The Best Part of Electric Vehicles

[Rigby5]

Coal is used to produce 19% of the electricity in the US.

View attachment 560615

And since our grid runs on baseline power and most people would be charging an EV at night there really wouldn't need to be an increase in power production and the emissions produced from electrical power generation wouldn't really increase and even if they did it would still be a net reduction in emissions if more people drove EVs

I disagree.
First of all, they hide the use of coal in the US.
Like CA claims it uses no coal at all, but the reality is that CA gets more than half of its electricity from temporary contracts in NV, NM, AZ, UT, etc. that are all coal.
CA just claims they don't know what these out of state sources are, so they don't have to list them.
Second is that sure natural gas got cheap from all that fracking, but fracking releases huge amounts of natural gas into the atmosphere, which is way worse than CO2, so is about 5 times more polluting than coal even, and will shortly run out in less than 20 years.
And no, when power consumption drops, like at night, they turn off some of the generators, saving fuel. So if you start charging car batteries at night, you have to keep all the generators running all the time, so fuel consumption and emissions are greatly increased.
The facts are unavoidable.
Conversion of fossil fuel to energy is almost as dirty at an electrical power plant as it is in an efficient car.
But EVs are much worse because they add the waste of having to go into and out of batteries, as well as adding all that battery weight.
Europe and Asia have cars getting 100 mpg, and clearly that is the way to do, not EVs that add all that extra battery weight, cost, and energy loss.

 

[Blues Man]

I disagree.
First of all, they hide the use of coal in the US.
Like CA claims it uses no coal at all, but the reality is that CA gets more than half of its electricity from temporary contracts in NV, NM, AZ, UT, etc. that are all coal.
CA just claims they don't know what these out of state sources are, so they don't have to list them.
Second is that sure natural gas got cheap from all that fracking, but fracking releases huge amounts of natural gas into the atmosphere, which is way worse than CO2, so is about 5 times more polluting than coal even, and will shortly run out in less than 20 years.
And no, when power consumption drops, like at night, they turn off some of the generators, saving fuel. So if you start charging car batteries at night, you have to keep all the generators running all the time, so fuel consumption and emissions are greatly increased.
The facts are unavoidable.
Conversion of fossil fuel to energy is almost as dirty at an electrical power plant as it is in an efficient car.
But EVs are much worse because they add the waste of having to go into and out of batteries, as well as adding all that battery weight.
Europe and Asia have cars getting 100 mpg, and clearly that is the way to do, not EVs that add all that extra battery weight, cost, and energy loss.

Maybe you should post where you get your numbers

 

[Rigby5]

{...
According to a study by SNL, three out-of-state coal-fired power plants are providing up to 50 percent of the electricity for Southern California—the Intermountain Power Project in Utah, the San Juan plant in New Mexico and the Navajo plant in Arizona.
...}

California’s Hidden Coal Use - IER

California’s politicians would like you to believe that their electricity comes from non-coal sources. However, while there are very few…

www.instituteforenergyresearch.org

 

[Blues Man]

{...
According to a study by SNL, three out-of-state coal-fired power plants are providing up to 50 percent of the electricity for Southern California—the Intermountain Power Project in Utah, the San Juan plant in New Mexico and the Navajo plant in Arizona.
...}

California’s Hidden Coal Use - IER

California’s politicians would like you to believe that their electricity comes from non-coal sources. However, while there are very few…

www.instituteforenergyresearch.org

That's CA not the entire country.

