The Abrahamic Religions

[Mr.Fitnah]

This is only one interpretation of the Quran, there are hundreds of muslims who will tell you they don't interpret it that way.

 

[Diuretic]

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The reference I can find is in the Surah The Spoils and it looks to me to be a specific exhortation following the Battle of Badr. Could it possibly be related simply to the specific struggle Mohammed and his followers were having in Arabia at that time? I can't see a generalised exhortation to Muslims to kill non-believers in that Surah. Not saying it's not there, just saying I can't discern it.

The tense is present tense not past .

Perhaps this will help to illuminate the thought process

The basic principle concerning that is the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]”

[al-Anfaal 8:39]

“Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Tawbah 9:5]

This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword).

These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim.

And Allaah is the Source of strength.

Islam Question and Answer - There is no compulsion to accept Islam

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

al-Anfaal 8:39

Okay I read it again. The translation I have is by N.J.Dawood. The Surah al-Anfaal (The Spoils) seems to change tenses but it appears to my untutored eye to be a direct revelation to the Prophet. The Surah ranges over past events in which Mohammed was involved and also seems to enter the future tense but still within the bounds of Mohammed’s current experiences In the copy I have the relevant passage is rendered thus:
Make war on them [the unbelievers] until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme.

I’m reading this as basically a set of instructions to the Prophet as to his immediate future dealings with the pagans against whom he was fighting.

al-Tawbah 9:5

My copy suggests that the commentators view this Surah as a continuation of The Spoils. It commences, uncharacteristically without the invocation to Allah so that might be a clue as to its being a continuation. Anyway it reads, “A declaration of immunity by Allah and His apostle the idolaters with whom you have made agreements..”

The exhortation is indeed for Mohammed to go after the unbelievers but again I’m reading it as being in a specific rather than a generalised context.

 

[Diuretic]

This is only one interpretation of the Quran, there are hundreds of muslims who will tell you they don't interpret it that way.

Reminds me of that graffito "Jesus is coming - look busy!"

They'd better hurry up then. We've had Muslims in Australia for hundreds and hundreds of years (north coast of Australia saw Muslim fishers and traders dealing with our indigenous people well before Europeans came here). In my city we have the oldest mosque in Australia, built in 1888 and the Muslims still haven't tried to do us in! Slackers!

 

[editec]

Given how very differently the GODS are between the old Testment, the New Testment and the Koran, I'd say there really isn't all that much similarity between these religions.

Of course the practicianers of these religions act pretty much alike.

But that's not because of their religions, that's because we are all nasty apes who like to tell people that when we're doing something inhumane to our fellow humans, we get a pass because GOD said it was okay to do it.

Don't blame GOD or religion for what people do.

People are often vile and selfish and rationalizing asshats who seek to rationalize their crimes behind theoologies or philosohies, and even based on something so silly as economic systems.

All are nothing but the rationalizations we give ourselves.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The reference I can find is in the Surah The Spoils and it looks to me to be a specific exhortation following the Battle of Badr. Could it possibly be related simply to the specific struggle Mohammed and his followers were having in Arabia at that time? I can't see a generalised exhortation to Muslims to kill non-believers in that Surah. Not saying it's not there, just saying I can't discern it.

The tense is present tense not past .

Perhaps this will help to illuminate the thought process

The basic principle concerning that is the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]”

[al-Anfaal 8:39]

“Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Tawbah 9:5]

This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword).

These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim.

And Allaah is the Source of strength.

Islam Question and Answer - There is no compulsion to accept Islam

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

al-Anfaal 8:39

Okay I read it again. The translation I have is by N.J.Dawood. The Surah al-Anfaal (The Spoils) seems to change tenses but it appears to my untutored eye to be a direct revelation to the Prophet. The Surah ranges over past events in which Mohammed was involved and also seems to enter the future tense but still within the bounds of Mohammed’s current experiences In the copy I have the relevant passage is rendered thus:
Make war on them [the unbelievers] until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme.

I’m reading this as basically a set of instructions to the Prophet as to his immediate future dealings with the pagans against whom he was fighting.

al-Tawbah 9:5

My copy suggests that the commentators view this Surah as a continuation of The Spoils. It commences, uncharacteristically without the invocation to Allah so that might be a clue as to its being a continuation. Anyway it reads, “A declaration of immunity by Allah and His apostle the idolaters with whom you have made agreements..”

The exhortation is indeed for Mohammed to go after the unbelievers but again I’m reading it as being in a specific rather than a generalised context.

From the Quran

33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.

Hadith
'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported:
Allah's Messenger said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
Display

 

[Barb]

In Mr Fitnah's thread concerning Koranic exhortations to violence (contested) it occurred to me that a good look at the three Abrahamic religions might be useful. As I said in that thread my knowledge is scant, but I'll say what I think I know and wait for more information.

As I understand it Abraham, a Hebrew, was visited by God and possibly began the first (apparently there's some thought that there were earlier ideas of monotheism but not sure) monotheistic religion based on revelations from God. That became Judaism.

Then Yeshua, who was called Jesus Christ, the Anointed One, came along as an Aramaic-speaking Jew and preached and drew followers. In His name Christianity developed from its Judaic roots.

Much later, 7th Century (?) CE, Mohammed was visited by the Archangel Gabriel who revealed the Koran to the Prophet. Allah/God was a bit annoyed that the earlier two Abrahamic religions which worshipped Him had gone off the rails a bit and the Prophet had revealed to him the Koran so that he could begin to set people right.

