The Bush Tax Cuts and the Republican Cult of Economic Failure

[Saikron]

What really should be said is there is no GOOD REASON why the Bush Tax Cuts Shouldn't BE EXTENDED!!!

It is a bad idea to raise taxes during this weak recovery, but the Bush tax cuts added $1.5 trillion to the debt. Had the tax cuts not occurred, the debt would be lower. That is a good reason to, eventually, allow the Bush tax cuts to expire.

But wouldn't it also be as good or better to simply spend less and/or bring in the 'missing' revenue via taxation of those paying zero in income taxes? Or are you saying that it must come from a disproportionate rate on only a select few persons within the citizenry?

There 3 types of people paying 0 income taxes in this country.
1) Exceptionally poor people. An income tax Y on poor people is not proportional to the same size tax Y on a rich person. If you are spending basically all of your income on food, housing, health care, etc then you have no money to give the government for taxes. This is why there is a 0 percent tax rate on the bottom bracket.

2)Some of the richest people in the country that earn money from investments. Warren Buffett famously claims that he pays less taxes than his secretary or something like that. This is because capital gains tax on investment revenue is only 15%. If you salary yourself into the bottom tax bracket by say... paying yourself 1 dollar a year, then you can make millions of dollars a year on the stock market and pay 0% income tax on your 1 dollar, and 15% capital gains tax on your millions.

3)Fuckin' cheatin' jerkoffs. People that cheat on taxes are clustered at the ends of the spectrum. Lower class people who get paid under the table and rich people that can hire smart guys that know how to hide income sometimes pay 0 income tax.

Which of these groups did you intend on bringing into the fold, and how?

Now, the reason that flat tax is not possible is because there isn't a happy medium rate that would allow people that live paycheck to paycheck and super wealthy people to pay anywhere near what the government currently uses. Flat taxes put the tax burden more heavily on the poor and middle class because they need more of their income to survive, and frequently a flat tax incorporates a higher sales tax to make up for the huge shortfall. Sales taxes put the burden even MORE heavily on the poor and middle class for the same reason.

Informed analysis of flat tax and higher sales taxes have shown to create huge shortfalls and place the tax burden more heavily on the poor and middle class.

 

[Toro]

As to the OP, it is a hack piece. He is assuming correlation as causation. He argues that the tax cuts were "a complete failure" because economic growth was low. That's a false argument. The answer is the same for Obama's stimulus. It's not the absolute amount that matters. What matters is what would have happened in absence of the cuts. And growth probably would have been lower had they not occurred. Hacks like Fiderer would then have complained how even worse the Bush performance was.

What most people simply don't understand is that the last 10 years have been unlike the preceding 50 following WWII. Bush had to deal with the fallout from the collapse of the Tech Bubble, of which he had no responsibility. Perhaps he could have done better, but the economy would have been weak no matter what he did. People are clueless for primarily blaming Bush and the Republicans.

Likewise, the hacks on the Right are clueless for blaming Obama for this mess. The economy would still be bad no matter who was President. One could argue that Obama's policies are making business more reticent about hiring, but even if they weren't, unemployment would still be high and the economy would still be weak.

This is about the nature of this recession, not politics. Political people don't want to believe that. They are most interested in taking shots and blaming the other side for what happened, when in fact, much of this occurred outside of the political arena.

 

[DiamondDave]

It is a bad idea to raise taxes during this weak recovery, but the Bush tax cuts added $1.5 trillion to the debt. Had the tax cuts not occurred, the debt would be lower. That is a good reason to, eventually, allow the Bush tax cuts to expire.

But wouldn't it also be as good or better to simply spend less and/or bring in the 'missing' revenue via taxation of those paying zero in income taxes? Or are you saying that it must come from a disproportionate rate on only a select few persons within the citizenry?

There 3 types of people paying 0 income taxes in this country.
1) Exceptionally poor people. An income tax Y on poor people is not proportional to the same size tax Y on a rich person. If you are spending basically all of your income on food, housing, health care, etc then you have no money to give the government for taxes. This is why there is a 0 percent tax rate on the bottom bracket.

