The abortion debate

[We Are They]

Is it too late to abort JB?

 

[JBeukema]

Is a tumor, which is human flesh with a different genetic code from it's host body, a "human life", and thus should be protected?

Can you point to a tumor and make a factual claim that it is an organism unto itself? No, so the other necessary conditions need not even be asked. Stop asking stupid questions.

I'm not talking about intelligence, but about abstract thoughts and ideas

cats and dogs and dolphins are sentient by all but the most exclusive definitions-


answer my other questions.

Is it too late to abort JB?

You should really consider suicide

 

[We Are They]

JB, then a fetus isn't an organism all to itself either, take it out and it dies.

 

[JBeukema]

JB, then a fetus isn't an organism all to itself either, take it out and it dies.

You're a fucking moron. If I take you off of earth ad hurl you into space or hold your head underwater, you die. Go get an education and come back when you know what the fuck you're talking about.

 

[We Are They]

JB, then a fetus isn't an organism all to itself either, take it out and it dies.

You're a fucking moron. If I take you off of earth ad hurl you into space or hold your head underwater, you die. Go get an education and come back when you know what the fuck you're talking about.

Man, please try to make some sense. If you put a fetus underwater, it'll die too. What's your point?

btw, a fetus is in a symbiotic relationship with its host, it's not viable by itself. Look it up.

 

[JBeukema]

Man, please try to make some sense.

The irony!

If you put a fetus underwater, it'll die too. What's your point?

Your argument was that it is not an organism because it cannot dsurvuive outside of its host- you really are stupid

btw, a fetus is in a symbiotic relationship with its host, i

Symbiotic relationships occur between two or more organisms

You have just refuted yourself

 

[We Are They]

You were talking about protecting a fetus because it's a different organism that's a viable entity by itself. Unlike a tumor. But a fetus isn't viable by itself.

 

[JBeukema]

You were talking about protecting a fetus because it's a different organism that's a viable entity by itself.[/quoe]

1) I never spoke of 'viability'
2) I never said that living organism was sufficient conditions
3) I never asked whether a tumor can exist on its own


You are stupid, a lirr, or both. Which is it? Are you simply lying, or are you just too stupid to understand? Should we pity you for your obvious mental inferiority or or put you where you belong for choosing stupidity and ignorance? Which is it?

 

[We Are They]

Maybe if you stuck to one side and stopped arguing anything with everyone, you'd have a solid position that you weren't moving around constantly to suit any debate. Because it's changed again!

 

[JBeukema]

Maybe if you stuck to one side and stopped arguing anything with everyone, you'd have a solid position that you weren't moving around constantly to suit any debate. Because it's changed again!

I have only changed my position on this issue once in my life thus far, and that was regarding the details of my position rather than a major revision. If you weren't so stupid, you learned how to read, you mastered reading comprehension skills and learned how logic works, you would see that all of my arguments are based on a very simply position that I have made clear numerous times. Any who have been involved in a discussion regarding the matter, in which I was active, can probably sum up where I stand. Of course, my refusal to endorse either extreme of stupidity (as it is found on both sides) means that you can't find what I say in the cartoons in the Sunday paper, which is where you seem to get most of your information.

 

[We Are They]

That sure clears thing up!

 

[BrokenAngel]

As the OP of this thread, I ask that everyone remain civil and shy away from using personal attacks on one another to make your point.

The conservative point of view, if I understand this correctly, is that a fetus or a pre-fetus is a life form with the potential to become a human.

The liberal point of view is that the fetus, up until a certain time period, is not complex enough to consider human. No matter what it has the potential to become, it is not that currently and a woman should have the right to abort the pregnancy if she so chooses.

My view - first and early-mid second term abortions are acceptable. Anything beyond 22 weeks is disgusting and should be banned. If a fetus can survive outside the womb, then the fetus must be kept alive until birth unless it's a case of the mother's life. A rape victim should know pretty early on if she wants to terminate the pregnancy and I highly doubt an incest victim is going to mull it over for 22 weeks.

We kill bacteria every day. We kill incests every day. Sometimes we kill animals when we hunt. These are far more complex life forms than a fetus and many conservatives find it just fine to kill these. I do not view human life as being superior to animal life - I view it equal. For the traits and qualities and intelligence we posses, animals posses different traits and qualities superior to ours. Additionally, man relies on the animal for nourishment and clothing to be kept warm as we could not do this on our own. I find this hypocritical of conservatives.

So, that's my view on abortion. 22 weeks or less.

