The Burden of Proof

[The Rabbi]

Do you understand that the CBO scored its jobs report based not on empirical observable evidence but based on an assumption that may not be valid?

 

[Immanuel]

And seen from the other side of the aisle


Liberal: Obama's policies have created 4.5 jobs and begun the recovery.
Conservative: Prove it.
Liberal: Here are 2 articles
Conservative: HuffPo? Rly? You can't trust them. NYT? Rly? You can't trust them.
Liberal: OK, can you prove that isn't the case?
Conservative: ....

Four and a half jobs? Really? And that is something to be proud of?

Let's see, I wonder which of his friends and family members he got jobs in the White House? hehe.

Really... good OP. Too many people just don't understand what providing proof means.

Immie

 

[Intense]

Just a thought here. The CDZ is about civil debate and discussion. True when assertions are made, it is constructive to back them up, but not necessary. It is good form to Link the Sources that structure your argument, when your argument is rooted in something you read. That is not the case with constructive argument based in reason, not dealing with specific occurrences or articles, is it? OP's start the Threads, they don't own them, the Site does. Site Rules apply.

We are asked here to Post with Courtesy, towards Each Other. No Digg's, No Name Calling, No Flames. Try to keep it positive. Say what you need to say with Civil Discourse and Respect for the Other Posters here. This Forum is not about censoring the message, it is more about developing form in how it is portrayed. In many ways we are all doing well here. It is nice to see posters more focused on message, than all of the distractions, side tracks, derails, and hijackings we commonly see elsewhere.

I see what youre saying and agree to a point.

In my opinion, civil discourse is compromised by blanket clearly biased statements.

As far as "the distractions" go, which is in my opinion another subject entirely, theyre seeping in as well.

We have issues with the OP's that's a given, false premises from both sides, inflammatory statements, both open and disguised, still, there is improvement. One step forward, two steps back? That remains to be seen. There are members from both sides, that are working through it all. Report what is in violation.

 

[Intense]

And seen from the other side of the aisle


Liberal: Obama's policies have created 4.5 jobs and begun the recovery.
Conservative: Prove it.
Liberal: Here are 2 articles
Conservative: HuffPo? Rly? You can't trust them. NYT? Rly? You can't trust them.
Liberal: OK, can you prove that isn't the case?
Conservative: ....

Four and a half jobs? Really? And that is something to be proud of?

Let's see, I wonder which of his friends and family members he got jobs in the White House? hehe.

Really... good OP. Too many people just don't understand what providing proof means.

Immie

LOL thanks for catching that. 4.5 MILLION jobs.

But hey, even if its ONLY 4.5 jobs. Thats 4.5 more than the last guy created right?

Bush was hit with 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan. Obama has outspent Bush every year he has been in office. How about you give Bush a rest?

 

[saveliberty]

And seen from the other side of the aisle


Liberal: Obama's policies have created 4.5 jobs and begun the recovery.
Conservative: Prove it.
Liberal: Here are 2 articles
Conservative: HuffPo? Rly? You can't trust them. NYT? Rly? You can't trust them.
Liberal: OK, can you prove that isn't the case?
Conservative: ....

Four and a half jobs? Really? And that is something to be proud of?

Let's see, I wonder which of his friends and family members he got jobs in the White House? hehe.

Really... good OP. Too many people just don't understand what providing proof means.

Immie

LOL thanks for catching that. 4.5 MILLION jobs.

But hey, even if its ONLY 4.5 jobs. Thats 4.5 more than the last guy created right?

Businesses created those jobs, not the government. When Obama gets below 4% unemployment, he might have something to talk about. 8.3% is just sad after the length of time that has passed. We are currently a few months away from confirming a second recession.

 

[Immanuel]

And seen from the other side of the aisle


Liberal: Obama's policies have created 4.5 jobs and begun the recovery.
Conservative: Prove it.
Liberal: Here are 2 articles
Conservative: HuffPo? Rly? You can't trust them. NYT? Rly? You can't trust them.
Liberal: OK, can you prove that isn't the case?
Conservative: ....

Four and a half jobs? Really? And that is something to be proud of?

Let's see, I wonder which of his friends and family members he got jobs in the White House? hehe.

