The 47% Strawman

[Quantum Windbag]

So whats stopping you from returning the excess above and beyond what you paid in?

If Warren Buffet won't voluntarily pay more why should TT give back what the law entitles him to?

But isn't that the same tired story you guys keep using. "If you want to raise taxes, nothing is stopping you from sending in more money".

So how does that not apply in reverse to? "If you don't think people should be getting back more than they pay in, shouldn't you send it back?"

I am pretty sure you can't find a single post where Two Thumbs said that taxes should go up.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Most don't pay taxes....

You think tax write-offs are exclusive to the rich??

The only tax the 47% pay is a fucking sales tax -- And that is the only unbiased tax their is.

The 47% get big fat checks in the mail via our federal and state governments every April, May or June for a reason - They didn't make enough to be taxed..

Yet of course on the other-hand it's the rich who are taxed -- they don't get a fucking income tax return -- THEY PAY FUCKING MONEY TO THE GOVERNMENT..

Of course its the 47% that benefit from the "53%" considering their the ones PAYING THE GOVERNMENT to provide in various ways for the other 47%, weather it be via college or welfare...

Oh, BTW it is quite obvious Keynesian economics is a failure..

People argue about fairness all the time - well guess what? people should be treated equally and that means people should pay an equal percentage of tax.... The rich shouldn't be taxed higher than anyone else just because they have more wealth...

How the fuck is that equal?? one guy pays nothing and the other guy pays everything...

Not to mention I'm against excessive government spending anyways - government shouldn't be supporting people - it's not their fucking job.

If they keep their receipts they can deduct the sales taxes they pay. That means that, if you want to work at it, you can actually go through the year and not pay any taxes at all, including sales taxes.

 

[RDD_1210]

If Warren Buffet won't voluntarily pay more why should TT give back what the law entitles him to?

But isn't that the same tired story you guys keep using. "If you want to raise taxes, nothing is stopping you from sending in more money".

So how does that not apply in reverse to? "If you don't think people should be getting back more than they pay in, shouldn't you send it back?"

I am pretty sure you can't find a single post where Two Thumbs said that taxes should go up.

I'm pretty sure I can. Thanks for asking though.

 

[driveby]

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .

Yep, the 12,000 tax cheats in your messiah's administration are damn good at using loopholes......

 

[Mr.Nick]

I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Most don't pay taxes....

You think tax write-offs are exclusive to the rich??

The only tax the 47% pay is a fucking sales tax -- And that is the only unbiased tax their is.

The 47% get big fat checks in the mail via our federal and state governments every April, May or June for a reason - They didn't make enough to be taxed..

Yet of course on the other-hand it's the rich who are taxed -- they don't get a fucking income tax return -- THEY PAY FUCKING MONEY TO THE GOVERNMENT..

Of course its the 47% that benefit from the "53%" considering their the ones PAYING THE GOVERNMENT to provide in various ways for the other 47%, weather it be via college or welfare...

Oh, BTW it is quite obvious Keynesian economics is a failure..

People argue about fairness all the time - well guess what? people should be treated equally and that means people should pay an equal percentage of tax.... The rich shouldn't be taxed higher than anyone else just because they have more wealth...

How the fuck is that equal?? one guy pays nothing and the other guy pays everything...

Not to mention I'm against excessive government spending anyways - government shouldn't be supporting people - it's not their fucking job.

If they keep their receipts they can deduct the sales taxes they pay. That means that, if you want to work at it, you can actually go through the year and not pay any taxes at all, including sales taxes.

Only if you're a business, you would get challenged for such a notion on top of that if you don't have a valid tax number.

You cant even buy most corporations products to resale without a tax number..

However yes you can "write-off" small business expenses: gas, food, lodging (or any expense related to your business that is not an asset) of course even then you have depreciation of assets and such..

I have been trained in bookkeeping/accounting. My mother is a comptroller and she taught me and I cant stand even thinking about all of that...

Taxes, or even bookkeeping is way to complicated to literate here.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Most don't pay taxes....

You think tax write-offs are exclusive to the rich??

