someone, that can wait until after dinner.

Taking the kids to the grocery store was probably towards the top of regular educational experiences. They practiced colors while still sitting in the basket. They practiced counting items in the cart. Once old enough they helped pick out vegetables and describe how they could be prepared. They could help figure out the cost per oz and read the labels. We talked about how stores purposefully put sugar cereals where kids could see them, while hiding the ones that were good for them at the top. Same with candy at check out counter, it was a trick! LOL! We bought candy in the candy aisle.

Getting to museums, zoos, taking walks, making observations about the weather, seasons, birds, etc. All are things that one can do for little or no money. We always had memberships at 3 museums and 2 zoos in our area. It saved money and the museums twice were low cost birthday locations, once for an overnight with the dinosaurs! (I don't know if they still have the birthday party options, I should check that out for when I have grandkids.)

Going to the library, parks, and making maps of things we'd see. Everyday things that kids find fun and special. Having them retell their day at bedtime was also a great way to find out what was going on with them and helped to settle them down.

Speaking of 'settling down.' Kids need routine. They thrive with it and by kindergarten, even preschool, are expected to be able to recognize it and adapt. That takes practice, which begins at home. Now having taught for nearly 15 years, I am boggled when people say that schools do not encourage independent thinking. Many are confusing thinking with the kids being allowed to do what they want. There's a difference. It's fine to have a creative way of writing a story or having a unique way of looking at a historical event or person. It's another to change the lesson because the student doesn't like the one assigned. That's where self-discipline comes in.

Most toddlers and young children prefer playdough, crayons, fingerpaints, and taking walks to watching tv or sitting at a computer even with educational software. Too many parents today seem to have their kids signed up for 'activities', but at home it's a bore.

 

[cad]

don't teachers get over 180 days off a year?
dont' most teachers work 8am-2:30PM?
don't most teachers become tenured after a few years, at which point they'd basically have to murder their studetns to be fired?
by the time they've worked for 10 years, many teachers are making over 40k a year. add a masters and its probablly closer to 50k.

how many jobs can offer a mon-friday 8-3 schedule with all holidays and summers off, incredible job security plus be extremely rewarding?

i dont' think it's such a terrible thing that teachers don't make great money, especially if you keep high hiring standards. what that means is the person that is going to teach your child is doing it because they have a real passion for it. they're not just doing it for the money.

 

[Annie]

don't teachers get over 180 days off a year?
dont' most teachers work 8am-2:30PM?
don't most teachers become tenured after a few years, at which point they'd basically have to murder their studetns to be fired?
by the time they've worked for 10 years, many teachers are making over 40k a year. add a masters and its probablly closer to 50k.

how many jobs can offer a mon-friday 8-3 schedule with all holidays and summers off, incredible job security plus be extremely rewarding?

i dont' think it's such a terrible thing that teachers don't make great money, especially if you keep high hiring standards. what that means is the person that is going to teach your child is doing it because they have a real passion for it. they're not just doing it for the money.

You might take a look at posts #15 and 16 before saying teachers don't make great money.

 

[uscitizen]

I never had kindergarten nor headstart.
They did not exist back then.
I did pretty well though. My parents actually took care of me and taught me to read write and have basic math skills before I started school at age 6.

Now we expect others to raise our children for us.

 

[Annie]

I never had kindergarten nor headstart.
They did not exist back then.
I did pretty well though. My parents actually took care of me and taught me to read write and have basic math skills before I started school at age 6.

Now we expect others to raise our children for us.

That would reiterate my point on success or failure to a very significant degree. Children coming from the type of background that you or I had, would certainly benefit from preschool, in the sense that socialization and some time in new surroundings is nearly always a good thing. However, children bring the pluses and minuses of their homelife/opportunities with them.

Homes that provide good background for self-discipline and encourage curiosity, love of new situations, and good social skills are likely to produce good students.

The best preschools/schools in the world will not help a child that is impoverished in mind or body at home.

 

[uscitizen]

I never had kindergarten nor headstart.
They did not exist back then.
I did pretty well though. My parents actually took care of me and taught me to read write and have basic math skills before I started school at age 6.

Now we expect others to raise our children for us.

That would reiterate my point on success or failure to a very significant degree. Children coming from the type of background that you or I had, would certainly benefit from preschool, in the sense that socialization and some time in new surroundings is nearly always a good thing. However, children bring the pluses and minuses of their homelife/opportunities with them.

Homes that provide good background for self-discipline and encourage curiosity, love of new situations, and good social skills are likely to produce good students.

The best preschools/schools in the world will not help a child that is impoverished in mind or body at home.

Very true a troubled child from a troubled family will have trouble in school and cause problems for other children as well. Since we humans so love to share trouble.

 

[Annie]

I never had kindergarten nor headstart.
They did not exist back then.
I did pretty well though. My parents actually took care of me and taught me to read write and have basic math skills before I started school at age 6.

Now we expect others to raise our children for us.

That would reiterate my point on success or failure to a very significant degree. Children coming from the type of background that you or I had, would certainly benefit from preschool, in the sense that socialization and some time in new surroundings is nearly always a good thing. However, children bring the pluses and minuses of their homelife/opportunities with them.

Homes that provide good background for self-discipline and encourage curiosity, love of new situations, and good social skills are likely to produce good students.

The best preschools/schools in the world will not help a child that is impoverished in mind or body at home.

Very true a troubled child from a troubled family will have trouble in school and cause problems for other children as well. Since we humans so love to share trouble.

Unfortunately that is correct. Between extremes are the middle, within the middle is a wide continuum. There are kids who have scads of books, toys, yet no one plays/reads with them, instead they watch tv or play videos. Yet, there are times that friends will come over or a babysitter and the books, toys are used. Funny thing, as I said earlier, most kids prefer these activities over the sitting of the box, yet they want/need the social and interaction. Sooo.

Now children of indigent parent(s) or neglectful/abusive homes, well that's a whole different scenario. It's unreal how many kids come into preschool or worse yet, kindergarten without knowing colors, basic shapes, numbers, alphabet. Where I live the only children not in preschool are those with 'fantastic' parents or neglectful ones.

 

[IanC]

In “The Case for $320,000 Kindergarten Teachers,” David Leonhardt poses the question “How much do your kindergarten teacher and classmates affect the rest of your life?”

On Tuesday, Mr. Chetty presented the findings — not yet peer-reviewed — at an academic conference in Cambridge, Mass. They’re fairly explosive. […]

Students who had learned much more in kindergarten were more likely to go to college than students with otherwise similar backgrounds. Students who learned more were also less likely to become single parents. As adults, they were more likely to be saving for retirement. Perhaps most striking, they were earning more.

How Did Kindergarten Affect You? - The Learning Network Blog - NYTimes.com

Comments?

Without seeing the actual study it is hard to tell how big the effect is, perhaps 5% of K students being enough to produce the results. I know from personal experience that involved parents game the system to get the teachers they want for their child. While they may or may not be picking the best teacher it does mean that children with the strongest family support are likely to bunch up in the same classes. And typically value school even if they are not outstanding scholars.

Just pointing out that many factors are not captured by standard studies. And that unusual findings could have unusual causes.