 

[Rigby5]

{,,,,
Fracking releases large amounts of natural gas – which consists of both CO2 and methane – directly into the atmosphere. In fact, fracking wells leak 40 to 60 per cent more methane than conventional natural gas wells.3 This happens when water is forced down into a fracking well in order to fracture the rock formations. Methane flows up the well and is released into the atmosphere before it can be captured.4 The leaked methane is called “fugitive methane” and has been detected using infrared videos. It is identified as different from naturally occurring methane.5 Methane in particular is a very powerful greenhouse gas. It can trap 20 to 25 times more heat in the atmosphere than CO2 . Two Cornell scientists who have been studying fracking in the U.S. estimate that in the next 20 years methane will make up 44 per cent of the U.S.’s GHG emissions. Along with contributing to global warming pollution, methane leaks kill plants and trees, contribute to ozone formation, and causes natural gas explosions, which have resulted in an average of 17 deaths and 68 injuries per year in the United States alone.
...}

https://canadians.org/sites/default/files/publications/fracking-climate-change.pdf#:~:text=The%20lifecycle%20greenhouse%20gas%20emissions%20%E2%80%93%20that%20is,%E2%80%93%20directly%20into%20the%20atmosphere.%20In%20fact%2C%20fracking

 

[Rigby5]

That's CA not the entire country.

True, but if CA can hide that over 50% of its electricity is from coal, most other states are likely hiding some coal use.
And still, natural gas electricity production is no cleaner than coal, due to the leakage from fracking.

When you get down to reality, there is nothing cleaner than bio fuel in an internal combustion engine.
The only thing that WOULD be better is if we could produce hydrogen with fusion plants.
Current electrical generation and batteries just are bad, no way around that.

 

[Blues Man]

True, but if CA can hide that over 50% of its electricity is from coal, most other states are likely hiding some coal use.
And still, natural gas electricity production is no cleaner than coal, due to the leakage from fracking.

When you get down to reality, there is nothing cleaner than bio fuel in an internal combustion engine.
The only thing that WOULD be better is if we could produce hydrogen with fusion plants.
Current electrical generation and batteries just are bad, no way around that.

The numbers for the entire country include generation from all states so the 19% still stands.

No one is running an underground coal fired electricity generation network so no one is hiding anything.

 

[Rigby5]

The numbers for the entire country include generation from all states so the 19% still stands.

No one is running an underground coal fired electricity generation network so no one is hiding anything.

I gave you a link that substantiated the CA is more than 50% coal instead of the 0% that CA claimed.
And since CA is a state that would likely have the least coal, if they are actually over 50% coal, then likely all other states are even more coal than CA.
So how are these states getting away with claiming so little coal if they actually are mostly coal?
Just like CA, where they recently built new gas plants, and only list those.
They call the older coal plants as just auxiliary reserve, but in reality are running full tilt.
Why would they do that?
Because there are federal penalties they are deliberately running the coal from the underground, in order to avoid penalties.
I already proved CA is doing that.
Why is it so hard to understand they all are.
The is a reason $ for them to lie.

 

[Rigby5]

Electric Cars Can Produce More CO2 Emissions Than Gas Cars: Report | Stock News & Stock Market Analysis - IBD

Environment: If truth-in-advertising laws were properly enforced, any company that labeled a battery-powered car as "zero emissions" would be guilty of breaking the law. A new report, in fact, shows... Read More

www.investors.com

{...

Why Calling Electric Cars 'Zero Emission' Is Blatantly False Advertising​

Environment: If truth-in-advertising laws were properly enforced, any company that labeled a battery-powered car as "zero emissions" would be guilty of breaking the law. A new report, in fact, shows that electric cars can be worse than conventional cars when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions.

In a recent news release, General Motors (GM) said it planned to someday be an all-electric "zero emissions" car company. Toyota (TM) says it wants all its cars to be "zero emission" by 2050. Other car companies are making similar promises. The push to go electric is largely being driven by fears about global warming and the desire to reduce CO2 emissions.

But the term "zero emission" is so unbelievably and wildly misleading that it's a wonder anyone gets away using it.

Yes, the plug-in electric cars that automakers are touting — and states like California are mandating — don't emit pollutants from their tailpipes.

That doesn't mean they don't contribute to pollution. It just means that the source of the pollution moves from the car to a power plant. That's especially true when it comes to CO2 emissions, which the power plant might pump out in copious amounts, depending on its energy source.

