The Atomic bombs

[RetiredGySgt]

I'm providing a different view. Its extremely easy to justify massacreing civilians when its the other side you are killing.



I'm so arrogant that I know everything, but yet I never say anything conclusive, right RGS? I don't make conclusive statements because I am well aware of my own ignorance. Should we have dropped them? I don't know. I do, however, recognize the danger in saying we definitely should have dropped them, or saying the choice was obvious. The decision to kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians should never be obvious, nor should we forget that we cannot know what would have happened in an alternate reality. You can guess, but as we well know predictions about the future are often inaccurate.

I am also pointing out the tendency of most people, and you are no exception, to justify atrocities against the enemy while pointing out ones that are committed against ones own side. Think of the damage 9/11 did to this country. Now imagine 50 9/11s...not a pleasant thought. Ah, but when its against another country...in the guise of "war is war" and anything to win...well then it seems much more acceptable, eh?

Ask yourself this. Would you have been willing to nuke Miami and Dallas to end the war and save all of those lives? If not, why not?

Except for the whole documented proof we have from the Japanese side that without the Bombs the war would NOT have ended any time soon. And even WITH the bombs the ARmy tried to continue to fight and refused to surrender even after their "God" the Emperor ordered it.

As to estimates we have the DOCUMENTED results of what happened on Saipan and Okinawa with the Japanese civilian population and we have the full war time experience of what happened with the Japanese military. Hardly uneducated guesses as to the results of an invasion.

Remind me again why a guess in Science is good but a guess in war is bad? Both based on substantial information and very educated guesses?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Remind me again why a guess in Science is good but a guess in war is bad? Both based on substantial information and very educated guesses?

Especially given that in war, the 'guesses' and 'estimates' are all -- and that's ALL - made with incomplete information.

 

[doniston]

There is no such thing as a false question - you're simply trying to avoid answering the questions I asked. Why do you do that?

However "unnecessary" -you- find the raid on Hirosima to have been, the fact remains that people whine and cry and moan about the nuking of Hiroshima, and ignore the fact that the incendary raids on Tokyo kills as many/more people anbd destroyed more of the city.

And so, the questions I asked are perfectly legitimate.

So, either answer the questions, or don't bother responding.

It is hard not to conclude that you are a jackass with the stupidity and intentional distraction of the questions you ask. you started out (and continue) your stupidity by suggesting that two identical pictures constitute "one is, one isn't" I didn't answer that question ----tho later you insisted that I did. (I was referring to the two other pictures portrayed in the thread.)

This thread is aboutThe Atom Bomb, not firebombs at a different time and place. and yes, it was a different time and place.

Further Jackass, I will respond when, and if, and how I choose without prompting from the likes of you. Got it?

I have answered your questions as honeswtly as possible,-- whether you like it or not.

You are trying to ride a dead horse.

 

[doniston]

And, to apply this statement to war:
If you don't go after your enemy with as much force as you can possibly muster, every time the opportunity to do so arises, you are unnecessarily extending the war -- which then only means that more people will die.

Once the bomb came to be, the ONLY viable millitary option was to drop it.

With your stupid approach, then we should also have dropped the bomb on Russia, Cuba, Iraq, etc.etc.etc.

 

[Shogun]

Quite simply, if my neighbor attacks my kids while I'm at work, and I come home later and he attacks me with a stick, I'm going to pick up the nearest weapon or close facsimilie thereof and crush his f-ing skull.

Playing to lose is for losers.

are you going to gas his family with xylon B? Are you going to burn down his house? Are you going to hunt down and kill his parents who had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT? Perhaps go ahead and take out the whole damn block with cluster bombs just to make sure of a win? How far does it HAVE to go, Gunny? Again, dropping the bomb on Japan opened the world up to the tenants of Mutually Assured Destruction. We don't have a monopoly on nukes and I'd direct you to the very problem that Einstein saw in dropping nukes on Japan. If you can rationalize keeping everything on OUR table then take a wild guess at what THEY are going to do. Playing to annihilate civilians instead of military targets is for terrorists.

 

[Shogun]

Larkinn and Shogun would prefer living under the thumb of the Japanese Imperialists, or under anyone, so long as they aren't living under American rule.