Really... good OP. Too many people just don't understand what providing proof means.

Immie

LOL thanks for catching that. 4.5 MILLION jobs.

But hey, even if its ONLY 4.5 jobs. Thats 4.5 more than the last guy created right?

Well, that is debateable. He may have gotten 4.5 jobs for friends, one was only part time? but how many others of us lost their jobs after he forced Obamacare down our throats and due to his parties anti-corporate behavior?

Now, I say that and I am asking a question. I'm not ascerting that I am right in that, but I lost my job after Obamacare was signed and I am certain it was due to the economic troubles we were facing. It took me over two years to find a replacement job and I don't believe I am alone in that experience.

I will ascert that this nation hit hard times. I believe they were bound to come. I do not believe that we can lay all the blame at the feet of either President or Party. My personal feeling is that the blame lies on Washington's door step not on an individual.

Immie

 

[saveliberty]

The invisible depression is here - financial crisis - MSN Money

A source...

 

[Intense]

The invisible depression is here - financial crisis - MSN Money

A source...

Personally, all politics aside, it feels like a Depression to me.

 

[Vidi]

Four and a half jobs? Really? And that is something to be proud of?

Let's see, I wonder which of his friends and family members he got jobs in the White House? hehe.

Really... good OP. Too many people just don't understand what providing proof means.

Immie

LOL thanks for catching that. 4.5 MILLION jobs.

But hey, even if its ONLY 4.5 jobs. Thats 4.5 more than the last guy created right?

Well, that is debateable. He may have gotten 4.5 jobs for friends, one was only part time? but how many others of us lost their jobs after he forced Obamacare down our throats and due to his parties anti-corporate behavior?

Now, I say that and I am asking a question. I'm not ascerting that I am right in that, but I lost my job after Obamacare was signed and I am certain it was due to the economic troubles we were facing. It took me over two years to find a replacement job and I don't believe I am alone in that experience.

I will ascert that this nation hit hard times. I believe they were bound to come. I do not believe that we can lay all the blame at the feet of either President or Party. My personal feeling is that the blame lies on Washington's door step not on an individual.

Immie

Now the burden of proof lies with you. Can you show evidence that people have lost jobs due to Obamacare?

Anecdoctally, I can say I know my wifes company ( a health insurance company here in MN ) has hired a whole lot of new people to man the phones and sell insurance now that its mandated.Each new hire must be liscenced is paid nearly 20 bucks an hour AND gets commissions for each sale.

 

[Intense]

LOL thanks for catching that. 4.5 MILLION jobs.

But hey, even if its ONLY 4.5 jobs. Thats 4.5 more than the last guy created right?

Well, that is debateable. He may have gotten 4.5 jobs for friends, one was only part time? but how many others of us lost their jobs after he forced Obamacare down our throats and due to his parties anti-corporate behavior?

Now, I say that and I am asking a question. I'm not ascerting that I am right in that, but I lost my job after Obamacare was signed and I am certain it was due to the economic troubles we were facing. It took me over two years to find a replacement job and I don't believe I am alone in that experience.

I will ascert that this nation hit hard times. I believe they were bound to come. I do not believe that we can lay all the blame at the feet of either President or Party. My personal feeling is that the blame lies on Washington's door step not on an individual.

Immie

Now the burden of proof lies with you. Can you show evidence that people have lost jobs due to Obamacare?

Anecdoctally, I can say I know my wifes company ( a health insurance company here in MN ) has hired a whole lot of new people to man the phones and sell insurance now that its mandated.Each new hire must be liscenced is paid nearly 20 bucks an hour AND gets commissions for each sale.

Obama should run on that. The Administrator's and Bureaucrat's President. Don't worry at all about creating, providing, manufacturing, a thing, "We are in Charge now, we get to place the blame, take the credit, without doing a thing to actually earn our Salaries." Health Insurance Companies should make a pretty penny now that we have a gun to our heads, and as soon as they even start falling behind the curve, they can just deny service. Great ponzi scheme, government backed, just like the best of them. The people that actually provide goods and services, they are the chumps, right?

 

[Immanuel]

LOL thanks for catching that. 4.5 MILLION jobs.