2)Some of the richest people in the country that earn money from investments. Warren Buffett famously claims that he pays less taxes than his secretary or something like that. This is because capital gains tax on investment revenue is only 15%. If you salary yourself into the bottom tax bracket by say... paying yourself 1 dollar a year, then you can make millions of dollars a year on the stock market and pay 0% income tax on your 1 dollar, and 15% capital gains tax on your millions.

3)Fuckin' cheatin' jerkoffs. People that cheat on taxes are clustered at the ends of the spectrum. Lower class people who get paid under the table and rich people that can hire smart guys that know how to hide income sometimes pay 0 income tax.

Which of these groups did you intend on bringing into the fold, and how?

Now, the reason that flat tax is not possible is because there isn't a happy medium rate that would allow people that live paycheck to paycheck and super wealthy people to pay anywhere near what the government currently uses. Flat taxes put the tax burden more heavily on the poor and middle class because they need more of their income to survive, and frequently a flat tax incorporates a higher sales tax to make up for the huge shortfall. Sales taxes put the burden even MORE heavily on the poor and middle class for the same reason.

Informed analysis of flat tax and higher sales taxes have shown to create huge shortfalls and place the tax burden more heavily on the poor and middle class.

So you support unequal treatment when it benefits you, and equal treatment when it benefits you

Got it



In equality is both good and bad... but freedom and equal treatment by government is still very much preferable over this subjective 'fairness' bullshit

 

[sangha]

I love how Huffingglue Post geared the numbers to make it appear like Carter was a good President!

Word to FUCKING morons. Yes Bush sucked, but during his Presidency at least unemployment remained low (in the 3-4%). Then the bubble burst, which is neglected to prevent!

However the Bubble was started during the Clinton Administration with the Fagget Frank and Douche Bag Dobbs and Pedolphile Clinton reviving the Carter ERROR Community Reinvestment Act. They also allowed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac the ability to create a secondary market where investors could write shitty loans and sell them for nice profits to these quasi-governmental organizations. The Clinton Administration is the main cause of the bubble bursting! He is definitely no altar boy!

What really should be said is there is no GOOD REASON why the Bush Tax Cuts Shouldn't BE EXTENDED!!!

Comedy gold.

How are the numbers geared? Do you mean the crappy GDP growth or the crappy job growth?

The government had little to nothing to do with the "bubble bursting." You are confusing yourself. The CRA didn't coerce banks into giving bad loans - in fact it contains language saying explicitly "don't be a retard and give bad loans" (I'm paraphrasing there.) The CRA also isn't a factor in the housing market because commercial property values were skyrocketing at similar rates.

You don't know enough about this to have an opinion about it yet, but there is time to learn!

Tax cuts for the rich increase the deficit and don't help the economy as much as other ways the government could use its budget.

Here's a bit of Republican inspired logic: Instead of keeping taxes on the rich low, let them rise and use that money we are saving to invest in education. This will give rich people a new generation of an educated work force to employ and higher-earning consumers to pay more for their products MAKING THEM EVEN MORE FILTHY AND MORE RICH! Hurray!

Tax cuts do not increase the deficit.... increased spending on touchy-feely and ever expanding government programs increases the deficit


Here's a bit lost on idiot progressive entitlement junkies like yourself... TAX EVERYONE AT THE SAME RATE ON EVERY DOLLAR EARNED.... not some form of punishment class envy based selective equal treatment by government

Funny, but I bet you will see calls for tax cuts when everyone has a stake in the income tax game and not having ~50% leech off of the productive members of the populace

In wingnut world, tax cuts increase tax revenues which reduces govt spending because we all know that the govt spends less when it takes in more money

Watch how spending went down starting in 1980 with Reagans tax cuts

Oh Wait!!!! Spending went UP!!! How the fuck did that happen?

But at least those tax cuts reduced the deficit (Phew!!)

Oh wait, the deficit increased too!!

