The Battle Between Faith And Reason

You're comparing apples and oranges. Religions are many things, one being a moral code and rules for living. Science is the study of the universe. It is amoral and should be. It can tell if a fertilized egg is human but it can't tell you if it is moral or immoral to kill it. When Darwinism became the basis for eugenics, that was a misuse of science, not science condoning eugenics. Many horrors have been done in the name of science just as many horrors have been done in the name of religion.



2. " When Darwinism became the basis for eugenics,...."

Darwinism?

It is the basis for Marxism/Liberalism/Progressivism......and has been proven false.
Yet you Leftists keep riding that horse.


Where would Leftism/Communism be without Charles Darwin???


If you were subject to the indoctrination of government schooling, you’ve probably come away believing Darwin’s theory is scientific fact. It isn't.

And Marx and Engel needed Darwin as the scientific basis for eliminating any need for religion.




“Charles Darwin’s On The Origin of Species (1859) provided the first scientific grounding in the notion of a world without God…”
Shapiro, “The Right Side Of History.”



Many, even today believe this to be proven….hence the danger of merely reading headlines. Darwin himself said he couldn’t prove it, and to this day, it has never been more than a useful theory. Darwin said that the only evidence of it would come from examining the fossil record : "... if my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties, linking closely together all the species of the same group, must assuredly have existed; but the very process of natural selection constantly tends, as has been so often remarked, to exterminate the parent-forms and the intermediate links. Consequently evidence of their former existence could be found only amongst fossil remains ..."
Darwin, "Origin," chapter six

"To the question why we do not find rich fossiliferous deposits belonging to these assumedearliest periods prior to the Cambrian system I can give no satisfactory answer . . . Nevertheless, the difficulty of assigning any good reason for the absence of vast piles of strata rich in fossils beneath the Cambrian system is very great." Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, chapter Ten


In fact, the fossil record shows the very opposite.
Darwin's never-proven theory is more useful to Marxism than it is to science.




Bet government school never told you that, did it.
You should avoid talking about the fossil record since you appear to know little about it. If you wish to discuss evolution you might what to cite source more recent than the 19th century.

Marxism appropriating Darwin is a perfect example of using science in a way that is not valid.



I know everything about it.

I am an expert on every topic I choose to post about.



Here, let's teach you that the fossil record proves the very opposite of what Darwin wrote.



1. Even the fossil record definitively rejects the concept of speciation. There is absolutely no sign in the record of the countless intermediate species that should have once lived according to Darwinism. It has now been acknowledged that Darwin's claim that these fossils would be found in the future is definitely incorrect. www.nationalacademyofsciencesrefuted.com

a. “He [Darwin] prophesied that future generations of paleontologists would fill in these gaps by diligent search….It has become abundantly clear that the fossil record will not confirm this part of Darwin’s predictions. Nor is the problem a miserably poor record. The fossil record simply shows that this prediction was wrong.” (Eldridge, Niles, The Myths of Human Evolution, 1984, pp.45-46.)

b. "The difficulty of understanding the absence of vast pile of fossiliferous strata, which on my theory were no doubt somewhere accumulated before the [Cambrian] epoch, is very great. I allude to the manner in which numbers of species of the same group suddenly appear in the lowest known fossiliferous rock."
Darwin, "On The Origin of Species," p. 306-307.


2. The discovery of the Burgess Shale deposits pretty much nailed it. The significance of the Burgess Shale discoveries is that the many new body plans show disparity, major differences that separate phyla, classes and orders ....and careful study of earlier fossils did not reveal any evolutionary trail!

a. "During this explosion of fauna, representatives of about twenty of the roughly twenty-six total phyla present in the known fossil record made their first appearance on earth." Meyers, "Darwin's Doubt," p. 31.

b. " To the question why we do not find rich fossiliferous deposits belonging to these assumed earliest periods prior to the Cambrian system, I can give no satisfactory answer..... The case at present must remain inexplicable; and may be truly urged as a valid argument against the views here entertained. " Charles Darwin X. On the Imperfection of the Geological Record. On the Sudden Appearance of Groups of Allied Species in the Lowest Known Fossiliferous Strata. Darwin, Charles Robert. 1909-14. Origin of Species. The Harvard Classics

c. It was not the multitude of phyla, or a sea change in complexity.....it was the missing evidence of progressive changes leading to this complexity. It was the missing ancestors in the Precambrian fossil record. Get it? There is no record of successive, often unsuccessful attempts leading to the "Cambrian Explosion"!!!