But hey, even if its ONLY 4.5 jobs. Thats 4.5 more than the last guy created right?

Well, that is debateable. He may have gotten 4.5 jobs for friends, one was only part time? but how many others of us lost their jobs after he forced Obamacare down our throats and due to his parties anti-corporate behavior?

Now, I say that and I am asking a question. I'm not ascerting that I am right in that, but I lost my job after Obamacare was signed and I am certain it was due to the economic troubles we were facing. It took me over two years to find a replacement job and I don't believe I am alone in that experience.

I will ascert that this nation hit hard times. I believe they were bound to come. I do not believe that we can lay all the blame at the feet of either President or Party. My personal feeling is that the blame lies on Washington's door step not on an individual.

Immie

Now the burden of proof lies with you. Can you show evidence that people have lost jobs due to Obamacare?

Anecdoctally, I can say I know my wifes company ( a health insurance company here in MN ) has hired a whole lot of new people to man the phones and sell insurance now that its mandated.Each new hire must be liscenced is paid nearly 20 bucks an hour AND gets commissions for each sale.

Anecdoctally, I did give proof. The loss of my job is proof as well as the fact that during those nearly two and a half years of searching for a job, I was told by dozens of perspective employers that they had received 500 or more resumes for one job. My experience is as valid as your wife's and besides after the gift Obama gave the Insurance companies at least until politicians enact single payer health care, each of the insurance companies needed to hire a couple of hundred employees to man the phones. That didn't come close to fixing the issue.

But since you ask for proof, here you go...

How Obamacare Hurts Job Creation - Economic Intelligence (usnews.com)

Any business owner can tell you that the rising cost of healthcare has been one of their top concerns for years—but what has them really worried is the increased layers of cost, regulation, and uncertainty stemming from Obamacare. Instead of making the problem of healthcare costs better, it makes it much worse.

[See a collection of political cartoons on healthcare.]

According to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, Obamacare will reduce the labor force by 800,000 over the next decade and estimates that the cost to American businesses due to inability or failure to comply will be $52 billion. The last thing our economy needs is even more hurdles to job creation, yet that is precisely what the healthcare law represents.

For a small-to-medium sized business, the prospect of having to comb through the 2,700 pages of Obamacare to figure out which of the $525 billion in taxes, or $26 billion in penalties, or hundreds of new regulations and mandates apply to them is daunting, to say the least. Is it any surprise that healthcare costs have risen already? Fifty-seven percent of employers nationwide say that healthcare costs have risen due to Obamacare, and in my home state of North Carolina, premium costs are projected to increase by 5.2 percent over last year's costs

Obamacare is a jobs killer. Employers are worried about the effects it is going to have on them. The fact that no one read it when it was passed scared the hell out of people.

Me? I am probably one of the few whose biggest beef is that we just gave the U.S. Government control of more than 1/6 of the U.S. Economy and there is not a damned thing we can do about it when they start putting the screws to us.

Immie

 

[saveliberty]

LOL thanks for catching that. 4.5 MILLION jobs.

But hey, even if its ONLY 4.5 jobs. Thats 4.5 more than the last guy created right?

Well, that is debateable. He may have gotten 4.5 jobs for friends, one was only part time? but how many others of us lost their jobs after he forced Obamacare down our throats and due to his parties anti-corporate behavior?

Now, I say that and I am asking a question. I'm not ascerting that I am right in that, but I lost my job after Obamacare was signed and I am certain it was due to the economic troubles we were facing. It took me over two years to find a replacement job and I don't believe I am alone in that experience.

I will ascert that this nation hit hard times. I believe they were bound to come. I do not believe that we can lay all the blame at the feet of either President or Party. My personal feeling is that the blame lies on Washington's door step not on an individual.

Immie

Now the burden of proof lies with you. Can you show evidence that people have lost jobs due to Obamacare?

Anecdoctally, I can say I know my wifes company ( a health insurance company here in MN ) has hired a whole lot of new people to man the phones and sell insurance now that its mandated.Each new hire must be liscenced is paid nearly 20 bucks an hour AND gets commissions for each sale.

How does Obamacare save us money if the new jobs pay $20 an hour?