But at least we had job growth

Hmmm, that's odd!! The two worst decades for job growth were decades when wingnuts cut taxes

I wonder how the wingnut economists will explain this one

 

[Saikron]

So you support unequal treatment when it benefits you, and equal treatment when it benefits you

Got it



In equality is both good and bad... but freedom and equal treatment by government is still very much preferable over this subjective 'fairness' bullshit

If you read very carefully and slowly, I actually explained in simple terms how a flat tax and high sales tax is not equal treatment, which isn't as important as say... being unable to pay a higher tax bracket if you live paycheck to paycheck in the 0% bracket.

I am lol'ing at your double think in that post about you want equal treatment not... equal treatment???

You are supposed to be making a cogent argument about how poor people paying lower taxes isn't fair to rich people paying higher taxes not babbling keywords.

 

[DiamondDave]

Comedy gold.

How are the numbers geared? Do you mean the crappy GDP growth or the crappy job growth?

The government had little to nothing to do with the "bubble bursting." You are confusing yourself. The CRA didn't coerce banks into giving bad loans - in fact it contains language saying explicitly "don't be a retard and give bad loans" (I'm paraphrasing there.) The CRA also isn't a factor in the housing market because commercial property values were skyrocketing at similar rates.

You don't know enough about this to have an opinion about it yet, but there is time to learn!

Tax cuts for the rich increase the deficit and don't help the economy as much as other ways the government could use its budget.

Here's a bit of Republican inspired logic: Instead of keeping taxes on the rich low, let them rise and use that money we are saving to invest in education. This will give rich people a new generation of an educated work force to employ and higher-earning consumers to pay more for their products MAKING THEM EVEN MORE FILTHY AND MORE RICH! Hurray!

Tax cuts do not increase the deficit.... increased spending on touchy-feely and ever expanding government programs increases the deficit


Here's a bit lost on idiot progressive entitlement junkies like yourself... TAX EVERYONE AT THE SAME RATE ON EVERY DOLLAR EARNED.... not some form of punishment class envy based selective equal treatment by government

Funny, but I bet you will see calls for tax cuts when everyone has a stake in the income tax game and not having ~50% leech off of the productive members of the populace

In wingnut world, tax cuts increase tax revenues which reduces govt spending because we all know that the govt spends less when it takes in more money

Watch how spending went down starting in 1980 with Reagans tax cuts

Oh Wait!!!! Spending went UP!!! How the fuck did that happen?

But at least those tax cuts reduced the deficit (Phew!!)

Oh wait, the deficit increased too!!

But at least we had job growth

Hmmm, that's odd!! The two worst decades for job growth were decades when wingnuts cut taxes

I wonder how the wingnut economists will explain this one

Again... another nutter assuming causation with coincidence

Increasing taxes does not create any sustainable job growth...


And funny that you see me calling for the vast elimination of much government spending and many government departments and agencies... you also see me calling for completely equal tax rates on every dollar earned by every citizen with zero exceptions.... you also see me calling for a balanced budget, and associated amendment, that includes payment to reduce debt and the proper across-the-board tax rate that facilitates that

 

[Bfgrn]

What really should be said is there is no GOOD REASON why the Bush Tax Cuts Shouldn't BE EXTENDED!!!

It is a bad idea to raise taxes during this weak recovery, but the Bush tax cuts added $1.5 trillion to the debt. Had the tax cuts not occurred, the debt would be lower. That is a good reason to, eventually, allow the Bush tax cuts to expire.

If the Bush tax cuts are made permanent, it will us 5 trillion dollar over 10 years.

If it is a bad idea to raise taxes during this weak recovery or recession, it is a fatal idea to cut social services.

During the Great Depression conservatives raised objections to F.D.R.’s work and assistance programs. They said the economy must be left alone and it would correct itself in the long run. Commerce Secretary Harry Hopkins shot back: “People don’t eat in the long run. They eat every day.”

