The biggest mistake the US made

Without nukes an invasion of japan would killed or wounded more than 200,000 American soldiers

Oh, it would have been many more than that.

One thing that I do not trust is the "casualty estimates" made for the expected Invasion of Japan. They were almost all based upon statistics and figures from the battles in Europe. Where culturally an army would try to retreat or surrender if things were hopeless. As the militaries in Europe had a long tradition of (normally) fair treatment and repatriation after the war was concluded.

Japan however was a different culture, where fighting to the death was the accepted outcome. And even barbarism like the slaughtering of all captured was accepted as what the victors did. Like after over 2 years of captivity essentially as slaves, the remaining 93 civilian prisoners of war on Wake were taken to a beach and machine gunned when their captors thought the island was going to be invaded soon.



And even Secretary of War Henry Stimson was questioning them, in light of the recently concluded Battle of Okinawa (as well as others ranging from Saipan and Iwo Jima to Guadalcanal and Tarawa). On most battlefields against the Japanese, the Japanese deaths ranged from 80% to over 90% (of the over 2,700 military and civilians on Tarawa, only 148 were captured, on Iwo Jima only 216 of around 21,000 were captured). So he tasked future Nobel Prize winning mathematician William Shockley to conduct his own study into what could be expected.

And what Shockley reported based primarily on the casualties from Okinawa shocked those who read it.

The entire War in Europe from D-Day to VE Day saw 766,294 Allied casualties. The Invasion of Japan he estimated would see from between 1.7 to 4 million casualties. Of those, around 700,000 fatalities. And among the civilian population of Japan, from 5 to 10 million fatalities. And take from 2 to 4 years

The Battle of Okinawa compared to the Invasion of Japan would have just been a warm-up skirmish. Yet, that one battle saw close to 80,000 casualties. Shockley simply confirmed what Secretary Stimson already feared. That the estimates he was getting from MacArthur and the others were completely wrong. Especially when MacArthur was expecting "23,000 casualties in the first 30 days", which is 1/3 less than the actual number on Okinawa. And we know now that that was based on an estimate of 300,000 Japanese soldiers on Kyushu. While the actual number was over 900,000.

And Admiral King had estimated 30 day casualty numbers of around 35-40,000. Once again, frightfully low but consider what that would mean. 2 to 4 more years of war, with as many as 40,000 dying every month. That is 4 times the numbers wounded and killed in Normandy. Every month for years.

And most estimates also stated that the "Conquest of Japan" would take an additional 2-4 years. The country and the world were already tired of war, and just wanted it over.
 
Here is the real irony of the Showa Emperor that most do not seem to realize. He was entirely a puppet of his own Privy Council. They made all decisions, and simply put his name to them.

For hundreds of years, the Emperors of Japan had almost no power. Everything was decided and enacted to be done in their name, normally by the Shogun or whoever was filling that equivalent role. That all ended though during the Meiji Restoration, when essentially a "Self-Coup" brought down the 255 years of rule by the Tokugawa Shogunate and allowed the Emperor to take control himself.

However, that was not to last. When he died in 1912, his son Taisho assumed the throne. And he was always sickly and in poor health, starting with contracting cerebral meningitis at less than a month old. And many have suggested he suffered mental deficiencies and other issues as he was almost never seen in public after taking the throne. And before his reign even ended, his Privy Council had largely resumed the old custom of ruling in his name.

And in 1918, only 6 years into his rule he was unable to even attend to the rituals required of his office. Like opening the Diet, officiating at the graduation of Army and Navy officers from the academy, and the rites required of the Emperor under Shinto. So in 1919. 18 year old Crown Prince Hirohito was named as "Prince Regent", taking over those ceremonial duties from his father. And ultimately, that is likely what had led to WWII.

One of the strongest Emperors in centuries if not longer, followed by a sickly Emperor that could barely perform his duties. But instead of a Shogun to assume the mantle, it became largely the military and senior Court Officials. Add into that, a young Prince Regent for 8 years that had absolutely no power, his duties were only ceremonial.

So it is no wonder that when Emperor Taisho passed and Emperor Showa took the throne, things remained the same. The Emperor once again locked away, out of touch with his own people and the Privy Council ruling in his name. He could not even speak or vote in his own council unless they were deadlocked (which happened exactly once during his entire reign).

So in reality, the Emperor would have "allowed" nothing. He was mute in the affairs of the Government, he could do or say nothing. That decision would have been made by the Privy Council, which already showed that they were prepared to fight to the death. And by August 1945, the Privy Council had been replaced by the "Supreme Council for the Direction of the War" (commonly called the "Big Six"). The Prime Minister, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of War, the Minister of the Navy, the Army Chief of Staff, and the Navy Chief of Staff. Only one of which was a civilian (Togo), the other five were all Admirals and Generals.