What a couple of bozos. You'd whine the loudest and piss your pants the fastest if you were ever actually faced with fascist rule....

blah blah blah blah BLAH blah blah BLAH blah...


Trust me, every time I read one of your posts I am vividly aware of what a ruling fascist would sound like.

go discover evidence, sparky. Preferably the kind you can comprehend without training wheels.

 

[M14 Shooter]

It is hard not to conclude that you are a jackass with the stupidity and intentional distraction of the questions you ask.

Wow.

You're -so- stymied by the questions, you have to resort to personal attacks. I expect that on a day-care playground, but not here.

Really -- they're simple questions. I cannot imagine why you're having so much trouble with something so simple.

Perhaps the concepts they refer to are indeed too complicated for you?
Perhaops you don't understand the questions, and how they relate to the issue of the propriety of dropping the bombs?

If you dont understand any of these things, just let me know and I'll help explain them better.

Oh, and I gotta know:

Language Guidelines:
Foul language (profanity) used in USmessageboard.com will be loosely tolerated and at the moderators discretion. Derogatory statements directed at other members as well as direct or indirect personal attacks are permitted with the stipulation that you generally look like a fool when resorting to these tactics within a serious conversation on real issues. If you're comfortable playing the fool, feel free to do so.

Are you comfortable playing the fool?

 

[roomy]

Gunny must be an alcoholic

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I am still waiting Shogun, provide evidence that we dropped the bomb for revenge, that we would have won with out dropping the bomb, that Japan was ready to surrender without the bombs, that millions would not have died if we invaded. You made the claim now back it up.

 

[Shogun]

My "opinion" is not on the block. I have on 3 occassions provided SOURCE documents that prove the Japanese were not going to surrender, that in fact after 2 bombs and a Soviet Invasion the JApanese Army was not going to surrrender, the ARMY ran the Government, their opinion is all that mattered until the others got the Emperor involved. I provided a SOURCE document where he stated for the sake of the country after the bombs he was going to intervene and order a surrender, and even then, I provided SOURCE documents that showed the Army attempted a coup to stop him.

The supposed claim that Japan wanted to surrender before we dropped the bombs consisted of ( and I showed SOURCE documents for this) what they wanted was for the Soviets to get us to stop fighting them and leave them with what they had left, no disarmament, no entry into Japan, no loss of Manchuria, no Loss of Korea or Vietnam or Singapore.

But do keep digging your hole deeper and deeper.

Come on provide us some proof the Japanese were gonna surrender. That millions would not die if we invaded, that millions would not die as we continued to fire bomb them and starve them.

Your documents cover SPECULATION AND OPINIONS ABOUT JAPAN NOT TRYING TO SURRENDER. Shit, dude.. Can you be any more obtuse about this? Dropping the bombs wasn't just a fucking American high five moment since it WAS rather controversial with quotes ALL AROUND giving a MYRIAD of opinions..

you know... like the very QUOTES i've posted that nullify your dim-witted insistence that dropping the bombs were the ONLY viable options. Again, are you calling those quotes FALSE? are you saying that I made that shit up? PLEASE tell me that you think the quotes I posted are any less relevant than your SPECULATIONS.. Please do that. You have developed a bad habit of getting all flustered and running into the net ether when I slap some evidence at you. There is a reason this shit was controversial THEN and why It is worthy of considering NOW. PRETENDING that nuking Japan was the only viable option is EXACTLY like hearing Hitler rationalize his FINAL SOLUTION. You don't fucking shrug off two goddamn cities full of civilians just because you identify with the goddamn bombers. You hate palestinians for as much pretzel logic but, hey, as long as it's a sinless America doing the killing, right?

I already posted evidence suggesting that the Japanese were going to surrender and that dropping the bomb wasn't the mitigating factor. You can read it if you want to or flop around insisting that YOUR SPECULATION is any more concrete than mine.

the world sees how you are nothing more than a tyrant from a nation that has the ability to act like a tyrant when it's necessary to feel righteous about shit like dropping a nuke. But hey, feel free to ignore the irony of your global nuclear opinions while We are still the ONLY nation to ever USE a nuke while making sure Israel doesn't ahve to play by the same rules as anyone else. It's cool... That kind of attitutde probably DOESNT make anyone else in the world eager to call our bluff!