The only tax the 47% pay is a fucking sales tax -- And that is the only unbiased tax their is.

The 47% get big fat checks in the mail via our federal and state governments every April, May or June for a reason - They didn't make enough to be taxed..

Yet of course on the other-hand it's the rich who are taxed -- they don't get a fucking income tax return -- THEY PAY FUCKING MONEY TO THE GOVERNMENT..

Of course its the 47% that benefit from the "53%" considering their the ones PAYING THE GOVERNMENT to provide in various ways for the other 47%, weather it be via college or welfare...

Oh, BTW it is quite obvious Keynesian economics is a failure..

People argue about fairness all the time - well guess what? people should be treated equally and that means people should pay an equal percentage of tax.... The rich shouldn't be taxed higher than anyone else just because they have more wealth...

How the fuck is that equal?? one guy pays nothing and the other guy pays everything...

Not to mention I'm against excessive government spending anyways - government shouldn't be supporting people - it's not their fucking job.

If they keep their receipts they can deduct the sales taxes they pay. That means that, if you want to work at it, you can actually go through the year and not pay any taxes at all, including sales taxes.

Only if you're a business, you would get challenged for such a notion on top of that if you don't have a valid tax number.

You cant even buy most corporations products to resale without a tax number..

However yes you can "write-off" small business expenses: gas, food, lodging (or any expense related to your business that is not an asset) of course even then you have depreciation of assets and such..

I have been trained in bookkeeping/accounting. My mother is a comptroller and she taught me and I cant stand even thinking about all of that...

Taxes, or even bookkeeping is way to complicated to literate here.

It actually comes down to a choice between state sales tax and income tax on your personal return. Most people don't have receipts, so they deduct the income tax. If you don't pay state income tax it makes sense to deduct the sales tax. The law might have changed recently, so I won't argue if you insist it is different.

 

[kaz]

I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"

According to the IRS, 47% of filers don't pay federal taxes, dumb ass. Not everyone files, so even more then 47% don't pay federal taxes. There is no strawman about it. Your argument is the strawman because no one says they don't pay "any" taxes. Another brain dead liberal moron. If I had a nickle..

 

[NYcarbineer]

Idiotic logic.

Everyone but you knows that the 47% refers to FEDERAL INCOME TAX.

Does that include everyone who refers to those people as having NO skin in the game?

Yes... for they do have no skin in the federal income tax game...

And lest ye forget, those paying the burden of the federal income taxes ALSO pay those other taxes that the ~47% pay

And when the poor are even poorer, how exactly will that make America a better place?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Idiotic logic.

Everyone but you knows that the 47% refers to FEDERAL INCOME TAX.

Does that include everyone who refers to those people as having NO skin in the game?

Yes... for they do have no skin in the federal income tax game...

I don't recall anyone qualifying it like that.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The EXACT SAME % AS EVERY OTHER CITIZEN, ON EVERY DOLLAR OF INCOME, NO EXCEPTIONS

What number? I know already your ideas are tragically flawed by I like a good laugh so go ahead and enlighten me with a number that would work for you.

Envy of the poor in 3,2,1......

I love how you claim the poor are discriminated against - yet you advocate the rich be discriminated against...

What the FUCK is wrong with you.

Assholes like yourself don't stand for equality - you stand for your own fucked up ideas of "social justice."

You fucking retards see the world as a 1st grader would. "No fair that little Billy has more juice than I do."

Then you wonder why people call you Marxists??

The Rich try to confiscate all the wealth for themselves; the rest of us fight to hold onto some for ourselves.

That is the essence of class warfare, and always has been.

 

[RDD_1210]

Does that include everyone who refers to those people as having NO skin in the game?

Yes... for they do have no skin in the federal income tax game...

And lest ye forget, those paying the burden of the federal income taxes ALSO pay those other taxes that the ~47% pay

And when the poor are even poorer, how exactly will that make America a better place?

Don't you know that will make them work harder. Seniors and the disabled will also suddenly be able to put in 50 hours a week down at the plant. It's a brilliant plan really.