I have long believed that through Koichi Kido (Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal) the Emperor was able to get the Minister of the Navy (Admiral Yonai) to flip his vote, which ultimately resulted in the deadlock where for the first time he was able to steer them towards accepting Potsdam. And he was the most likely of them to flip, as he was known to have been a large supporter of relations with the UK and US, and against the Tripartite Pact when he was Prime Minister. In fact, it was his public statements against Germany and Italy that forced his resignation in 1940, two months before the Tripartite Pact was signed.

But I have absolutely no doubt that if not for the bombs and invasion by the Soviets, the Big Six would have ordered every man, woman, and child in Japan to fight to the death. Their culture is accepting of suicide, and was full of examples of hopeless fights that were done anyways because honor demanded it. Ranging from the early 18th century "47 Ronin", to even post-war culture like the "Seven Samurai" (which has been remade many times in the US, ranging from "The Magnificent Seven" to "A Bug's Life").
/——-/ WOW. Thank you for that explanation.
 
It was a tough decision but in the end more lives were saved than lost. An invasion of Japan would have been a blood bath
Their Only Hope Was Not Hopeless

The Japanese strategy of fighting to the last man had a good chance of making the American public demand that we pull out, especially since an already devastated Japan wouldn't be a threat for a long time. Even then, we would have it surrounded and stopped cold before it could pull off anything like Pearl Harbor.

From the shallow education of our hired opinionists, we are trained to believe that the Japanese were willing to fight on when there was no hope for victory.
 
/——-/ WOW. Thank you for that explanation.

I actually lived in Japan, and have great respect for the nation and culture. And have been studying both them and the war for over 4 decades.

I often try to explain that the country is so different (especially in the early Showa era) that it is almost incomprehensible to outsiders. It is absolutely nothing that most Eurocentric people have ever considered. Other than for a brief period during the Meiji era, the Emperor literally had no power. In his own Privy Council, he had about as much say as the Vice President does as the President of the Senate. They are not allowed to speak, they are not allowed to influence anything involved in their duties. The only time they get a vote is if the Senate is in a 50-50 deadlock. Which by the way has happened a total of 294 times since 1789. In fact, during his entire term as Vice President, President Biden never once was allowed to vote in the Senate as they were never tied.

It was largely a military dictatorship, not unlike the Argentine Junta. The Big Six made all decisions, and the Emperor literally would sit behind a screen unseen and listen to them debate, but was not allowed to say anything. And when they reached an agreement, his name was attached to it and he had no say in the matter.

The only other time he ever spoke was when he was asked prior to war what he wanted. And he recited a poem written by his grandfather called "Universal Brotherhood".

It is our hope
That all the world's oceans
Be joined in peace,
So why do the winds and waves
Now rise up in angry rage?

Which the council knew was the only way he could signal his disapproval of the war they wanted. But it did not matter, and they all voted to go to war anyways even though the emperor disapproved.

And one thing most do not know, was that he was so isolated that he did not actually "speak Japanese". He spoke an older, more archaic form of Japanese that was about a thousand years old. And after the "Jeweled Voice" recording was broadcast that announced the surrender, they actually had to have a translator to tell the Japanese people what the Emperor had actually said. Because the formal court Japanese that he used was known to very few. It would be like somebody giving a speech today in Old English.

And to give an example, here are the opening lines of Beowulf, in Old English:

Hwæt! Wé Gárdena in géardagum
þéodcyninga þrym gefrúnon·
hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Almost incomprehensible, but it really is in English. Just a version as different than what we speak today as Court Japanese was from Common Japanese. This is how we would say the same lines now.

Listen! We of the Spear-Danes in the days of yore,
of those clan-kings heard of their glory.
how those nobles performed courageous deeds.
 
Oh, it would have been many more than that.

One thing that I do not trust is the "casualty estimates" made for the expected Invasion of Japan. They were almost all based upon statistics and figures from the battles in Europe. Where culturally an army would try to retreat or surrender if things were hopeless. As the militaries in Europe had a long tradition of (normally) fair treatment and repatriation after the war was concluded.

Japan however was a different culture, where fighting to the death was the accepted outcome. And even barbarism like the slaughtering of all captured was accepted as what the victors did. Like after over 2 years of captivity essentially as slaves, the remaining 93 civilian prisoners of war on Wake were taken to a beach and machine gunned when their captors thought the island was going to be invaded soon.



And even Secretary of War Henry Stimson was questioning them, in light of the recently concluded Battle of Okinawa (as well as others ranging from Saipan and Iwo Jima to Guadalcanal and Tarawa). On most battlefields against the Japanese, the Japanese deaths ranged from 80% to over 90% (of the over 2,700 military and civilians on Tarawa, only 148 were captured, on Iwo Jima only 216 of around 21,000 were captured). So he tasked future Nobel Prize winning mathematician William Shockley to conduct his own study into what could be expected.

