The $15 Minimum Wage Is Turning Hard Workers Into Black Market Lawbreakers

Because the people whining for a 15 an hour MW have been bagging burgers for years without trying to get another job
people who get paid the federal minimum wage total a whopping 3% of the population
and that 3% includes tipped workers who might actually make significantly more than MW

Many states already have MW that exceeds the federal MW
What you want is increase in labor costs with no corresponding increase in production so you will have a cost increase multiplier happening across all sectors of the economy.
all because a few people don't want to improve their value to the marketplace.
Skull Pilot, the federal minimum wage has an inverse relationship to all USA wage scales. Proportionally it has greater effects lower wages and lesser effects higher wages. But to some extent, it bolsters all USA wages.

It has a significant effect upon all lower wage scales; (i.e the lowest earning 20% of USA's full-time employees. (That's much more than the “people who get paid the federal minimum wage total a whopping 3% of the population” you refer to).

Respectfully, Supposn
 
[Because the people whining for a 15 an hour MW have been bagging burgers for years without trying to get another job
people who get paid the federal minimum wage total a whopping 3% of the population
and that 3% includes tipped workers who might actually make significantly more than MW

Many states already have MW that exceeds the federal MW
What you want is increase in labor costs with no corresponding increase in production so you will have a cost increase multiplier happening across all sectors of the economy.
all because a few people don't want to improve their value to the marketplace.
Skull Pilot, the essence of personal and political opposition to the FMW rate:

The federal minimum wage, (FMW) rate is of net social and economic benefit to our nation. It has never been among the major causes of the U.S. dollar’s inflation; on the contrary, it’s certainly among inflations’ victims.
No employees are poorer and no enterprises suffer any competitive disadvantage to any USA enterprises due to the FMW rate.

[there’s no doubt that USA’s higher wage rates are a cause of our products’ price disadvantages in comparison to products from lower-wage nations; but although the elimination of our FMW rate laws would be greatly detrimental to our nation’s net social and economic well-being, eliminating it would accomplish extremely little to remedy our products’ global price disadvantages. [Refer to Wikipedia’s “Import Certificates” article.]

I suppose most USA’s population, (significantly more than a 10% plurality) to some extent approve of federal minimum rate’s existence. There are few among wealthy or competent people that are opposed to the federal minimum rate.

A great proportion of minimum rate opponents lack self-esteem. They need whatever affirmation of their own worth that they can derive by being able to look down upon people experiencing lesser financial conditions. They cannot acknowledge even to themselves their fears of improving the financial conditions of others would consequentially reduce their own social status. That’s the essence of personal and political opposition to the FMW rate.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
I agree with Trump that, because the cost of living living varies from state to state, the ideal way to solve the minimum wage problem would be for the states to increase the minimum wage. However if they don't then the federal govt. should step in and do it.

A few years back I did a lot of calculations and came to the conclusion that a $20 to $25/hour minimum wage being phased in over a 14-18 year period would be ideal.
 
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[Because the people whining for a 15 an hour MW have been bagging burgers for years without trying to get another job
people who get paid the federal minimum wage total a whopping 3% of the population
and that 3% includes tipped workers who might actually make significantly more than MW

Many states already have MW that exceeds the federal MW
What you want is increase in labor costs with no corresponding increase in production so you will have a cost increase multiplier happening across all sectors of the economy.
all because a few people don't want to improve their value to the marketplace.
Skull Pilot, the essence of personal and political opposition to the FMW rate:

The federal minimum wage, (FMW) rate is of net social and economic benefit to our nation. It has never been among the major causes of the U.S. dollar’s inflation; on the contrary, it’s certainly among inflations’ victims.
No employees are poorer and no enterprises suffer any competitive disadvantage to any USA enterprises due to the FMW rate.

[there’s no doubt that USA’s higher wage rates are a cause of our products’ price disadvantages in comparison to products from lower-wage nations; but although the elimination of our FMW rate laws would be greatly detrimental to our nation’s net social and economic well-being, eliminating it would accomplish extremely little to remedy our products’ global price disadvantages. [Refer to Wikipedia’s “Import Certificates” article.]

I suppose most USA’s population, (significantly more than a 10% plurality) to some extent approve of federal minimum rate’s existence. There are few among wealthy or competent people that are opposed to the federal minimum rate.

