The Battle of Narratives - A Challenge

[Coyote]

The Israeli Palestinian conflict seems as much a battle of narratives than a physical conflict. Certainly in this place and each side seems wedded to their narratives, unwilling to consider the legitimacy of any others. The problem with this is each narrative is only partially true.

Why are people entirely closed to considering the other side's views? Maybe I am exagerating but I'm also frustrated and tired with IP and the same old same old.

For example - consider the following prevailing narratives that debaters are heavily invested in.

From Team Palestine:
Palestinians are hapless victims of Israeli aggression and bare no responsibility for their situation.
Israel is a non-legitimate occupying foreign entity and Palestinians can not be free as long as Israel exists.

From Team Israel:
Palestinians are uneducated Jew hating Jew killing thugs living off UN Welfare.
Israel is an innocent David under attack from the Arab Goliath and does no wrong.

Certain threads are interesting because they attempt to challenge the prevailing narratives - "Things I like about Israel" and the one on Israel's contributions to the world. My frustration is that while those threads are somewhat respected, attempts to create something similar for Palestinians gets trolled to death by Team Israel. Is it impossible for Team Israel to move away from their narratives and consider the Palestinians in different ways? I have no doubt Team Palestine is the same, but very few participate here any more. Tinmoore and me might be it. The big time antisemitic trolls have left, which is good, but so have potentially good contributers.

I held certain assumptions about the Palestinians until recently - when I was quite surprised by the education, entrepeneurship, and tenaciousness in the economic sector despite constant upheavel and uncertaintly. Their government is entrenched, no elections have been held in how long...? Corruption is a huge problem. The Israeli blockade, military retaliation, the POLITICS of trade - all create enormous obstacles for Palestinians. Yet they perservere and in that perserverence, their willingness to go around Palestinian Government and Israeli obstacles to succeed is admirable...but ignored, buried. Until I started looking I had no idea the level of high tech development going on, the high educational level for women - the fact that women are OVER REPRESENTED in physics for example, compared to other countries. The many start ups. The cooperative efforts between Palestinian entrepeneurs and Israeli entrepeneurs in defiance of Hamas' attempts to curtail such cooperative endeavors. Doing research on Palestinians to find positive stuff to combat the constant reiteration of "Palestinian violence" memes and the recycling of the same old stuff and pictures was eye opening. And is ignored both by Team Israel, who's need is to portray Palestinians as violent brutes and by Team Palestine who's need is to portray Palestinians as perpetual victims who can only succeed if Israel is gone.

I want to to present a challenge, a challenge to put yourself in another point of view. I did this once before, on another topic, and it was fun and informative. Did I change my views? In some ways yes, in other ways no but I gained a better understanding.

My challenge is this: Argue for The Other Side

A member of Team Palestine (I'm willing) and a member of Team Israel (anyone want to volunteer?) - will argue a mutually agreed upon topic from the other side's point of view.

It doesn't have to be just one - anyone can volunteer to done a pair of glasses and try to see things differently.

The rules we would set up would be this.

It would be one on one - we would set up one thread just for this. Members can click like, informative, etc but can not reply or participate - only the two debators.
You must do your best - do the research, present good arguments, intend to win the debate.
When both agree it's over and virtually shake hands - the thread is open to everyone. If desired, a winner can be "declared" based not on the view but on the argument they present (not sure if this is even possible in this environment).

It would be nice to have several such topics giving multiple members a chance to try, but even one would be interesting.

Is anyone interested in the challenge?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

What you’re proposing is actual, traditional, classic debate – a long lost art.

Is it understood that one must argue aggressively and in good faith in support of positions he would otherwise oppose?

The debate is won the consequence of sound reasoning, critical thinking, and the objective use of logic – not who is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ – consistent with the fact that there is no right or wrong with regard to the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Given what constitutes actual debate, one can see why it’s a long lost art.

 

[USAF 2023]

The Israeli Palestinian conflict seems as much a battle of narratives than a physical conflict. Certainly in this place and each side seems wedded to their narratives, unwilling to consider the legitimacy of any others. The problem with this is each narrative is only partially true.