 

[IndependntLogic]

I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"

According to the IRS, 47% of filers don't pay federal taxes, dumb ass. Not everyone files, so even more then 47% don't pay federal taxes. There is no strawman about it. Your argument is the strawman because no one says they don't pay "any" taxes. Another brain dead liberal moron. If I had a nickle..

You use the word "then" when you should use "than". Then deals with time, than deals with relational values. For example, one would say "You are dumber than a rock!" and not "...even more then 47%..."

Now if English isn't your first language, I can certainly understand where this could prove confusing. So just ask if you need help again in the future. I'm a helper! It's what I do. I help.

Oh, and there are a LOT of people who state that the poor pay NO taxes because things such as sales tax etc... simply don't occur to them.

Have a nice day.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Apparently you don't get the whole LEARNING idea.

If you don't want to do a job in which you feel "exploited" then LEARN TO DO SOMETHING ELSE..

Then you wonder why you make shit for doing remedial work??

Remedial work is for remedial people..

High School kids should be scrubbing toilets and serving burgers - NOT ADULTS.

I get it, you look down upon the poor and the people doing those commoner jobs. But the fact is that someone still needs to do those jobs. The pay isn't getting better for those jobs and they still need to be done. So where does that leave us? Your ideas are still half baked and you have really no clue what the real world is like.

First off, I'm a church going and practicing Catholic and the only people I look down on are individuals who abuse their own intelligence and potential.

Not to mention if one sticks with ANY job for long enough they will go places and make money.

My Godfather is a fippin janitor and he stuck with his job for the last 25 years and he makes 40 bucks an hour.

Point being is you start out as a scrub anywhere you go, however eventually - if you're a good employee and stick with the script - you will get promoted.

Nick I certainly wish that were true - but it has stopped being applicable long ago. Ever heard the phrase "Layoffs"? When times get tough, companies will let people good - even really good people.
How about ENRON? Our neighbors in Texas worked for them their whole lives. Lost the pension, stocks, house and tragically, their insurance (She had Parkinson's).
How about Ford, GM or Chrysler? They have all closed plants and shipped jobs overseas - including people who worked there for decades.
Or is it impossible that ANY of those people laid off by all those companies was actually a good employee? Or that it was a programmer's fault that the execs at ENRON drove it under?

What you claim was once true in America. You did your best and a company would take care of you. Unfortunately, that stopped being true around the 80's or so.

 

[IndependntLogic]

I averaged my taxes when I got a reenlistment bonus while I was in the Navy. That was pretty common back when Reagan was president, even if the rules are different now. Want to try again, or do you want to throw up more logical fallacies?

Just because you have a corporation does not mean you understand taxes. The one thing I learned when I studied taxes in school was that all businessmen should have a CPA on retainer. Go talk to your CPA and ask him how to get a tax break for moving a business overseas. After he tells you that no such break exists feel free to come back here and apologize for trying to act like you know what you are talking about.

Sounds like your CPA should be apologizing to you. Or simply fired.

A look at the world's new corporate tax havens - CBS News

Is there something in that article that says you get a break on your taxes here if you move your jobs to another country? Didn't think so.

Since many people seem confused about this, I'll clarify. There are laws in our tax code which are pretty old and have unintended consequences. Basically, if a company moves a plant from say, New York to Arizona, they are allowed to accelerate depreciation on assets at the current location to 100% in that year. So if you have say, fifty million in assets and are able to deduct five million a year, moving overseas suddenly gives you a fifty million dollar deduction! This can be hugely advantageous and is definitely a "break". Pretty much everyone realizes it needs to be modified and it's only this year that politicians on both sides of the aisle have begun talking about it.
Here's another one: If you open a facility overseas, you can "offshore" profits made in the USA to those facilities. For example, Forrest Laboratories produces Lexapro only in America, it is sold only in America, all profits are realized in America (billions) and the taxes? Not a penny paid here. Zero. Why? They opened a facility in Ireland! Welcome to the "Double Irish". Like the "Dutch Sandwich" it is a scheme to use our tax code to screw our country and also our workers. You're welcome to google these phrases if you want to learn more.

