The 47% Strawman

IndependntLogic

Senior Member
Jul 14, 2011
2,997
399
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I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."
 
I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.

Sigh. Why are you using a strawman to attack a strawman? The actual statistic is that 47% of workers do not pay federal income taxes.

1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.

None of which are federal, just saying.

2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.

No I do not. They pay the exact same rate I do, on the amount I earn. When they go above a certain income they pay less on anything above that.

By the way, nobody anywhere gets tax breaks for shipping jobs overseas. If you are actually a businessman, something which I sincerely doubt given your complete inabilty to actually articulate how taxes work, you would know that what actually happens is that businesses get taxed for keeping jobs in the US. The ones that can afford to move their production then move it overseas to avoid the local taxes.

That actually makes two false statments in a post where you are arguing against strawmen. Most people would call that ironic, but I actually know what ironic means.

3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

I deferred my income once to avoid taxes, and I was making far less than a million dollars. That was a few years ago, and I understand the process is more complicated now, but you can still do it if you get a large raise.

By the way, being smart and rich doesn't help. It turns out that Romney, who has teams of lawyers and accountants, actually overpaid his taxes by $44,000 last year. If the tax code is actually biased to help rich people how did he end up paying more than he needed to?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/27/b...taxes-than-he-owed-high-low-finance.html?_r=1

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Considering how little you actually know about taxes I feel pretty safe ignoring your predictions of doom.
 
I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.

Sigh. Why are you using a strawman to attack a strawman? The actual statistic is that 47% of workers do not pay federal income taxes.

1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.

None of which are federal, just saying.



No I do not. They pay the exact same rate I do, on the amount I earn. When they go above a certain income they pay less on anything above that.

By the way, nobody anywhere gets tax breaks for shipping jobs overseas. If you are actually a businessman, something which I sincerely doubt given your complete inabilty to actually articulate how taxes work, you would know that what actually happens is that businesses get taxed for keeping jobs in the US. The ones that can afford to move their production then move it overseas to avoid the local taxes.

That actually makes two false statments in a post where you are arguing against strawmen. Most people would call that ironic, but I actually know what ironic means.

3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

I deferred my income once to avoid taxes, and I was making far less than a million dollars. That was a few years ago, and I understand the process is more complicated now, but you can still do it if you get a large raise.

By the way, being smart and rich doesn't help. It turns out that Romney, who has teams of lawyers and accountants, actually overpaid his taxes by $44,000 last year. If the tax code is actually biased to help rich people how did he end up paying more than he needed to?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/27/b...taxes-than-he-owed-high-low-finance.html?_r=1

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Considering how little you actually know about taxes I feel pretty safe ignoring your predictions of doom.

Ah it's you. Cowards hide behind the anonymity of the net and claim they deferred taxes etc... Real people don't have to. Google my name and I'm the first three entries. Look at my profiel and waddya know, our corporate website! Your turn. What? You can't? You're just SO important that the Rockafellers would be upset if you did?
You may now continue being full of crap. Not that that is surprising.
Oh, and you deferred NINETY PERCENT of your income? yeah okay... Oh wait. You couldn't do THAT could you? Seems the law is designed specifically to be advantageous to those who can defer an enormous percentage of their income doesn't it? NM. Kool-aid clouds the thinking.
 
I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.

Sigh. Why are you using a strawman to attack a strawman? The actual statistic is that 47% of workers do not pay federal income taxes.



None of which are federal, just saying.



No I do not. They pay the exact same rate I do, on the amount I earn. When they go above a certain income they pay less on anything above that.

By the way, nobody anywhere gets tax breaks for shipping jobs overseas. If you are actually a businessman, something which I sincerely doubt given your complete inabilty to actually articulate how taxes work, you would know that what actually happens is that businesses get taxed for keeping jobs in the US. The ones that can afford to move their production then move it overseas to avoid the local taxes.

That actually makes two false statments in a post where you are arguing against strawmen. Most people would call that ironic, but I actually know what ironic means.



