The abortion debate

[Ravi]

What debate?

If you are against abortion, don't have one.

 

[manifold]

What debate?

If you are against abortion, don't have one.

Exactly.

And if you are for abortion, have as many as you like.

 

[Ravi]

What debate?

If you are against abortion, don't have one.

Exactly.

And if you are for abortion, have as many as you like.

Exactly how I feel about tequila.

 

[code1211]

What debate?

If you are against abortion, don't have one.

Actually, I understand the pragmatic reasons for abortion within this society and as a result, reluctantly, do support abortion as a practice within the society accepting that the alternatives are unworkable. Available, safe and rare is, I think, the popular way to state my postion.

My problem is not so much with the settled law on this issue as with the bick flips that we must go through to morally justify abortions. If we are a moral society only and not pragmatic at all, then we must reject abortion. If we are a pragmatic society using morals as a compass but not as a master, then we must accept abortion.

As a society, we use regulation in the form of laws to codify our intentions and maintain our peace. Our hopes are reserved a place in our religions. Our laws deal with our interactions and the maintenance of our ongoing peace. It's difficult to codify individual hope except that it shall be left to prosper on its own.

That our laws nod to morals is a good thing inasmuch as morals are a good thing. When we confuse our laws with our morals, we tread on dangerous ground.

 

[manifold]

My problem is not so much with the settled law on this issue as with the back flips that we must go through to morally justify abortions. If we are a moral society only and not pragmatic at all, then we must reject abortion. If we are a pragmatic society using morals as a compass but not as a master, then we must accept abortion.

I couldn't have said that any better myself. And believe me, I've tried.

 

[JBeukema]

First trimester, plenty of time to make a choice on whether or not to terminate something that has no chance of surviving outside the womb.

First five years, plenty of time to make a choice on whether or not to terminate something that cannot survive outside the care of some older

The argument from potential fails because the usage of contraception or even the practice of celibacy also prevents the development of a potential person

One ends human life. One deals with germ cells that are not a human life.

What is it about that life in itself that endows it with greater moral value than other nonhuman animals with a greater level of awareness and capacity to suffer?

That need not even be argued. It is hardwired into human programming and instinct.

Once born, a baby's life matters to others, and killing a healthy baby will cause its parents and other family to suffer.

Once formed, a baby's life matters to others, and killing an unborn child will cause its father and other family to suffer.

Moreover, a baby can be adopted by others while a nonviable fetus cannot, so there is no utility maximization provided through the killing of a baby.

So any child for which an adoptive home vcannot be found may be slaughtered, yes?

That's because extrinsic moral value as applied from a detached person is subordinate to the pregnant woman's own preferences and interests.

Only women have the ability to care for another living thing?

But it operates on the premise that there's some intrinsic moral value in human life merely by virtue of its membership in the species homo sapiens.

That is a fact of human programing. Humanity is the widest in-group all humans (save for the defective ones) are naturally pre-programmed to hold as having intrinsic value.

I'm challenging that premise

So killing any human being is never wrong, since they have no intrinsic value? What if I kill someone who has no friends or simply kill someone and hide the bodty? Since noone knows there dead, I've caused no suffering- no extrensic values are destroyed. Your argument means that murder is never wrong unless you get caught.

Let me see if I got this straight, a guy who's job it was to kill others (Retired Gay Sgt) is arguing that an embryo, which btw isn't a "human life" yet, is worthy of protection? LOL, pretty funny, dude.

1) stop trolling
2) Learn biology

So if a woman is under a lot of stress in her life and the stress causes a miscarriage, should she be arrested for murder?

Do we usually charge people with murder in cases of accidental death, or is the aboe a really stupid question?

If God was indeed so intricately involved with our lives, don't you think he'd be focused on more important issues such as war, poverty, infadelity, murder of living, adult human beings, etc.?

wtf do fairy tales have to do with anything?

 

[JBeukema]

As the OP of this thread, I ask that everyone remain civil and shy away from using personal attacks on one another to make your point.

The conservative point of view, if I understand this correctly, is that a fetus or a pre-fetus is a life form with the potential to become a human.

not quite. That's how the Left tries to portray the Right's position. If you read that carefully, you see the loaded language used to poison the well.

My view - first and early-mid second term abortions are acceptable

.
Why?

Why and how is it disgusting? Is the repulsion you feel the sole factor in your decision?


Why?





Define 'complex' and by what reason you equate the life of a microbe to human life when it suits your purpose, but not when the comparison ceases to suit your agenda- that is, if bacterial lifeforms are equal to our own as you imply, then homicide should never be a crime if it is okay to kill a microbe.



I assume you are a vegan who refuses to eat food grown on any farm that keeps animals, including but not limited to beasts of burden? I assume you have no pets and you support feline and ovine suffrage?


Demonstrate that this is true and that it means we should regard them as outr equals

That's simply not true. Clothes can be made from plants, and small personal/family gardens can be tended by hand to sustain us. If anything, the above supports the argument that animals are simply an animal resource we must and should use as needed.

I find this hypocritical of conservatives.