"Republicans care more about property, Democrats care more about people"
Ted Sorensen - President Kennedy's Special Counsel & Adviser, and primary speechwriter

 

[DiamondDave]

So you support unequal treatment when it benefits you, and equal treatment when it benefits you

Got it



In equality is both good and bad... but freedom and equal treatment by government is still very much preferable over this subjective 'fairness' bullshit

If you read very carefully and slowly, I actually explained in simple terms how a flat tax and high sales tax is not equal treatment, which isn't as important as say... being unable to pay a higher tax bracket if you live paycheck to paycheck in the 0% bracket.

I am lol'ing at your double think in that post about you want equal treatment not... equal treatment???

You are supposed to be making a cogent argument about how poor people paying lower taxes isn't fair to rich people paying higher taxes not babbling keywords.

No, asshole... it is equal treatment... whether the outcome from the equal treatment leaves everyone on the same footing or not

Idiot

 

[sangha]

Tax cuts do not increase the deficit.... increased spending on touchy-feely and ever expanding government programs increases the deficit


Here's a bit lost on idiot progressive entitlement junkies like yourself... TAX EVERYONE AT THE SAME RATE ON EVERY DOLLAR EARNED.... not some form of punishment class envy based selective equal treatment by government

Funny, but I bet you will see calls for tax cuts when everyone has a stake in the income tax game and not having ~50% leech off of the productive members of the populace

In wingnut world, tax cuts increase tax revenues which reduces govt spending because we all know that the govt spends less when it takes in more money

Watch how spending went down starting in 1980 with Reagans tax cuts

Oh Wait!!!! Spending went UP!!! How the fuck did that happen?

But at least those tax cuts reduced the deficit (Phew!!)

Oh wait, the deficit increased too!!

But at least we had job growth

Hmmm, that's odd!! The two worst decades for job growth were decades when wingnuts cut taxes

I wonder how the wingnut economists will explain this one

Again... another nutter assuming causation with coincidence

Increasing taxes does not create any sustainable job growth...


And funny that you see me calling for the vast elimination of much government spending and many government departments and agencies... you also see me calling for completely equal tax rates on every dollar earned by every citizen with zero exceptions.... you also see me calling for a balanced budget, and associated amendment, that includes payment to reduce debt and the proper across-the-board tax rate that facilitates that

But, but, wingnuts tell me all the time that cutting taxes results in lower spending, lower deficits, lower debt, and higher job creation.....except when they don't

Even funnier, this wingnut doesn't think tax cuts do all those great things, and he likes tax cuts

And yes, I see all kinds of wingnuts TALKING about reducing spending, blah blah blah - they're the ones who racked up 75% of the nations debt.

If wingnuts didn't lie, they'd have nothing to say

 

[Saikron]

So you support unequal treatment when it benefits you, and equal treatment when it benefits you

Got it



In equality is both good and bad... but freedom and equal treatment by government is still very much preferable over this subjective 'fairness' bullshit

If you read very carefully and slowly, I actually explained in simple terms how a flat tax and high sales tax is not equal treatment, which isn't as important as say... being unable to pay a higher tax bracket if you live paycheck to paycheck in the 0% bracket.

I am lol'ing at your double think in that post about you want equal treatment not... equal treatment???

You are supposed to be making a cogent argument about how poor people paying lower taxes isn't fair to rich people paying higher taxes not babbling keywords.

No, asshole... it is equal treatment... whether the outcome from the equal treatment leaves everyone on the same footing or not

Idiot

So if we execute everybody if they are Jewish, that is equal treatment because everybody gets executed if they are Jewish. It doesn't matter that in the end only Jews got executed.

I think I follow! Wait... no.. lost it.

 

[sangha]

The rich have just as much right as the poor to sleep under bridges

 

[DiamondDave]

If you read very carefully and slowly, I actually explained in simple terms how a flat tax and high sales tax is not equal treatment, which isn't as important as say... being unable to pay a higher tax bracket if you live paycheck to paycheck in the 0% bracket.

I am lol'ing at your double think in that post about you want equal treatment not... equal treatment???