Why are people entirely closed to considering the other side's views? Maybe I am exagerating but I'm also frustrated and tired with IP and the same old same old.

For example - consider the following prevailing narratives that debaters are heavily invested in.

From Team Palestine:
Palestinians are hapless victims of Israeli aggression and bare no responsibility for their situation.
Israel is a non-legitimate occupying foreign entity and Palestinians can not be free as long as Israel exists.

From Team Israel:
Palestinians are uneducated Jew hating Jew killing thugs living off UN Welfare.
Israel is an innocent David under attack from the Arab Goliath and does no wrong.

Certain threads are interesting because they attempt to challenge the prevailing narratives - "Things I like about Israel" and the one on Israel's contributions to the world. My frustration is that while those threads are somewhat respected, attempts to create something similar for Palestinians gets trolled to death by Team Israel. Is it impossible for Team Israel to move away from their narratives and consider the Palestinians in different ways? I have no doubt Team Palestine is the same, but very few participate here any more. Tinmoore and me might be it. The big time antisemitic trolls have left, which is good, but so have potentially good contributers.

I held certain assumptions about the Palestinians until recently - when I was quite surprised by the education, entrepeneurship, and tenaciousness in the economic sector despite constant upheavel and uncertaintly. Their government is entrenched, no elections have been held in how long...? Corruption is a huge problem. The Israeli blockade, military retaliation, the POLITICS of trade - all create enormous obstacles for Palestinians. Yet they perservere and in that perserverence, their willingness to go around Palestinian Government and Israeli obstacles to succeed is admirable...but ignored, buried. Until I started looking I had no idea the level of high tech development going on, the high educational level for women - the fact that women are OVER REPRESENTED in physics for example, compared to other countries. The many start ups. The cooperative efforts between Palestinian entrepeneurs and Israeli entrepeneurs in defiance of Hamas' attempts to curtail such cooperative endeavors. Doing research on Palestinians to find positive stuff to combat the constant reiteration of "Palestinian violence" memes and the recycling of the same old stuff and pictures was eye opening. And is ignored both by Team Israel, who's need is to portray Palestinians as violent brutes and by Team Palestine who's need is to portray Palestinians as perpetual victims who can only succeed if Israel is gone.

I want to to present a challenge, a challenge to put yourself in another point of view. I did this once before, on another topic, and it was fun and informative. Did I change my views? In some ways yes, in other ways no but I gained a better understanding.

My challenge is this: Argue for The Other Side

A member of Team Palestine (I'm willing) and a member of Team Israel (anyone want to volunteer?) - will argue a mutually agreed upon topic from the other side's point of view.

It doesn't have to be just one - anyone can volunteer to done a pair of glasses and try to see things differently.

The rules we would set up would be this.

It would be one on one - we would set up one thread just for this. Members can click like, informative, etc but can not reply or participate - only the two debators.
You must do your best - do the research, present good arguments, intend to win the debate.
When both agree it's over and virtually shake hands - the thread is open to everyone. If desired, a winner can be "declared" based not on the view but on the argument they present (not sure if this is even possible in this environment).

It would be nice to have several such topics giving multiple members a chance to try, but even one would be interesting.

Is anyone interested in the challenge?

Maybe I’m cutting to the chase too quick but “ Right of Return “ with Borders that were NEVER recognized before and giving up all rights to E. Jerusalen isn’t going to happen which is what they are demanding
I have posted that the PLO had FORMALLY stated that the Israelis had no rights to the Western Wall
I have also posted You Tube Videos in which Palestinians are claiming IF they got “ Right of Return “ ( never happen) Their goal is “ Back to 48” and to kick every Israeli out
Does EVERY PALESTINIAN feel that way? Of course not! But enough do that if Israel were stupid enough to do it there would be a Bloody Civil War

 

[Shusha]

I'm in. What were you thinking with respect to topic?

 

[Marion Morrison]

I am not well researched on the subject, but good luck with that! I hope to read some good points.

If nothing else, it's an interesting idea. May well could carry over to different subjects!

 

[Shusha]

Ooooh. Can I make a request?