So, every time an electric car gets recharged, it's contributing to additional CO2 emissions.

Just how much CO2 is made plain in a new report from the University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute. It calculated the CO2 emissions from plug-in electrics, depending on the energy sources used to generate electricity in various countries, and then translated that into miles per gallon.

The result is eye-opening.

The report — authored by Michael Sivak and Brandon Schoettle — notes that an electric car recharged by a coal-fired plant produces as much CO2 as a gasoline-powered car that gets 29 miles per gallon. (For context, the average mpg of all the cars, SUVs, vans and light trucks sold in the U.S. over the past year is 25.2 mpg.) A plug-in recharged by a natural gas-powered plant is like driving a car that gets 58 miles per gallon.
...}

My VW Jetta easily gets over 35mpg, and European and Asian cars are getting over 80 mpg.
When you count the natural gas that escapes from fracking, likely EVs pollute more than good internal combustion cars.

 

[Blues Man]

I gave you a link that substantiated the CA is more than 50% coal instead of the 0% that CA claimed.
And since CA is a state that would likely have the least coal, if they are actually over 50% coal, then likely all other states are even more coal than CA.
So how are these states getting away with claiming so little coal if they actually are mostly coal?
Just like CA, where they recently built new gas plants, and only list those.
They call the older coal plants as just auxiliary reserve, but in reality are running full tilt.
Why would they do that?
Because there are federal penalties they are deliberately running the coal from the underground, in order to avoid penalties.
I already proved CA is doing that.
Why is it so hard to understand they all are.
The is a reason $ for them to lie.

And that link doesn't negate the fact that in 2020 only 19% of all the electricity generated in the country was from coal fired plants.

CA imports a large portion of their electrcity from other states that doesn't mean that more than 19% of all the electricity generated in the states is done so via coal powered plants.

 

[Rigby5]

And that link doesn't negate the fact that in 2020 only 19% of all the electricity generated in the country was from coal fired plants.

CA imports a large portion of their electricity from other states that doesn't mean that more than 19% of all the electricity generated in the states is done so via coal powered plants.

No, the link said that all of the power CA imported was from coal, bringing CA up from the 0% coal they claimed, to over 50% coal.
{... three out-of-state coal-fired power plants are providing up to 50 percent of the electricity for Southern California ...}

Look back 20 years ago, and all states were over 60% coal.
They have not been building that many power plants since then.
The states just started claiming less coal so they can avoid fines.

Look at how crazy politics have become.
Biden did made this absurd promise.
{... The president has also pledged to eliminate all carbon emissions from the U.S. power sector by 2035 and committed at COP26 to stop funding fossil fuel projects abroad by the end of next year. ...}
The only way Biden could do that would be to build 2 at least 2 nuclear power plants in each state.
And obviously that is not going to happen.
Natural gas is not cleaner than coal as the newspapers try to imply, because natural gas comes from leaky fracking.

So they yes the states are all lying.
They have to, when you have a president making crazy threats.
In about 20 years, everyone will have to be going back to coal because we will be running out of gas and that will make the price too high, while we have 500 years worth of coal. The US has the largest coal reserves in the world.

 

[Rigby5]

Coal is our future, whether we like it or not.

 

[Blues Man]

No, the link said that all of the power CA imported was from coal, bringing CA up from the 0% coal they claimed, to over 50% coal.
{... three out-of-state coal-fired power plants are providing up to 50 percent of the electricity for Southern California ...}

Look back 20 years ago, and all states were over 60% coal.
They have not been building that many power plants since then.
The states just started claiming less coal so they can avoid fines.

Look at how crazy politics have become.
Biden did made this absurd promise.
{... The president has also pledged to eliminate all carbon emissions from the U.S. power sector by 2035 and committed at COP26 to stop funding fossil fuel projects abroad by the end of next year. ...}
The only way Biden could do that would be to build 2 at least 2 nuclear power plants in each state.
And obviously that is not going to happen.
Natural gas is not cleaner than coal as the newspapers try to imply, because natural gas comes from leaky fracking.