I deferred my income once to avoid taxes, and I was making far less than a million dollars. That was a few years ago, and I understand the process is more complicated now, but you can still do it if you get a large raise.

By the way, being smart and rich doesn't help. It turns out that Romney, who has teams of lawyers and accountants, actually overpaid his taxes by $44,000 last year. If the tax code is actually biased to help rich people how did he end up paying more than he needed to?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/27/b...taxes-than-he-owed-high-low-finance.html?_r=1

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Considering how little you actually know about taxes I feel pretty safe ignoring your predictions of doom.

Ah it's you. Cowards hide behind the anonymity of the net and claim they deferred taxes etc... Real people don't have to. Google my name and I'm the first three entries. Look at my profiel and waddya know, our corporate website! Your turn. What? You can't? You're just SO important that the Rockafellers would be upset if you did?
You may now continue being full of crap. Not that that is surprising.
Oh, and you deferred NINETY PERCENT of your income? yeah okay... Oh wait. You couldn't do THAT could you? Seems the law is designed specifically to be advantageous to those who can defer an enormous percentage of their income doesn't it? NM. Kool-aid clouds the thinking.

I averaged my taxes when I got a reenlistment bonus while I was in the Navy. That was pretty common back when Reagan was president, even if the rules are different now. Want to try again, or do you want to throw up more logical fallacies?

Just because you have a corporation does not mean you understand taxes. The one thing I learned when I studied taxes in school was that all businessmen should have a CPA on retainer. Go talk to your CPA and ask him how to get a tax break for moving a business overseas. After he tells you that no such break exists feel free to come back here and apologize for trying to act like you know what you are talking about.
 
Sigh. Why are you using a strawman to attack a strawman? The actual statistic is that 47% of workers do not pay federal income taxes.



None of which are federal, just saying.



No I do not. They pay the exact same rate I do, on the amount I earn. When they go above a certain income they pay less on anything above that.

By the way, nobody anywhere gets tax breaks for shipping jobs overseas. If you are actually a businessman, something which I sincerely doubt given your complete inabilty to actually articulate how taxes work, you would know that what actually happens is that businesses get taxed for keeping jobs in the US. The ones that can afford to move their production then move it overseas to avoid the local taxes.

That actually makes two false statments in a post where you are arguing against strawmen. Most people would call that ironic, but I actually know what ironic means.



I deferred my income once to avoid taxes, and I was making far less than a million dollars. That was a few years ago, and I understand the process is more complicated now, but you can still do it if you get a large raise.

By the way, being smart and rich doesn't help. It turns out that Romney, who has teams of lawyers and accountants, actually overpaid his taxes by $44,000 last year. If the tax code is actually biased to help rich people how did he end up paying more than he needed to?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/27/b...taxes-than-he-owed-high-low-finance.html?_r=1



Considering how little you actually know about taxes I feel pretty safe ignoring your predictions of doom.

Ah it's you. Cowards hide behind the anonymity of the net and claim they deferred taxes etc... Real people don't have to. Google my name and I'm the first three entries. Look at my profiel and waddya know, our corporate website! Your turn. What? You can't? You're just SO important that the Rockafellers would be upset if you did?
You may now continue being full of crap. Not that that is surprising.
Oh, and you deferred NINETY PERCENT of your income? yeah okay... Oh wait. You couldn't do THAT could you? Seems the law is designed specifically to be advantageous to those who can defer an enormous percentage of their income doesn't it? NM. Kool-aid clouds the thinking.

I averaged my taxes when I got a reenlistment bonus while I was in the Navy. That was pretty common back when Reagan was president, even if the rules are different now. Want to try again, or do you want to throw up more logical fallacies?

Just because you have a corporation does not mean you understand taxes. The one thing I learned when I studied taxes in school was that all businessmen should have a CPA on retainer. Go talk to your CPA and ask him how to get a tax break for moving a business overseas. After he tells you that no such break exists feel free to come back here and apologize for trying to act like you know what you are talking about.

Sounds like your CPA should be apologizing to you. Or simply fired.