I challenge P F Tinmore to a debate over the legal rights of each side to the territory. He argues for Israel. I argue for Palestine.

 

[Coyote]

I'm in. What were you thinking with respect to topic?

I am open to ideas, some possibles are:

The Blockade
Control of Religious sites

My mind is kind of stuck, perhaps everyone could throw some topics into the hat.

 

[Coyote]

Ooooh. Can I make a request?

I challenge P F Tinmore to a debate over the legal rights of each side to the territory. He argues for Israel. I argue for Palestine.

Great idea!

 

[Coyote]

I am not well researched on the subject, but good luck with that! I hope to read some good points.

If nothing else, it's an interesting idea. May well could carry over to different subjects!

The original topic I did it on was abortion with Alan, and it was a good discussion

 

[Shusha]

I'm in. What were you thinking with respect to topic?

I am open to ideas, some possibles are:

The Blockade
Control of Religious sites

My mind is kind of stuck, perhaps everyone could throw some topics into the hat.

Those are great topics.

Someone from Team Palestine will have to guide me about what exactly they want me to defend. Am I required to defend the idea, for example, that holy places should only be accessible to certain religions? Or am I permitted to argue from a more moderate Palestinian permission?

 

[Coyote]

I'm in. What were you thinking with respect to topic?

I am open to ideas, some possibles are:

The Blockade
Control of Religious sites

My mind is kind of stuck, perhaps everyone could throw some topics into the hat.

Those are great topics.

Someone from Team Palestine will have to guide me about what exactly they want me to defend. Am I required to defend the idea, for example, that holy places should only be accessible to certain religions? Or am I permitted to argue from a more moderate Palestinian permission?

That would have to be decided between the debaters, it would need to be well defined.

P F Tinmore would you be interested in giving this a shot?

 

[Picaro]

'Palestinians' don't exist, they are a complete fabrication; they're Syrians, and they are Syria's problem, and always have been . The OP is already off to promoting the Big Lie right off the bat.

 

[Coyote]

'Palestinians' don't exist, they are a complete fabrication; they're Syrians, and they are Syria's problem, and always have been . The OP is already off to promoting the Big Lie right off the bat.

Are you up for the challenge? Willing to argue the other side?

 

[Picaro]

'Palestinians' don't exist, they are a complete fabrication; they're Syrians, and they are Syria's problem, and always have been . The OP is already off to promoting the Big Lie right off the bat.

Are you up for the challenge? Willing to argue the other side?

There is no 'Palestinian' side, they don't exist; there is nothing to be 'up' for. No arguing needed, they referred to themselves as Syrians for at least several hundred years until Arafat made up another name for them. Their country still exists, they aren't 'refugees', and Israelis owe them nothing.

 

[Coyote]

'Palestinians' don't exist, they are a complete fabrication; they're Syrians, and they are Syria's problem, and always have been . The OP is already off to promoting the Big Lie right off the bat.

Are you up for the challenge? Willing to argue the other side?

There is no 'Palestinian' side, they don't exist; there is nothing to be 'up' for. No arguing needed, they referred to themselves as Syrians for at least several hundred years until Arafat made up another name for them. Their country still exists, they aren't 'refugees', and Israelis owe them nothing.

So the answer is no. You are not up to the challenge. Thank you.

 

[Picaro]

'Palestinians' don't exist, they are a complete fabrication; they're Syrians, and they are Syria's problem, and always have been . The OP is already off to promoting the Big Lie right off the bat.

Are you up for the challenge? Willing to argue the other side?

There is no 'Palestinian' side, they don't exist; there is nothing to be 'up' for. No arguing needed, they referred to themselves as Syrians for at least several hundred years until Arafat made up another name for them. Their country still exists, they aren't 'refugees', and Israelis owe them nothing.

So the answer is no. You are not up to the challenge. Thank you.

Well, you have that backwards; you don't have a 'challenge' when one 'side is entirely a fiction. You're not up to creating a legitimate challenge, is all. Make it about how Syria should take in their people and pay reparations to the Israelis and the UN for all the money they stole and the murders they committed and you will have a legit debate based in reality.