3. Harvard paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould studied the Burgess Shale. " Stephen Jay Gould's book "Wonderful Life," published in 1989, brought the Burgess Shale fossils to the public's attention. Gould suggests that the extraordinary diversity of the fossils indicate that life forms at the time were much more disparate in body form than those that survive today, and that many of the unique lineages were evolutionary experiments that became extinct." Burgess Shale - Wikipedia





4 But...it gets worse. Chinese paleontologist J.Y. Chen excavated a new discovery of Cambrian fossils in southern China, he brought to light an even greater variety of body plans from an even older layer of Cambrian rock than those of Burgess! And the Chinese fossils established that the Cambrian animals appeared even more explosively than previously imagined!!!

" A few of the gaps (which are systematic in the fossil record) they claim to fill, but there’s another deposit in the region that throws the whole evolutionary story into disrepute: the Chengyiang bed in southern China. Here, the Cambrian Explosion has been documented in fine detail; all the major animal phyla appear in the early Cambrian without precursors."

Chinese Fossil Beds Astound Paleontologists (Nature)

How about the sudden.....sudden....appearance of vertebrates in the Cambrian??

In 1999, paleontologists in Southern China also found fossil remains of fish in the Cambrian period. Fish are vertebrates, members of the phylum chordata. Shu, et. al., "Lower Cambrian Vertebrates in Southern China" (Haikouichthy) http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1420-9101.2004.00741.x/pdf


Whose theory does this sudden appearance seem to substantiate?

Poor, poor Darwin.

The fossil evidence from the Chinese discovery is a clear contradiction to Darwin orthodoxy.





In your face, booooyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!
I find it ludicrous that to refute Darwin you use quotes by Darwin, Niles, and Gould, all firm believers in evolution.



Marxists must pretend they believe Darwin was right.....it's their religion.


"Along came Stephen J, Gould, and Niles Eldredge, who applied Karl Marx's idea of history, and came up with 'Punctuated Equilibrium,' which posited that, yes....species can appear suddenly: "Sudden appearance.In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed.'"
6.5 Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge


And, just to rub it in, Gould, atheist, Marxist, neo-Darwinist, is a witness for the prosecution....me....as he stated that Darwin was wrong:


In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and ‘fully formed.’” (Gould, Stephen J. The Panda’s Thumb, 1980, p. 181-182.).'" (Gould, Stephen J.The Panda's Thumb, 1980, p. 181-182)




In fact, the fossil record does not demonstrate a sequence of transitional fossilsfor any species. As Newsweek reporter Jerry Adler accurately noted:

"In the fossil record, missing links are the rule: the story of life is as disjointed as a silent newsreel, in which species succeed one another as abruptly as Balkan prime ministers. The more scientists have searched for the transitional forms between species, the more they have been frustrated....

Evidence from fossils now points overwhelmingly away from the classical Darwinism which most Americans learned in high school: that new species evolve out of existing ones by the gradual accumulation of small changes, each of which helps the organism survive and compete in the environment." (Newsweek, 1980, 96[18]:95).


Exactly as I posted throughout.

Exactly.


Let’s address of another of your forgeries, shall we?

You’re really on a roll. You’re forged cut and paste “quotes” are all familiar as I've called you out earlier for your dishonesty.

Quote Mine Project: Gould, Eldredge and Punctuated Equilibria Quotes

Quote #3.5

[There are no fossils showing transitions between species]

In the fossil record, missing links are the rule: the story of life is as disjointed as a silent newsreel, in which species succeed one another as abruptly as Balkan prime ministers. The more scientists have searched for the transitional forms between species, the more they have been frustrated.... Evidence from fossils now points overwhelmingly away from the classical Darwinism which most Americans learned in high school: that new species evolve out of existing ones by the gradual accumulation of small changes, each of which helps the organism survive and compete in the environment - Jerry Adler - Newsweek (1980, 96[18]:95).