 

[Vidi]

Well, that is debateable. He may have gotten 4.5 jobs for friends, one was only part time? but how many others of us lost their jobs after he forced Obamacare down our throats and due to his parties anti-corporate behavior?

Now, I say that and I am asking a question. I'm not ascerting that I am right in that, but I lost my job after Obamacare was signed and I am certain it was due to the economic troubles we were facing. It took me over two years to find a replacement job and I don't believe I am alone in that experience.

I will ascert that this nation hit hard times. I believe they were bound to come. I do not believe that we can lay all the blame at the feet of either President or Party. My personal feeling is that the blame lies on Washington's door step not on an individual.

Immie

Now the burden of proof lies with you. Can you show evidence that people have lost jobs due to Obamacare?

Anecdoctally, I can say I know my wifes company ( a health insurance company here in MN ) has hired a whole lot of new people to man the phones and sell insurance now that its mandated.Each new hire must be liscenced is paid nearly 20 bucks an hour AND gets commissions for each sale.

Anecdoctally, I did give proof. The loss of my job is proof as well as the fact that during those nearly two and a half years of searching for a job, I was told by dozens of perspective employers that they had received 500 or more resumes for one job. My experience is as valid as your wife's and besides after the gift Obama gave the Insurance companies at least until politicians enact single payer health care, each of the insurance companies needed to hire a couple of hundred employees to man the phones. That didn't come close to fixing the issue.

But since you ask for proof, here you go...

How Obamacare Hurts Job Creation - Economic Intelligence (usnews.com)

Any business owner can tell you that the rising cost of healthcare has been one of their top concerns for years—but what has them really worried is the increased layers of cost, regulation, and uncertainty stemming from Obamacare. Instead of making the problem of healthcare costs better, it makes it much worse.

[See a collection of political cartoons on healthcare.]

According to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, Obamacare will reduce the labor force by 800,000 over the next decade and estimates that the cost to American businesses due to inability or failure to comply will be $52 billion. The last thing our economy needs is even more hurdles to job creation, yet that is precisely what the healthcare law represents.

For a small-to-medium sized business, the prospect of having to comb through the 2,700 pages of Obamacare to figure out which of the $525 billion in taxes, or $26 billion in penalties, or hundreds of new regulations and mandates apply to them is daunting, to say the least. Is it any surprise that healthcare costs have risen already? Fifty-seven percent of employers nationwide say that healthcare costs have risen due to Obamacare, and in my home state of North Carolina, premium costs are projected to increase by 5.2 percent over last year's costs

Obamacare is a jobs killer. Employers are worried about the effects it is going to have on them. The fact that no one read it when it was passed scared the hell out of people.

Me? I am probably one of the few whose biggest beef is that we just gave the U.S. Government control of more than 1/6 of the U.S. Economy and there is not a damned thing we can do about it when they start putting the screws to us.

Immie

*I* am an employer. *I* am a small business owner ( four in fact with a fifth in the planning stages )

Im not worried about Obamacare at all.

You know why? I dont believe the claims that it will force me to let people go. Because it wont. Costs increase every year. Your article claims that it will rise 5.2 % in NC next year. Guess what? It rose that much in some years BEFORE Obamacare.

AND most of the initiatives that are going into place to *try* to hold down costs, arent even in place yet.

However, THIS month will be a BIG month for Obamacare and support for it will rise. This month is the first time that health insurance companies will be sending out the rebate checks. Those rebate checks go into employer hands and guess what? Theyre SUPPOSE to share that money with their employees BUT...

The law gives employers up to three months and considerable discretion to decide how to spend the employees’ money, so long as it is eventually used to benefit insurance plan participants. And while some employers are returning the money directly in paychecks, or planning “premium holidays” that increase take-home pay, others are weighing different options, benefits consultants said, like reducing next year’s premium, or spending the refund on so-called wellness programs that reward workers who lose weight or quit smoking.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/10/n...-stall-in-employers-hands.html?pagewanted=all

So as long as an employer is creative, they can effectively hold onto that money.