So they yes the states are all lying.
They have to, when you have a president making crazy threats.
In about 20 years, everyone will have to be going back to coal because we will be running out of gas and that will make the price too high, while we have 500 years worth of coal. The US has the largest coal reserves in the world.

I don't see what is so hard to understand here.

CA is not the entire country. We know exactly where and how all the electricity generated in the country is produced.

In the entire country in 2020 19% of all electricity came from coal fired plants. What electricity CA imports does not change the stats for the entire country.

 

[Old Rocks]

{...
According to a study by SNL, three out-of-state coal-fired power plants are providing up to 50 percent of the electricity for Southern California—the Intermountain Power Project in Utah, the San Juan plant in New Mexico and the Navajo plant in Arizona.
...}

California’s Hidden Coal Use - IER

California’s politicians would like you to believe that their electricity comes from non-coal sources. However, while there are very few…

www.instituteforenergyresearch.org

What a liar you are;

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

California is the fourth-largest electricity producer in the nation and accounted for about 5% of U.S. utility-scale (1-megawatt and larger) electricity net generation in 2019.24 Renewable resources, including hydropower and small-scale (less than 1-megawatt), customer-sited solar photovoltaic (PV) systems, supplied more than half of California's in-state electricity generation, and natural gas-fired power plants provided two-fifths. Nuclear power's share of state generation was less than one-tenth, down from nearly one-fifth in 2011. The decrease resulted from the retirement of the San Onofre nuclear power plant in mid-2013, which left the state with only one operating commercial nuclear power plant—the two-reactor Diablo Canyon facility.25,26,27

California has the nation's second-largest conventional hydroelectric generating capacity after the state of Washington.28 In 2019, the state was the second-largest producer of hydroelectric power, and it is consistently among the nation's top four hydropower producers.29 However, hydropower's contribution is highly variable. In 2015, because of prolonged drought, hydropower supplied only about 7% of California's utility-scale net generation. Hydropower's share has rebounded with increased precipitation, and, in 2019, it provided 19% of the state's electricity net generation.30,31 Fluctuations in California's hydroelectric generation and the reduction in the state's nuclear capacity and generation have been partially offset by nonhydroelectric renewable generation. Solar, wind, geothermal, and biomass energy provided about three-tenths of the state's net generation from utility-scale facilities in 2019.32 There is only a small amount of coal-fired generation in California, and it is all from industrial cogeneration units. In 2019, about 0.1% of California's net generation was fueled by coal.33,34

Almost three-tenths of California’s electricity comes from outside the state.
In 2019, California was the nation's largest net importer of electricity from out of state and received about 28% of its electricity supply from generating facilities outside the state.35,36 More than seven-tenths of the power delivered to California from states in the Pacific Northwest was from renewable energy sources, including large federal hydroelectric facilities. The Southwest, including energy imports from Arizona, Baja California, Colorado, Mexico, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, and Utah, delivered power generated from renewables, natural gas, nuclear energy, coal, or other, unspecified, resources. Slightly more than one-fourth of the southwestern power came from renewable sources. About 10% of California's total electricity imports are from coal-fired power plants, but coal's total contribution to the state's electricity supply from imports and in-state generation in 2019 was less than 3%.37 Electricity supplied from out-of-state coal-fired power plants decreased following the enactment of a state law in 2006 that requires California utilities to limit new long-term financial investments in baseload generation to power plants that meet California emissions performance standards. Essentially all of California's imports of coal-fired generation are projected to end by 2026.38

 

[Old Rocks]

Coal is our future, whether we like it or not.

LOL They are literally replacing coal fired plants with solar and wind and shutting them down because they are more expensive to run than it is to purchase the land and build and run solar and wind.