Representative quote miners: Evolution Cruncher: No Transitions -- Only Gaps and Reason & Revelation: 15 Answers to John Rennie andScientific American’s Nonsense

For the complete article, see talk.origins post [email protected].

The only "surprise" here is that creationists have so little shame.

Once again, this is an article about the (then relatively new) proposal by Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge of Punctuated Equilibria. It was apparently so new to these magazine writers that they (perhaps abetted by some of Gould's and Eldredge's scientific opponents) confused it with Richard Goldschmidt's "hopeful monsters" ideas, even though they note:

The paleontologists who have been in the forefront of the new theory don't necessarily believe in hopeful monsters. When they say that new species evolved rapidly, they are speaking in geologic terms. A single generation or 50,000 years is all the same to them. Either would be too short an interval for the intermediate organisms to appear in the fossil record.

In short, the article is nothing more than a report on the early arguments about Punctuated Equilibria. And the quote mine is just a snippet of the magazine writers' (not very clear) description of Gould and Eldredge's position, not a quote from any scientist.

In any case, the quote miners strangely fail to include the following:

While the scientists have been refining the theory of evolution in the past decade, some nonscientists have been spreading anew the gospel of creationism -- and the coincidence has confused many laymen . . . Having opposed Darwin for 120 years, fundamentalists tend to seize on any criticism of his theories as vindication . . . But the new theories are intended to explain how evolution came about -- not to supplant it as a principle. Says Harvard's Stephen Jay Gould, . . . "Evolution is a fact, like apples falling out of trees."

The irony of the miner's use of this article in the face of the above is obvious and demonstrates more about the miners' honesty than it does anything about evolution.

- J. (catshark) Pieret
 
Apparently Hollie is arguing morals are only based upon science. That there is nothing special about humans. That humans are just like every other species of animals. That there is no right or wrong. That it is perfectly acceptable to steal and murder and rape. Are wolves immoral for eating sheep?
 
Liberals stand for the very same things that Marx did.

And Bernie Sanders is proof.
Marx believed workers should not be powerless and exploited. If that is what you refer to then you might well be right.
Why not? You don’t believe in universal decency, do you?

What’s wrong with exploiting workers? Wolves eat deer. Is the wolf immoral for eating the deer?
Please tell me you're kidding. Right?
 
You are really sick.
I'm sorry if reality does not conform to your ideology.


My 'ideology' is based on truth and knowledge.

And, yes....you should be sorry.
Ideology is NEVER based on truth and knowledge, it is based on values. Claiming truth and knowledge is a dishonest distortion, like a lot of your claims.
According to you there is no such thing as truth. Truth can be anything you want it to be.
 
Liberals stand for the very same things that Marx did.

And Bernie Sanders is proof.
Marx believed workers should not be powerless and exploited. If that is what you refer to then you might well be right.
Why not? You don’t believe in universal decency, do you?

What’s wrong with exploiting workers? Wolves eat deer. Is the wolf immoral for eating the deer?
Please tell me you're kidding. Right?
You literally have no reason to believe in morals. None whatsoever. That is your logical conclusion.

We are just animals evolving, right? What do I owe you?
 
Liberals stand for the very same things that Marx did.

And Bernie Sanders is proof.
Marx believed workers should not be powerless and exploited. If that is what you refer to then you might well be right.
Why not? You don’t believe in universal decency, do you?

What’s wrong with exploiting workers? Wolves eat deer. Is the wolf immoral for eating the deer?
Please tell me you're kidding. Right?
You literally have no reason to believe in morals. None whatsoever. That is your logical conclusion.

We are just animals evolving, right? What do I owe you?
No that is your logical conclusion. I consider myself very moral, I just don't get my morals from the Bible. And neither do you.
 
To an atheist there is no such thing as morality or evil. The only thing they recognize is pleasure and pain.
You should get out of your basement and meet some atheists since you describe none I've ever met.
Do you even logic? To you there is no such thing as morality or right and wrong. To you those are human constructs. To you there is only pleasure and pain.
 