The point I made in Mr F's thread was that adherents of the three religions are essentially worshipping the same God. There are major doctrinal differences though. But the object of veneration is the same God.

I had a plan to do a re-write on the Bible, add a few editorial notes, give a clearer picture of Sarah (that whole, "yo, slave, go sleep with my husband...snap! I'm pregnant, get that whore and her whelp out of my sight!" thing painted in such glorious lights...), but researching satire showed me that Sam Clemens STOLE my idea before I was even born. Rat bastid!

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[Barb]

If it were the same god, the same god would have said the same thing to all three. The fact of the matter is, he did. It's called the BIBLE. Some listened some didn't.

Muslims are busy worshiping a fallen star (Satan) while some Jews are still trying to approach G-d through their own works and righteousness just as Cain did ~6000 years ago.

I hate to repeat myself, and i know i've said this before, but I think each religion is like a different language with which people speak to G-d... and he's multi-iingual.

As for the same thing being said to everyone, people impose their own idiosyncrasies on everything... including religion. to us, jesus didn't fulfill the prophesies and the messiah for us isn't a spiritual savior in the sense that christians see it.

george carlin once did a truly great bit on the 10 commandments.... said it could all be boiled down to one... do unto others as you would have them do unto you. if people actually followed that, i think the world would be a pretty good place.

Yes! We have a winner! People do impose their own idiosyncrasies, and their own limitations on the divine. Why wouldn't the "great I AM" appear and communicate in ways that would be culturally understandable? And even with such communication, why wouldn't humans, being humans, impose their own familial dysfunctions on the message? Look at Cain and Abel. Two boys set against each other for parental approval. Never comes to a good end, and why would an all powerful being set something like that up in the first place? Consider Job, the poor bastard. His life really ruined for however many years on a BET? God and the devil have a gambling problem much? Who would believe this type of maladjustment from a supreme being? Humans would. Humans (and do we have to point out they were MALE humans, before women were allowed to learn how to read? Yes, I think we do) would.

And of all the dysfunction present in the family of man, we have holy wars. What do they boil down to beyond stealth of water, land, and women? That's right people, we're killing each other (and ourselves!) over the claim that DAD LIKES ME BEST! It might just be an excuse for all the other scumbuggery that goes on behind it, but that happens to be the premise for the raping, pillaging, and stealing.

I'm more comfortable with the idea that dad likes me enough, and that moms have moved on from poisoning the threads in other women's clothing (prehistory, but there was plenty of that going on in biblical times as well) in order to advance their boy child's interests to simple talking behind each others backs to advance their own.

 

[N4mddissent]

This is only one interpretation of the Quran, there are hundreds of muslims who will tell you they don't interpret it that way.

Reminds me of that graffito "Jesus is coming - look busy!"

They'd better hurry up then. We've had Muslims in Australia for hundreds and hundreds of years (north coast of Australia saw Muslim fishers and traders dealing with our indigenous people well before Europeans came here). In my city we have the oldest mosque in Australia, built in 1888 and the Muslims still haven't tried to do us in! Slackers!

Is the kangaroo a clean or unclean animal in Muslim tradition?

 

[Diuretic]

This is only one interpretation of the Quran, there are hundreds of muslims who will tell you they don't interpret it that way.

Reminds me of that graffito "Jesus is coming - look busy!"

They'd better hurry up then. We've had Muslims in Australia for hundreds and hundreds of years (north coast of Australia saw Muslim fishers and traders dealing with our indigenous people well before Europeans came here). In my city we have the oldest mosque in Australia, built in 1888 and the Muslims still haven't tried to do us in! Slackers!

Is the kangaroo a clean or unclean animal in Muslim tradition?

Now that is a truly perceptive question!

 

[Anguille]

Yes, the differences in Christianity are interesting, but I have this feeling that that's been a good thing. I don't mean in a theological sense, I mean in a secular manner and I'm connecting that to the advancement of humanity in Christian Europe. Sometimes, theologically speaking, those changes are good, I think Luther was appalled at the corruption in the Church when he nailed his challenge to the door. The Reformation followed and I wonder if that wasn't a filip to human intellectual development.

Luther's humanity is questionable when you consider how increasingly anti-Semitic he became.

He couldn't stand kosher food either.

"A few years later, in 1528, Luther reported a nearly fatal bout of diarrhea brought on by his consumption of Kosher food. In a letter to Melancthon, Luther suggested that the Jewish community had attempted to poison him. Luther further suggested that Kosher foods, which he believed to be disagreeable with the constitution of Gentiles, were eaten by the Jews (who, presumably, would not experience adverse effects from their consumption) as a show of superiority over the Gentiles and as a means of separating themselves from the mainstream German culture. He suggested that Kosher foods be banned from Christian nations."

Martin Luther and antisemitism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That he didn't like matzo ball soup was just the tip of the iceberg.

Seriously though, he had some great ideas about religion but some very bad ideas about Jews.

 

[Kalam]

This is only one interpretation of the Quran, there are hundreds of muslims who will tell you they don't interpret it that way.

Reminds me of that graffito "Jesus is coming - look busy!"

They'd better hurry up then. We've had Muslims in Australia for hundreds and hundreds of years (north coast of Australia saw Muslim fishers and traders dealing with our indigenous people well before Europeans came here). In my city we have the oldest mosque in Australia, built in 1888 and the Muslims still haven't tried to do us in! Slackers!

Is the kangaroo a clean or unclean animal in Muslim tradition?

Kangaroo meat is halal.