Looking at why a coal-powered closed in Texas

Power outages in Texas left many residents without heat and electricity during recent ice and snow storms. Some conserva

www.politifact.com

The Monticello plant near Pittsburg, Texas — about two hours east of Dallas — once had an operating capacity of 1,880 megawatts, which is enough to power as many as about 940,000 homes depending on conditions. But it has been offline since January 2018. Luminant, the state’s largest electricity generator, announced in October 2017 that it was retiring the plant.

In a statement, the president of Luminant’s parent company, Vistra, said "the market’s unprecedented low power price environment has profoundly impacted its operating revenues and no longer supports continued investment."

Before the plant could go offline, the state’s main grid operator, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, had to ensure that it wasn’t needed to supply reliable power to consumers.

Monticello was one of the state’s largest coal-powered plants, and the Houston Chronicle described it at the time as one in "a string of coal plant closures nationwide as a glut of cheap natural gas and continued advances in solar and wind energy technology continue to depress wholesale power prices."

 

[Rigby5]

I don't see what is so hard to understand here.

CA is not the entire country. We know exactly where and how all the electricity generated in the country is produced.

In the entire country in 2020 19% of all electricity came from coal fired plants. What electricity CA imports does not change the stats for the entire country.

No we do NOT at all know how all the electricity is being produced in the US.
The point is the feds have passed unrealistic regulations that would have cost electric utilities billions, so they are ignoring the ridiculous regulations and hiding the truth.
CA is the single largest user of electricity in the country, and if they actually are not 0% as they claim, but over 50% coal as know is true, then that total claim of 19% has to be wrong right there, and instead has to be over 30% coal in reality.
The reality is that fracking caused a temporary drop in gas prices, so then all states are trying to maximize the use of their gas powered plants, but they are still also using their coal plants, and in a decade or so when gas prices climb, they will have to switch back to coal entirely.
And again, natural gas production of electricity is NOT cleaner because natural gas comes from fracking, which allows so much natural gas to escape.
Escaped natural gas is over 10 times worse pollution than CO2.
CO2 is actually benign to humans and beneficial to plants.
Escaped natural gas not only is over 10 times the greenhouse gas, but also is toxic and carcinogenic.

 

[Rigby5]

What a liar you are;

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

California is the fourth-largest electricity producer in the nation and accounted for about 5% of U.S. utility-scale (1-megawatt and larger) electricity net generation in 2019.24 Renewable resources, including hydropower and small-scale (less than 1-megawatt), customer-sited solar photovoltaic (PV) systems, supplied more than half of California's in-state electricity generation, and natural gas-fired power plants provided two-fifths. Nuclear power's share of state generation was less than one-tenth, down from nearly one-fifth in 2011. The decrease resulted from the retirement of the San Onofre nuclear power plant in mid-2013, which left the state with only one operating commercial nuclear power plant—the two-reactor Diablo Canyon facility.25,26,27

California has the nation's second-largest conventional hydroelectric generating capacity after the state of Washington.28 In 2019, the state was the second-largest producer of hydroelectric power, and it is consistently among the nation's top four hydropower producers.29 However, hydropower's contribution is highly variable. In 2015, because of prolonged drought, hydropower supplied only about 7% of California's utility-scale net generation. Hydropower's share has rebounded with increased precipitation, and, in 2019, it provided 19% of the state's electricity net generation.30,31 Fluctuations in California's hydroelectric generation and the reduction in the state's nuclear capacity and generation have been partially offset by nonhydroelectric renewable generation. Solar, wind, geothermal, and biomass energy provided about three-tenths of the state's net generation from utility-scale facilities in 2019.32 There is only a small amount of coal-fired generation in California, and it is all from industrial cogeneration units. In 2019, about 0.1% of California's net generation was fueled by coal.33,34