Liberals stand for the very same things that Marx did.

And Bernie Sanders is proof.
Marx believed workers should not be powerless and exploited. If that is what you refer to then you might well be right.
Why not? You don’t believe in universal decency, do you?

What’s wrong with exploiting workers? Wolves eat deer. Is the wolf immoral for eating the deer?
Please tell me you're kidding. Right?
You literally have no reason to believe in morals. None whatsoever. That is your logical conclusion.

We are just animals evolving, right? What do I owe you?
No that is your logical conclusion. I consider myself very moral, I just don't get my morals from the Bible. And neither do you.
To you morals can be anything you want them to be.
 
Do you even logic? To you there is no such thing as morality or right and wrong. To you those are human constructs. To you there is only pleasure and pain.
I do believe there is right and wrong and yes, they are human constructs.
 
Do you even logic? To you there is no such thing as morality or right and wrong. To you those are human constructs. To you there is only pleasure and pain.
I do believe there is right and wrong and yes, they are human constructs.
Which means they can be anything any human wants them to be. So if some guy robs and kills you for his own good he would be morally justified as the wolf who eats the sheep and you can’t say jack shit about it.
 
You are really sick.
I'm sorry if reality does not conform to your ideology.


My 'ideology' is based on truth and knowledge.

And, yes....you should be sorry.
Ideology is NEVER based on truth and knowledge, it is based on values. Claiming truth and knowledge is a dishonest distortion, like a lot of your claims.

I can agree with that. I would also suggest that ideology is designed to cohere large groups of people around a central “ideological” theme. That begs the question then, “why does an ideology need to instill the fear of burning flesh and eternal torment in children”?

Let me pose a question addressing the bigger picture. Of course, fear is a powerful motivator and the instillation of fear certainly exists in the belief system of the proffered Judeo-Christian ideology. Yes, it is unreasonable. It requires one to abdicate reason in the face of fear. Any gods which reward fear over reason are not worthy of worship.
 
Which means they can be anything any human wants them to be. So if some guy robs and kills you for his own good he would be morally justified as the wolf who eats the sheep and you can’t say jack shit about it.
You're right, once he kills me I can’t say jack shit about it. Until then I'd have a lot to say about it.
 
Which means they can be anything any human wants them to be. So if some guy robs and kills you for his own good he would be morally justified as the wolf who eats the sheep and you can’t say jack shit about it.
You're right, once he kills me I can’t say jack shit about it. Until then I'd have a lot to say about it.
Not about the morality of his actions. He’s just a wolf eating a sheep.

You can’t have it both ways.
 
You are really sick.
I'm sorry if reality does not conform to your ideology.


My 'ideology' is based on truth and knowledge.

And, yes....you should be sorry.
Ideology is NEVER based on truth and knowledge, it is based on values. Claiming truth and knowledge is a dishonest distortion, like a lot of your claims.

I can agree with that. I would also suggest that ideology is designed to cohere large groups of people around a central “ideological” theme. That begs the question then, “why does an ideology need to instill the fear of burning flesh and eternal torment in children”?

Let me pose a question addressing the bigger picture. Of course, fear is a powerful motivator and the instillation of fear certainly exists in the belief system of the proffered Judeo-Christian ideology. Yes, it is unreasonable. It requires one to abdicate reason in the face of fear. Any gods which reward fear over reason are not worthy of worship.
Fear is a natural part of life and death is a biggie. What happens to us after we die? Why are we here at all? Religions generally provide answers and often comfort. Like any part of humanity, it can be positive or negative and there are practitioners of each in every religion I know of.
 
Which means they can be anything any human wants them to be. So if some guy robs and kills you for his own good he would be morally justified as the wolf who eats the sheep and you can’t say jack shit about it.
You're right, once he kills me I can’t say jack shit about it. Until then I'd have a lot to say about it.
Not about the morality of his actions. He’s just a wolf eating a sheep.

You can’t have it both ways.
The wolf and sheep have very different views of how they are treated. You may think you are morally justified in killing me but I think I'm morally justified in defending myself. There is no single morality, it is transactional.
 

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