Your post is full of ideological inconsistencies that lead me to conclude there are two possibilities:
1) You're an idiot
2) You're an idiot trying to be a smartass

So, that's my view on abortion. 22 weeks or less.

Which you have yet to defend

Still no attempt at answers or defense of your position?

 

[Freedomlover]

Scientists would go ga-ga over the discovery of a single cell life form on Mars, and trumpet that "there is life there"! If a single cell is classified as "life" why is two or more living cells in a woman's uterus destined to become a human being so non-chalantly discarded?

 

[Article 15]

First trimester, plenty of time to make a choice on whether or not to terminate something that has no chance of surviving outside the womb.

First five years, plenty of time to make a choice on whether or not to terminate something that cannot survive outside the care of some older

My position was stated ... it's firm and unbending. Taking what I said, dishonestly twisting it and using hyperbole it in an effort to prove some kind of point rings on deaf ears, my friend.

 

[manifold]

Scientists would go ga-ga over the discovery of a single cell life form on Mars, and trumpet that "there is life there"! If a single cell is classified as "life" why is two or more living cells in a woman's uterus destined to become a human being so non-chalantly discarded?

Because discovering life on Mars would be something new.

Living cells in a chick's hoo-haa is nothing new.

In short, this is a pretty silly analogy.

 

[JBeukema]

You have yet to defend anything you said, despite it being shown to be fallacious bullshit. Either defend your position or STFU and never make or comment in another thread on the natter again.

 

[Hawk]

Abortion is not a choice,but it is a murder of the first degree.God gave us no rights to take away innocent human life.

 

[renoite]

I dont agree with this as women i think its worng.... what did the baby ever do to be killed rather its 22 weeks or not or if its a baby yet or not...... ask yourself why am i killing my baby what did this baby ever do.... you chose this baybies fate... one less baby to say i love mom and dad one less to say im sorry for making a mess one less to cuddle with one less smile that baby will give because you as a woman choose to kill your baby... I think if your woman enough to lay down in your bed and have sex then your woman enough to give brith to a baby.. if you didnt want the baby give her or him up to a family that cant have children... been rape my ?? still is what did that baby do... if you dont want that baby give them up to family that can show that little thing some love.......... if the mother is going to die because of it my choice would be die because of my love for that baby I would die to save that little ones life... what would you do what do you think is right.... I know whats right and whats right is not killing a inncoent baby

 

[Article 15]

You have yet to defend anything you said, despite it being shown to be fallacious bullshit. Either defend your position or STFU and never make or comment in another thread on the natter again.

I that I heard y'all barking and that I don't care ... what part of firm and unbending don't you understand?

Your dishonest effort to twist, bend, and stretch words isn't an "argument" that I feel I should have to defend. What you said amounts to a wise ass remark.

And who are you to tell me where and when I can post?

 

[JBeukema]

Abortion is not a choice,but it is a murder of the first degree.

'Murder in the first degree' is legal parlance. As of this post, your calims are not truthful or accurate.

Abortion is homicide. Homicide and murder are not equivalent terms. Educate yourself before posting again

 

[JBeukema]

So, Article- you ignore any questions and instead bitch about posts you don't like? Ever since page one I've told you to back up your shit. Either grow a brain and some balls and defend your assertions or STFU and stop whining like a bitch when someone calls you out.

 

[manifold]

JBitchema accusing someone else of whining like a bitch! Oh the sweet glorious irony!

What's next, Shogun admonishing someone for using naughty language?

 

[Article 15]

So, Article- you ignore any questions and instead bitch about posts you don't like? Ever since page one I've told you to back up your shit. Either grow a brain and some balls and defend your assertions or STFU and stop whining like a bitch when someone calls you out.

lol ...

Awww ... you don't like it when someone refuses to play your game?

Let's see ... you didn't respond to my post until page 3 so starting off with a lie isn't going to get you very far with me.

Secondly, I stated my position, why I hold it, and that I didn't give a fig what anybody else had to say about it. What you are saying is pretty much a bunch of

You can go pound sand as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Hawk]

Abortion is not a choice,but it is a murder of the first degree.

'Murder in the first degree' is legal parlance. As of this post, your calims are not truthful or accurate.

Abortion is homicide. Homicide and murder are not equivalent terms. Educate yourself before posting again

Abortion is a crime.It is a bloody agenda of radical feminist movement of NOW,a Marxist based organization.Who gave rights to women to murder their children?If a woman is pregnant and she doesn't want her child,she must to turn her infant to orphanage from which the child will be adopted to good caring hands.But murdering a pre-born child by this bloody abortion is her way to Hell.It is a time for America to reconsider unconstitutional Supreme Court case Roe vs Wade of 1973.

 

[007]

Abortion is not a choice,but it is a murder of the first degree.

'Murder in the first degree' is legal parlance. As of this post, your calims are not truthful or accurate.

Abortion is homicide. Homicide and murder are not equivalent terms. Educate yourself before posting again

Are you a lawyer? As far as I know, If I kill my neighbor it's murder. So if you kill an unborn child, it's also murder. Why the fuck you gotta play word games with a new member? Gettin' a kick out of it, or because you just want to give a pro lifer some shit?