Almost three-tenths of California’s electricity comes from outside the state.
In 2019, California was the nation's largest net importer of electricity from out of state and received about 28% of its electricity supply from generating facilities outside the state.35,36 More than seven-tenths of the power delivered to California from states in the Pacific Northwest was from renewable energy sources, including large federal hydroelectric facilities. The Southwest, including energy imports from Arizona, Baja California, Colorado, Mexico, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, and Utah, delivered power generated from renewables, natural gas, nuclear energy, coal, or other, unspecified, resources. Slightly more than one-fourth of the southwestern power came from renewable sources. About 10% of California's total electricity imports are from coal-fired power plants, but coal's total contribution to the state's electricity supply from imports and in-state generation in 2019 was less than 3%.37 Electricity supplied from out-of-state coal-fired power plants decreased following the enactment of a state law in 2006 that requires California utilities to limit new long-term financial investments in baseload generation to power plants that meet California emissions performance standards. Essentially all of California's imports of coal-fired generation are projected to end by 2026.38

Not true.
Of the states exporting electricity to CA, Arizona, Baja California, Colorado, Mexico, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, and Utah, only Nevada has renewable hydro electric.
All the rest are entirely coal or worse, from fracking.
What CA is telling the EPA is obviously a lie, to prevent fines.

 

[Rigby5]

LOL They are literally replacing coal fired plants with solar and wind and shutting them down because they are more expensive to run than it is to purchase the land and build and run solar and wind.

Looking at why a coal-powered closed in Texas

Power outages in Texas left many residents without heat and electricity during recent ice and snow storms. Some conserva

www.politifact.com

The Monticello plant near Pittsburg, Texas — about two hours east of Dallas — once had an operating capacity of 1,880 megawatts, which is enough to power as many as about 940,000 homes depending on conditions. But it has been offline since January 2018. Luminant, the state’s largest electricity generator, announced in October 2017 that it was retiring the plant.

In a statement, the president of Luminant’s parent company, Vistra, said "the market’s unprecedented low power price environment has profoundly impacted its operating revenues and no longer supports continued investment."

Before the plant could go offline, the state’s main grid operator, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, had to ensure that it wasn’t needed to supply reliable power to consumers.

Monticello was one of the state’s largest coal-powered plants, and the Houston Chronicle described it at the time as one in "a string of coal plant closures nationwide as a glut of cheap natural gas and continued advances in solar and wind energy technology continue to depress wholesale power prices."

No one can replace coal with solar.
Solar is not consistent and would require expensive and inefficient batteries.
Only Australia is trying that.
No one in the US is trying solar to replace coal.
The only replacement for coal is natural gas, and that is temporary due to fracking, which is dirtier than coal.

 

[Blues Man]

No we do NOT at all know how all the electricity is being produced in the US.
The point is the feds have passed unrealistic regulations that would have cost electric utilities billions, so they are ignoring the ridiculous regulations and hiding the truth.
CA is the single largest user of electricity in the country, and if they actually are not 0% as they claim, but over 50% coal as know is true, then that total claim of 19% has to be wrong right there, and instead has to be over 30% coal in reality.
The reality is that fracking caused a temporary drop in gas prices, so then all states are trying to maximize the use of their gas powered plants, but they are still also using their coal plants, and in a decade or so when gas prices climb, they will have to switch back to coal entirely.
And again, natural gas production of electricity is NOT cleaner because natural gas comes from fracking, which allows so much natural gas to escape.
Escaped natural gas is over 10 times worse pollution than CO2.
CO2 is actually benign to humans and beneficial to plants.
Escaped natural gas not only is over 10 times the greenhouse gas, but also is toxic and carcinogenic.

So you think that there are secret coal burning plants all over the country?

Unpermited, unlicensed uninspected coal fired power plants that all sell electricity to the public with no government knowledge?

 

[Captain Caveman]

Not happy in Portugal that EV's cost more to charge than to fill up and ICE car.

Drivers of electric cars âshockedâ by hidden costs of charging stations

Drivers of electric cars shocked by hidden costs of charging stations, making journeys more expensive than with traditional fossil fuels

www.portugalresident.com

But, that's Mickey Mouse EV's for you.