A look at the world's new corporate tax havens - CBS News
 
Pretty much everybody pays taxes even if they don't pay Federal income taxes.

About 15% of my gross income goes to real estate taxes, sales taxes, and or fees that in many places many people pay as local RE taxes (in my case that's water, sewage, garbage removal fees too). I also pay federal taxes on gas and heating fuel, on my computer connection, on my phone, too.

The cost of FEDERAL government is mostly paid by those with higher than average incomes, that is true.

But the costs of all other governments (local and state) are largely (and more than fairly borne, too) by the rest of the population.
 
I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Don't worry independent. Obama only wants to eliminate the mortgage interest deduction for the "evil rich". :cuckoo:

President Barack Obama has proposed to limit the deduction for home-mortgage interest as part of a proposal to limit several popular deductions for families with more than $250,000 in yearly taxable income and individuals with more than $200,000.

Want To Save $215 Billion? Eliminate the Mortgage Deduction - Developments - WSJ

Punish the rich. Destroy the housing market. Cripple the banks. It's all part of the program. :evil:
 
Why instead of "guessing" USE the internet and find the following TAX LOOPHOLES used to reduce the tax payments!

In 2008 - these are the specific deductions
1) $131 billion - Exclusion of employer medical insurance premiums and medical care
2) $117 billion - Net exclusion of pension contributions and earnings
3) $88 - Mortgage interest on owner-occupied homes
4) $55 - Accelerated depreciation of machinery and equipment
5) $49 - Deductibility of non business state and local taxes
6) $46 - Deductibility of charitable contributions
7) $31 - Deferral of income from controlled foreign corporations
8) $30 - Capital gains exclusion on home sales
9) $29 - Deductibility of State and local property tax on owner-occupied homes
10) $28 - Child credit
11) $24 - Capital gains (except agriculture,timber, and coal)
12) $21 - Step-up basis of capital gains at death

What are the largest tax expenditures?


OBAMA took less the 14% of his $1.7 million taxable income in donations! LOOP HOLE!
OBAMA has written off an average of $100,000 a YEAR EACH YEAR for NOL! LOOP HOLE!

NOW you Obama.."tax the millionaires,billionaires???
AGAIN go to the FACTS from the IRS and see what people pay in Federal TAXES!

SOI Tax Stats - Individual Statistical Tables by Size of Adjusted Gross Income

You will if YOU TAKE THE TIME AS I have that:
THOSE FILTHY EVIL people that stole $5 million to $10 million or more a year???
those 14,236 people PAID 29.1% of their INCOME in taxes!!!

THESE filthy evil people PAID THE LARGEST percentage of taxable income of the 140 million returns!
 
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I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Funny how only the libs thanked you but failed to realize you're not siding with them.
 
Pretty much everybody pays taxes even if they don't pay Federal income taxes.

About 15% of my gross income goes to real estate taxes, sales taxes, and or fees that in many places many people pay as local RE taxes (in my case that's water, sewage, garbage removal fees too). I also pay federal taxes on gas and heating fuel, on my computer connection, on my phone, too.

The cost of FEDERAL government is mostly paid by those with higher than average incomes, that is true.

But the costs of all other governments (local and state) are largely (and more than fairly borne, too) by the rest of the population.

If you own property you pay through the nose in taxes.

I have to come up with $25,000 every year to pay my taxes. My folks lost their home because they couldn't pay their's.

When I hear this Bull Shit about Romney not paying enough taxes I know it's total crapola.
 
Yea and YOUR property taxes WILL go up again DUE TO OBAMACARE!
Obama HATES businesses and Obamacare TARGETS Private health insurance companies to force them out of business.
As a result over $100 billion a year in Federal, State, Local income taxes AND local property taxes will be destroyed!

And to say Obamacare is NOT ant-business here are OBAMA's EXACT WORDS HE SAID!!!
"I happen to be a proponent of a single payer universal health care program.”
Barack Obama on single payer in 2003 | Physicians for a National Health Program
 
I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Funny how only the libs thanked you but failed to realize you're not siding with them.