And yes, when someone owns a corporation for a few years or more, they tend to know more about corporate taxes than those who don't. That's just common sense.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Sounds like your CPA should be apologizing to you. Or simply fired.

A look at the world's new corporate tax havens - CBS News

Is there something in that article that says you get a break on your taxes here if you move your jobs to another country? Didn't think so.

Since many people seem confused about this, I'll clarify. There are laws in our tax code which are pretty old and have unintended consequences. Basically, if a company moves a plant from say, New York to Arizona, they are allowed to accelerate depreciation on assets at the current location to 100% in that year. So if you have say, fifty million in assets and are able to deduct five million a year, moving overseas suddenly gives you a fifty million dollar deduction! This can be hugely advantageous and is definitely a "break". Pretty much everyone realizes it needs to be modified and it's only this year that politicians on both sides of the aisle have begun talking about it.
Here's another one: If you open a facility overseas, you can "offshore" profits made in the USA to those facilities. For example, Forrest Laboratories produces Lexapro only in America, it is sold only in America, all profits are realized in America (billions) and the taxes? Not a penny paid here. Zero. Why? They opened a facility in Ireland! Welcome to the "Double Irish". Like the "Dutch Sandwich" it is a scheme to use our tax code to screw our country and also our workers. You're welcome to google these phrases if you want to learn more.

And yes, when someone owns a corporation for a few years or more, they tend to know more about corporate taxes than those who don't. That's just common sense.

Let me see if I get you. The tax code allows you to fully deduct equipment that cannot be moved and is no longer in use, and you want to argue that this is the equivalent of a tax break for moving jobs overseas. Does that sum up your position?

 

[Chris]

The people who don't pay taxes are old people on Social Security, the disabled, and working people with families who work for close to minimum wage.

The Republican Blame the Poor campaign continues....

Because the poor have SO much influence in Washington.

 

[chanel]

The "poor" vote for the guys who offer them the most free shit. Every time. That's their "influence". Can't say I blame them.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Actually you brought up a red herring (or outright dishonest statement), because that 47% is tossed at people who don't pay income taxes. Every time I hear that number tossed out it's said like, "47% of Americans don't pay income taxes."

The number is a strawman, because the 47% includes the 22% of ALL Americans that are on social security or retirement benefits. Neither pay income taxes (nor should they), but all of them will fall in the 47%! If you take the SS/Retirees out of the 47%, then I say it's closer to 25%!

Are Your Social Security Benefits Taxable?

Generally, if Social Security benefits were your only income for 2010, your benefits are not taxable and you probably do not need to file a federal income tax return.

If people on SS don't have to file a return then obviously the 47% number does not include them.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The people who don't pay taxes are old people on Social Security, the disabled, and working people with families who work for close to minimum wage.

The Republican Blame the Poor campaign continues....

Because the poor have SO much influence in Washington.

Stating a fact is not casting blame.

It is a fact that 47% or more pay no federal income tax and some of that 47% actually receive more money back via refundable tax credits than they pay in.

Those are facts and facts are neutral.

Tell me Chris, is it your position that 47% of people in this country are "poor"?

 

[kaz]

I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"

According to the IRS, 47% of filers don't pay federal taxes, dumb ass. Not everyone files, so even more then 47% don't pay federal taxes. There is no strawman about it. Your argument is the strawman because no one says they don't pay "any" taxes. Another brain dead liberal moron. If I had a nickle..

You use the word "then" when you should use "than". Then deals with time, than deals with relational values. For example, one would say "You are dumber than a rock!" and not "...even more then 47%..."

Now if English isn't your first language, I can certainly understand where this could prove confusing. So just ask if you need help again in the future. I'm a helper! It's what I do. I help.

Oh, and there are a LOT of people who state that the poor pay NO taxes because things such as sales tax etc... simply don't occur to them.

Have a nice day.

Spell checking the Internet? It'd be quite an accomplishment to note on your resume. How far have you gotten? And the relevance of people paying STATE sales taxes when we're discussing Federal income is irrelevant. You know that, you're just a dick. I'd say you're playing dumb, but you're not playing.