WITH RATIONALIZED USE OF NUKES

 

[roomy]

I am still waiting Shogun, provide evidence that we dropped the bomb for revenge, that we would have won with out dropping the bomb, that Japan was ready to surrender without the bombs, that millions would not have died if we invaded. You made the claim now back it up.

How can you provide evidence of an opinion even though it is held by millions?
Don't be fucking silly, most governments aren't that stupid, there are exceptions to the rule.

I suppose he could post links to thousands who hold the same opinion as him but you would no doubt discard them as no more than personal opinions.

 

[Shogun]

With your stupid approach, then we should also have dropped the bomb on Russia, Cuba, Iraq, etc.etc.etc.

no shit... and napalm any kids the run out of a building that can be labeled a guerrilla stronghold. Taking military global policy from these guys is like taking sex ed from a sex offender.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

How can you provide evidence of an opinion even though it is held by millions?
Don't be fucking silly, most governments aren't that stupid, there are exceptions to the rule.

I suppose he could post links to thousands who hold the same opinion as him but you would no doubt discard them as no more than personal opinions.

I have already provided to this board on several occasions proof that we did not drop the bombs for revenge, that by dropping the bombs we ended the war and avoided an invasion, that the Japanese were NOT going to surrender before we dropped the bombs. If you want to claim otherwise provide some facts.

 

[roomy]

I have already provided to this board on several occasions proof that we did not drop the bombs for revenge, If you want to claim otherwise provide some facts.

You have provided proof that "that by dropping the bombs we ended the war and avoided an invasion, that the Japanese were NOT going to surrender before we dropped the bombs." you have not provided proof that it was not for revenge, now please prove it.

 

[Shogun]

I am still waiting Shogun, provide evidence that we dropped the bomb for revenge, that we would have won with out dropping the bomb, that Japan was ready to surrender without the bombs, that millions would not have died if we invaded. You made the claim now back it up.

Is this like how you were waiting for liberals to PROVE that saddam didn't hve the phantom WMDs you insisted he had? The US took revenge for Pearl Harbor by bombing Tokyo. Although, to say that AMERICA wasn't still seeking revenge, and enjoyed some, by nuking two civilian cities would be comical if it weren't so sad that believe this. Again, you post SPECULATION about weather or not Japan would ahve surrendered without the use of the bomb. Keep pretending your evidence is any more than that. It's kinda funny to see you wave your wafer thin source as if it were the last word on the subject.

 

[roomy]

War is always about revenge, it's an irrefutable fact that needs no proof.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Is this like how you were waiting for liberals to PROVE that saddam didn't hve the phantom WMDs you insisted he had? The US took revenge for Pearl Harbor by bombing Tokyo. Although, to say that AMERICA wasn't still seeking revenge, and enjoyed some, by nuking two civilian cities would be comical if it weren't so sad that believe this. Again, you post SPECULATION about weather or not Japan would ahve surrendered without the use of the bomb. Keep pretending your evidence is any more than that. It's kinda funny to see you wave your wafer thin source as if it were the last word on the subject.

In other words, while I have rock solid proof that Japan had no intent to surrender before the bombs were dropped, rock solid proof that the Emperor ordered the surrender BECAUSE of the bombs and the Soviet Invasion, you have nothing. Yep everyone CAN see who the idiot here is.

 

[roomy]

In other words, while I have rock solid proof that Japan had no intent to surrender before the bombs were dropped, rock solid proof that the Emperor ordered the surrender BECAUSE of the bombs and the Soviet Invasion, you have nothing. Yep everyone CAN see who the idiot here is.

Is hindsight proof?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Is hindsight proof?

Hindsight IS what we have as proof that Japan was not going to surrender, It is why we know that the bombs DID work. It is why we know that if the war had gone on even without an invasion the Japanese population would have suffered HUGE losses due to bombing, starvation and lack of fuel.

 

[roomy]

Hindsight IS what we have as proof that Japan was not going to surrender, It is why we know that the bombs DID work. It is why we know that if the war had gone on even without an invasion the Japanese population would have suffered HUGE losses due to bombing, starvation and lack of fuel.

But they were dropped in revenge without the benefit of hindsight.