You are supposed to be making a cogent argument about how poor people paying lower taxes isn't fair to rich people paying higher taxes not babbling keywords.

No, asshole... it is equal treatment... whether the outcome from the equal treatment leaves everyone on the same footing or not

Idiot

So if we execute everybody if they are Jewish, that is equal treatment because everybody gets executed if they are Jewish. It doesn't matter that in the end only Jews got executed.

I think I follow! Wait... no.. lost it.

you are confusing equalized outcome to equal treatment.. then trying to back it up with a nonsensical hypothetical

If everyone is fined $450 for a speeding ticket of 20+ over the speed limit, regardless of their income... that is equal treatment... fining one speeder at $10 because they only make $25K a year and another $1000 because they make $200K a year is unequal treatment

Should be simple to follow... except to an agenda driven leftist

 

[sangha]

No, asshole... it is equal treatment... whether the outcome from the equal treatment leaves everyone on the same footing or not

Idiot

So if we execute everybody if they are Jewish, that is equal treatment because everybody gets executed if they are Jewish. It doesn't matter that in the end only Jews got executed.

I think I follow! Wait... no.. lost it.

you are confusing equalized outcome to equal treatment.. then trying to back it up with a nonsensical hypothetical

If everyone is fined $450 for a speeding ticket of 20+ over the speed limit, regardless of their income... that is equal treatment... fining one speeder at $10 because they only make $25K a year and another $1000 because they make $200K a year is unequal treatment

Should be simple to follow... except to an agenda driven leftist

The wingnut thinks we're talking about MV violations

 

[DiamondDave]

The rich have just as much right as the poor to sleep under bridges

Yep... I can go sleep under a bridge too, even though I own a house and pay my bills, and take the very same risks as the poor person sleeping there... And the poor can walk on the very same public sidewalks that I do...

And your point is WHAT?

 

[DiamondDave]

So if we execute everybody if they are Jewish, that is equal treatment because everybody gets executed if they are Jewish. It doesn't matter that in the end only Jews got executed.

I think I follow! Wait... no.. lost it.

you are confusing equalized outcome to equal treatment.. then trying to back it up with a nonsensical hypothetical

If everyone is fined $450 for a speeding ticket of 20+ over the speed limit, regardless of their income... that is equal treatment... fining one speeder at $10 because they only make $25K a year and another $1000 because they make $200K a year is unequal treatment

Should be simple to follow... except to an agenda driven leftist

The wingnut thinks we're talking about MV violations

You want other examples of equal treatment???

And I guess with your reasoning, you think we were talking about arbitrary Jewish executions??

Again... you try and justify thru more equalized outcome, which is not the same as equal treatment...

Damn, you are thick as a brick

 

[Saikron]

No, asshole... it is equal treatment... whether the outcome from the equal treatment leaves everyone on the same footing or not

Idiot

So if we execute everybody if they are Jewish, that is equal treatment because everybody gets executed if they are Jewish. It doesn't matter that in the end only Jews got executed.

I think I follow! Wait... no.. lost it.

you are confusing equalized outcome to equal treatment.. then trying to back it up with a nonsensical hypothetical

If everyone is fined $450 for a speeding ticket of 20+ over the speed limit, regardless of their income... that is equal treatment... fining one speeder at $10 because they only make $25K a year and another $1000 because they make $200K a year is unequal treatment

Should be simple to follow... except to an agenda driven leftist

My hypothetical was better because like income tax, we would go to every household and ask all the people if they were Jewish like we would give everybody flat tax.

It's "equal treatment", but only specific groups are getting cluster fucked by it, through no fault of their own. It's stupid to compare that to speeding tickets where somebody clearly screwed up and pays the same penalty as other people that screw up.

Also, when you can get around to it, I asked which of the 3 groups you meant when you said you wanted to start collecting taxes from people paying 0 income tax. I also outlined why flat tax was basically impossible, but you seem more interested in explaining why it's fair for the government to shaft poor people and let rich people off with a tiny income tax.