I am responding before reading the rest of this thread. Even though I beyond appreciate your honest invite into a meeting of the minds and a broader understanding, I have learned all too well that most seem to be ready to attack rather than open up.

Your understanding of the Conservative view is taken from a non-religious standing and for the most part is accurate. The wall I know you are going to be banging your head against is the fact that to most Christians, a fetus is a human being. The belief that your life starts the moment of conception runs deep and the thought of snuffing out a soul before it even has a chance to take a breath horrifies many.

I am of the belief that until the child is able to fend for itself it is an extension of the mother and I wouldn't refuse any woman the ability to have an abortion. For me though, that opinion will not hold in regards to my own body. I found out I was pregnant though in the winter of 07 and paniced. I found myself sitting in a clinic ready to have an abortion because I couldn't handle the idea of having a child. I spend my free time playing video games, board games, watching cartoons.. I'm still a kid myself! How could I possibly raise a child!?! The guilt that was weighing on me for trying to take the "easy way out" was so overwhelming I ran out of there in tears and straight into my boyfriend's arms. I now have a wonderful, although VERY vocal, 8 month old little boy and we just found out we are already pregnant again ( and we are both SO getting our tubes tied after the second comes lol ).

Pregnancy: Fetal Development and Growth

To better understand the Conservative view you have to look at the development of an egg into a child. Click on the above link and take a look at the development. Even though it is considered common for an abortion to be done up to 22 weeks, by only 6 weeks your baby's heart is beating. That isn't your heart but the baby's which is going at a much higher rate than the mother's. Those are the things a Conservative sees when they see a woman going in for an abortion.

For me abortion is never going to be a viable answer. I have seen it destroy many a young women. I knew a girl in high school who would sit at the park and watch children about the age that her child would have been and cry.. This topic is not as cut and dry as "can it breathe?" or "Its just cells" because abortion itself has a very lasting effect on the mother. Understand that the people who see this topic differently than you see a child being killed. Taking this approach is VERY admirable and I hope people give you some honesty and heart instead of just rage and outrage.

 

[JBeukema]

. The wall I know you are going to be banging your head against is the fact that to most Christians, a fetus is a human being.

Actually, to claim that a fetus is not a human life is to deny scienctific fact

I am of the belief that until the child is able to fend for itself it is an extension of the mother

so that's what? 10 years old? 12? 15?

 

[JW Frogen]

I think abortion as it currently stands should be legal. BUT, a life conceived is a life.

Abortion is killing.

It is just some times killing is justified for the greater good. We accept this premise in some wars, police motives, ect.

Some times we have to kill. The Pro Choice crowd renders no dignity to their being by defining life away to a point where their conscience no longer has to consider it if they should believe they have to take it.

 

[Ravi]

Actually, to claim that a fetus is not a human life is to deny scienctific fact

Science has been unable to reach on consensus on when human life begins so you are wrong.

 

[We Are They]

Americans killed hundreds of thousands in the middle east wars, Nam..., 30,000+ people die from gunshots in the US every year, nutjob mothers drown their kids, police shoot a ton, car crazies kill a bunch, the US has 50 million people without health care, children in the US are going to school hungry... So please don't tell me that all life is sacred, your hypocrisy is laughable.

 

[JW Frogen]

Americans killed hundreds of thousands in the middle east wars, Nam..., 30,000+ people die from gunshots in the US every year, nutjob mothers drown their kids, police shoot a ton, car crazies kill a bunch, the US has 50 million people without health care, children in the US are going to school hungry... So please don't tell me that all life is sacred, your hypocrisy is laughable.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Boring Noam Chomsky lite.

Tell me what war was it in the Middle East where America killed more people than her enemies intended to?

 

[JW Frogen]

Actually, to claim that a fetus is not a human life is to deny scienctific fact

Science has been unable to reach on consensus on when human life begins so you are wrong.

So what begins at conception, a Hyundai Getz?

Get real, do your own humanity some dignity.

 

[Ravi]

Actually, to claim that a fetus is not a human life is to deny scienctific fact

Science has been unable to reach on consensus on when human life begins so you are wrong.

So what begins at conception, a Hyundai Getz?

Get real, do your own humanity some dignity.

Your personal thoughts are far from scientific consensus. Fail.

 

[JW Frogen]

]Your personal thoughts are far from scientific consensus. Fail.

See, you want your killing easy.

I don't think killing should ever be easy, it may have to be, you may have to kill, but it should not be easy, ever.

So, when does life begin?

When you don't have to feel bad about killing it?