And what Shockley reported based primarily on the casualties from Okinawa shocked those who read it.

The entire War in Europe from D-Day to VE Day saw 766,294 Allied casualties. The Invasion of Japan he estimated would see from between 1.7 to 4 million casualties. Of those, around 700,000 fatalities. And among the civilian population of Japan, from 5 to 10 million fatalities. And take from 2 to 4 years

The Battle of Okinawa compared to the Invasion of Japan would have just been a warm-up skirmish. Yet, that one battle saw close to 80,000 casualties. Shockley simply confirmed what Secretary Stimson already feared. That the estimates he was getting from MacArthur and the others were completely wrong. Especially when MacArthur was expecting "23,000 casualties in the first 30 days", which is 1/3 less than the actual number on Okinawa. And we know now that that was based on an estimate of 300,000 Japanese soldiers on Kyushu. While the actual number was over 900,000.

And Admiral King had estimated 30 day casualty numbers of around 35-40,000. Once again, frightfully low but consider what that would mean. 2 to 4 more years of war, with as many as 40,000 dying every month. That is 4 times the numbers wounded and killed in Normandy. Every month for years.

And most estimates also stated that the "Conquest of Japan" would take an additional 2-4 years. The country and the world were already tired of war, and just wanted it over.

You and I know this

But students taught by revisionist lib teachers with a giant chip on their shoulder such as Unkotare will not know the true facts
 
Get a life

Without nukes an invasion of japan would killed or wounded more than 200,000 American soldiers

And 10 times that many japanese

It was one of the worst war crimes - if not the most evil war crime at all which had happened since human beings are existing - what the USA had done in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What otherwise had happened when this war crime not had happened knows no one. You opened the box of the Pandora with the total destruction of all mankind by a supermighty and superstupid power. Up to now no one else tried to open this box of the Pandora again. But year by year by year since this day constructed the nuclear superpowers in their superstupidity more possibilities to open the box of the Pandora again with their nukes.
 
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It was one of the worst war crimes - if not the most evil war crime at all which had happened since human beings are existing - what the USA had done in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What otherwise had happened when this war crime not had happened knows no one. You opened the box of the Pandora with the total destruction of all mankind by a supermighty and superstupid power. Up to now no one else tried to open this box of the Pandora again. But year by year by year since this day constructed the nuclear superpowers in their superstupidity more possibilities to open the box of the Pandora again with their nukes.
/----/ Actually, the firebombing of Tokyo was the most destructive in history, and all we used was napalm. Payback for Pearl Harbor.
It is considered the single most deadly bombing raid in history.

US forces firebombed Tokyo to force the Japanese to an early surrender in the dying months of World War II.

The atomic bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have dominated the retelling of WWII history, but as a single attack the bombing of Tokyo was more destructive.

The firestorms killed about 100,000 civilians and wiped out about half of the city.
 
/----/ Actually, the firebombing of Tokyo was the most destructive in history, and all we used was napalm. Payback for Pearl Harbor. ...

Asshole.
Pearl Harbor had been by the way not territory of the USA. You was in a foreign country and you was so damned stupid to let sink your fleet? And what had the inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to do with Pearl Harbor? Nothing or nothing? And what means "pay back"? When Russia will nuke New York you will nuke Moscow in the starting third world war now? Strange form of cash float.
 
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I am so sorry, I thought we were confident enough to admit the things we had done.

Is anyone denying we bombed Japan?

However, anyone with an objective view of the historical fact knows it was necessary to end the war and prevent further bloodshed on both sides.

I think Japan came out of it pretty well. They rebuilt their government, their economy, their arts and culture, and ... only occasionally ... are bothered by giant reptiles...

Gojira.jpeg
 
Cellblock2429

One of the most ugly characteristics of US-Americans is by the way your relation to "revenge". You do not have any idea how repulsive and nauseating it is for normal human beings to see the US-American government in their entertainement wars watching in real-time how their soldiers murder an enemy far from the USA - as they did do in case of Osama Bin Laden for example.
 
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Is anyone denying we bombed Japan?

However, anyone with an objective view of the historical fact knows it was necessary to end the war and prevent further bloodshed on both sides.

I think Japan came out of it pretty well. They rebuilt their government, their economy, their arts and culture, and ... only occasionally ... are bothered by giant reptiles...

View attachment 722489

You argue with a Gozilla film? Are you a mad child? Do you decide to murder masses of human beings like a child who kills a single fly? How is anyone able to take anything serios what US-Americans say?
 
Cellblock2429

One of the most ugly characteristics of US-Americans is by the way your relation to "revenge". You do not have any idea how repulsive and nauseating it is for normal human beings to see the US-American government in their entertainement wars watching in real-time how their soldiers murder an enemy far from the USA - as they did do in case of Osama Bin Laden for example.
/-----/ Tissue? Don't mess with the US.
 

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