 

[sangha]

you are confusing equalized outcome to equal treatment.. then trying to back it up with a nonsensical hypothetical

If everyone is fined $450 for a speeding ticket of 20+ over the speed limit, regardless of their income... that is equal treatment... fining one speeder at $10 because they only make $25K a year and another $1000 because they make $200K a year is unequal treatment

Should be simple to follow... except to an agenda driven leftist

The wingnut thinks we're talking about MV violations

You want other examples of equal treatment???

And I guess with your reasoning, you think we were talking about arbitrary Jewish executions??

Again... you try and justify thru more equalized outcome, which is not the same as equal treatment...

Damn, you are thick as a brick

If wingnuts didn't lie, they'd have nothing to say

I said nothing about outcomes. I said that we're talking about taxes, not tickets.

Tickets are punishment meted out by our judicial system, and justice is blind to income

Taxes are not punishment, and are not collected or enforced by our judicial system. Only a wingnut would think income taxes are blind to income

 

[Bfgrn]

In wingnut world, tax cuts increase tax revenues which reduces govt spending because we all know that the govt spends less when it takes in more money

Watch how spending went down starting in 1980 with Reagans tax cuts

Oh Wait!!!! Spending went UP!!! How the fuck did that happen?

But at least those tax cuts reduced the deficit (Phew!!)

Oh wait, the deficit increased too!!

But at least we had job growth

Hmmm, that's odd!! The two worst decades for job growth were decades when wingnuts cut taxes

I wonder how the wingnut economists will explain this one

Again... another nutter assuming causation with coincidence

Increasing taxes does not create any sustainable job growth...


And funny that you see me calling for the vast elimination of much government spending and many government departments and agencies... you also see me calling for completely equal tax rates on every dollar earned by every citizen with zero exceptions.... you also see me calling for a balanced budget, and associated amendment, that includes payment to reduce debt and the proper across-the-board tax rate that facilitates that

But, but, wingnuts tell me all the time that cutting taxes results in lower spending, lower deficits, lower debt, and higher job creation.....except when they don't

Even funnier, this wingnut doesn't think tax cuts do all those great things, and he likes tax cuts

And yes, I see all kinds of wingnuts TALKING about reducing spending, blah blah blah - they're the ones who racked up 75% of the nations debt.

If wingnuts didn't lie, they'd have nothing to say

What conservatives won't tell you (probably because they don't even know) is what Dick Cheney said to then Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill who argued against a second round of Bush tax cuts...‘You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. We won the mid-term elections, this is our due.’

 

[Saikron]

The wingnut thinks we're talking about MV violations

You want other examples of equal treatment???

And I guess with your reasoning, you think we were talking about arbitrary Jewish executions??

Again... you try and justify thru more equalized outcome, which is not the same as equal treatment...

Damn, you are thick as a brick

If wingnuts didn't lie, they'd have nothing to say

I said nothing about outcomes. I said that we're talking about taxes, not tickets.

Tickets are punishment meted out by our judicial system, and justice is blind to income

Taxes are not punishment, and are not collected or enforced by our judicial system. Only a wingnut would think income taxes are blind to income

sangha quit trolling my idiot, go find your own to play with!

 

[sangha]

you are confusing equalized outcome to equal treatment.. then trying to back it up with a nonsensical hypothetical

If everyone is fined $450 for a speeding ticket of 20+ over the speed limit, regardless of their income... that is equal treatment... fining one speeder at $10 because they only make $25K a year and another $1000 because they make $200K a year is unequal treatment

Should be simple to follow... except to an agenda driven leftist

The wingnut thinks we're talking about MV violations

You want other examples of equal treatment???

And I guess with your reasoning, you think we were talking about arbitrary Jewish executions??

Again... you try and justify thru more equalized outcome, which is not the same as equal treatment...

Damn, you are thick as a brick

If wingnuts didn't lie, they'd have nothing to say. I said nothing about outcomes.

I think you should talk about taxes instead of chanting slogans about outcomes. That's what is being discussed. Taxes; Not traffic tickets.