Or maybe you are not the person who can tell liberals what they really believe?

Maybe you've been so loaded up with hateful nonsense that you've been fighting straw men this whole time?

Nah! that's too much for you to process, isn't it?

That doesn't make you feel all warm and comfey about you POV, does it?
 
I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

splitting hairs

Everyone pays sales tax and everyone knows that.

When it comes to income tax, not only will I get it all back, I will, again, get more than I paid.

Not a poll
not an opinion
not fuzzy math

fact, I and many others will get all of it back and then some.

Now tell me; What have I done to earn your money?
 
I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Don't worry independent. Obama only wants to eliminate the mortgage interest deduction for the "evil rich". :cuckoo:

President Barack Obama has proposed to limit the deduction for home-mortgage interest as part of a proposal to limit several popular deductions for families with more than $250,000 in yearly taxable income and individuals with more than $200,000.

Want To Save $215 Billion? Eliminate the Mortgage Deduction - Developments - WSJ

Punish the rich. Destroy the housing market. Cripple the banks. It's all part of the program. :evil:

Question for you: How would you save 215 billion without as you say punishing anyone?
 
I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Idiotic logic.

Everyone but you knows that the 47% refers to FEDERAL INCOME TAX.
 
I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Idiotic logic.

Everyone but you knows that the 47% refers to FEDERAL INCOME TAX.

Indeed...

More diversion tactics by an uber-lefty
 
I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Idiotic logic.

Everyone but you knows that the 47% refers to FEDERAL INCOME TAX.

And yet if one was to do a search I would bet that 9 out of 10 posts on it fail to make that distinction.

"Sigh".....But I guess not making that distinction makes for a better sound bite.
 
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I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.

Sigh. Why are you using a strawman to attack a strawman? The actual statistic is that 47% of workers do not pay federal income taxes.

1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.

None of which are federal, just saying.

Wrong. Excise tax on fuel, local fees related to the ADA are examples

No I do not. They pay the exact same rate I do, on the amount I earn. When they go above a certain income they pay less on anything above that.

By the way, nobody anywhere gets tax breaks for shipping jobs overseas. If you are actually a businessman, something which I sincerely doubt given your complete inabilty to actually articulate how taxes work, you would know that what actually happens is that businesses get taxed for keeping jobs in the US. The ones that can afford to move their production then move it overseas to avoid the local taxes.

That actually makes two false statments in a post where you are arguing against strawmen. Most people would call that ironic, but I actually know what ironic means.

3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

I deferred my income once to avoid taxes, and I was making far less than a million dollars. That was a few years ago, and I understand the process is more complicated now, but you can still do it if you get a large raise.

By the way, being smart and rich doesn't help. It turns out that Romney, who has teams of lawyers and accountants, actually overpaid his taxes by $44,000 last year. If the tax code is actually biased to help rich people how did he end up paying more than he needed to?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/27/b...taxes-than-he-owed-high-low-finance.html?_r=1

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Considering how little you actually know about taxes I feel pretty safe ignoring your predictions of doom.

The tax code is a huge document which I suspect no one who posts on this message board fully understands. Maybe no one does. But the consequences are obvious to all of us, we spend too much based on the revenue we generate.

Rather than deal with that problem, the Congress defaults to blaming the other party and past pols. Start with the real problem, members of congress accept bribes and only the wealthy can offer enough incentives to impact legislation.

Before any of our problems - and there are many - can begin to be solved we need to make campaign donations illegal and subject to imprisonment.

As the man said, it is really that simple. Make the job a job someone who cares about our nation and its people would want; pay them well and provide housing in The District and transportation to and from their district, restrict campaigning to 90 days before elections and make slander and libel felonies, crimes which upon conviction require not less than one year and one day in prison and the loss of the privilege to vote, run for office or hold any governmental job in the future.
 
I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

Idiotic logic.

Everyone but you knows that the 47% refers to FEDERAL INCOME TAX.

Does that include everyone who refers to those people as having NO skin in the game?
 

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