The rebates also COST the Insurance companies. Its red tape that they have to pay for out of their percentage. So they dont want the hassle of sending all that money back every year, which makes it incumbent on them to lower costs, which SHOULD translate into lower premium costs. I say SHOULD because that has yet to be proven. Personally, I expect premium costs to rise for at least three years before they settle back down as insurance companies find the "sweet spot"

 

[Intense]

Bottom line the Obama Plan is pie in the sky unrealistic. It promises too much, which it won't be able to deliver. The more that take advantage, the bigger the crash will be, with over compensation on the one hand, unnecessary procedures on the other, it will only be a matter of when will the shit hit the fan.

 

[Vidi]

Bottom line the Obama Plan is pie in the sky unrealistic. It promises too much, which it won't be able to deliver. The more that take advantage, the bigger the crash will be, with over compensation on the one hand, unnecessary procedures on the other, it will only be a matter of when will the shit hit the fan.

I think youre assuming the government is paying for everything.

 

[Wiseacre]

Proof in politics and economics is just about impossible. Which as far as I can tell is where the bulk of the emotional distress come from. For the most part somebody is comparing one administration to another, which of course means different circumstances. Or a comparison is done between what acutually happened compared to what could or should have happened had things been done differently. Which is unproveable in either case; the best one can do is at least provide some support for proffered statistics and resultant conclusions. Or some line of reasoning that shows how you got to your pov.

Opinions are fine if delivered without backup as long as they are reasonable. Doesn't hurt to preface your post by identifying it as such. Somebody else may not agree, but we should be able to disagree without being disagreeable.

 

[Avatar4321]

So Harry Reid should put up or shut up...

Perfect example.

This is a remark that has nothing to do with the original post, does not clarify its relation with either critcal thought, explaination or a link to data backing up the assertion.

Actually, it seems to have everything to do with the OP. He provided an example of what you were opposing. And I doubt there is anyone ignorant as to what Harry Reid said last week.

So in a way, you are right, it's a perfect example.

 

[Avatar4321]

And seen from the other side of the aisle


Liberal: Obama's policies have created 4.5 jobs and begun the recovery.
Conservative: Prove it.
Liberal: Here are 2 articles
Conservative: HuffPo? Rly? You can't trust them. NYT? Rly? You can't trust them.
Liberal: OK, can you prove that isn't the case?
Conservative: ....

Four and a half jobs? Really? And that is something to be proud of?

Let's see, I wonder which of his friends and family members he got jobs in the White House? hehe.

Really... good OP. Too many people just don't understand what providing proof means.

Immie

I think people tend to confuse evidence with proof. A relatively few things can be proven concretely. Most of what happens is we provide evidence we find convining and others dont find it as convincing. And then since we find it convincing we cant understand why they dont. Which causes contention. etc.

 

[Intense]

Bottom line the Obama Plan is pie in the sky unrealistic. It promises too much, which it won't be able to deliver. The more that take advantage, the bigger the crash will be, with over compensation on the one hand, unnecessary procedures on the other, it will only be a matter of when will the shit hit the fan.

I think you're assuming the government is paying for everything.

The Government is making Demands Others, We , will pay for.

August 6, 2012
Another Survey Reveals Higher Costs, Broken Obamacare Promises

The National Business Group on Health this morning released their annual survey of employer health insurance policies. The survey found that health insurance costs are expected to rise another 7% next year. In addition, a majority (60%) of firms “plan to increase the percentage of the premium paid by employees in 2013,” while sizable numbers of firms plan to increase in-network deductibles (40%), out-of-network deductibles (33%), and/or out-of-pocket maximums (32%).

Candidate Obama repeatedly promised premiums would go down by $2,500 -- and would go down that amount by this year. Yet while candidate Obama promised that premiums would go DOWN by $2,500, they actually have gone UP by nearly as much -- from $12,680 in 2008 to $15,073 in 2011.

http://www.demint.senate.gov/public...ecord_id=3dc4d412-cd30-4a41-98ac-b01a96e7c468

 

[M14 Shooter]

Although Si Modo posted a wondeful post about debate which was made sticky, there seems to be some confusion here about something important. That something is called Burden of Proof.

If one were to make a certain claim, then it is up to that person to provide some sort of proof as to that claims validity.

Yup. No question.