A great proportion of minimum rate opponents lack self-esteem. They need whatever affirmation of their own worth that they can derive by being able to look down upon people experiencing lesser financial conditions. They cannot acknowledge even to themselves their fears of improving the financial conditions of others would consequentially reduce their own social status. That’s the essence of personal and political opposition to the FMW rate.

Respectfully, Supposn
I never once suggested eliminating the MW there is however no need to raise it to 15 an hour

there is not one MW job n this country that merits a salary of over 30K a year
 
Raising the minimum wage by 100+% is FAR more than just raising pay for those on MW. It will eventually effect every salaried worker.

Say you have a large company and the MW is raised to $15? Well, Joe will go from $8/hr to $15. But Joe's superior Samantha was making $12/hr.. You can't just give her $15...she has to make more than her underling. So she gets a raise to $22 (to keep her roughly 50% higher in pay than Joe).
But now Mark - who is Samantha's boss - makes less than her at his $20/hr.. So, you have to raise his pay to $29 to keep his about 1/3 higher than her pay.
And so on and so on...

Pretty soon, almost everyone in the company has a huge raise in pay...but production has not increased at all.
That is disasterous for productivity. So either the company automates to save money and/or it raises it's prices.

The higher you raise minimum wage, the more jobs you lose, the higher prices go and the less competitive American businesses become.

The trade deficit is bad enough. Raising the MW to $15 will only make it worse...and give people like Trump even more excuses for their ridiculous, protectionistic tariffs (which just raises prices even more).

The government should always - ALWAYS - stay out of the economy and leave it to the people.
 
I have mixed feelings on $15 minimum wage.
On the one hand, obviously, it greatly helps the standard of living for those who get the huge wage increase.

On the other, a 100+% increase in pay with a zero increase in production is not good for business. Plus, the extra costs will be passed on to the customers.
Finally, the non-partisan CBO has stated that a higher minimum wage will cost many 100's of thousands of jobs nationwide. And that was only to $10.10 per hour.

The Effects of a Minimum-Wage Increase on Employment and Family Income | Congressional Budget Office

If the Dems take both houses in November (and especially if they also take the WH in 2020 - which the polls say looks likely right now)...this issue will probably re-surface in force.

Thoughts?
McRocket, you linked to a U.S. Congressional Budget Office, (CBO) report dated February 18, 2014. The current $7.25 federal minimum rate was enacted July 2009. Between February 1968 and September 2018, the minimum rate's purchasing power has declined in excess of 38%.
[The minimum rate's peak purchasing power was achieved February 1968. That nominal increase from $1.40 to $1.60/per Hr., (a nominal increase of 14.28%) less than a 9.6% increased purchasing power since the $1.40 rate was enacted in February 1967].

Your linked CBO report, https://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995 discusses a proposed minimum rate increases to $9.00 or to $10.10/per hour. CBO's estimates due to a $9 increase was a “very slight increase” of USA workers, (a fifth of a million more workers).
CBO's estimates due to a $10.10 increase was a “very slight decrease” of USA workers, (a million less workers).

Considering even only the immediate net economic and social consequences of the greater increase, (despite the more immediate loss of some small proportion of our very lowest wage jobs), I'm among those that believe the benefits of the greater increase were, and are net justified. But I'm a proponent of gradually pegging the rate up to the CPI while increasing the rate an additional 12% per year until the rate has achieved no less than 120% of its February 1968 purchasing power. Thereafter the rate should be annually adjusted to retain its purchasing power.

Respectfully, Supposn
//////////////////////////

Additional excerpts from CBO report's $10.10 estimates:

… a few higher-wage workers would owe their jobs and increased earnings to the heightened demand for goods and services that would result from the minimum-wage increase.

The increased earnings for low-wage workers resulting from the higher minimum wage would total $31 billion, by CBO’s estimate. However, those earnings would not go only to low-income families, because many low-wage workers are not members of low-income families. Just 19 percent of the $31 billion would accrue to families with earnings below the poverty threshold, whereas 29 percent would accrue to families earning more than three times the poverty threshold, CBO estimates.

Moreover, the increased earnings for some workers would be accompanied by reductions in real (inflation-adjusted) income for the people who became jobless because of the minimum-wage increase, for business owners, and for consumers facing higher prices. CBO examined family income overall and for various income groups, reaching the following conclusions:
Once the increases and decreases in income for all workers are taken into account, overall real income would rise by $2 billion.

  • Real income would increase, on net, by $5 billion for families whose income will be below the poverty threshold under current law, boosting their average family income by about 3 percent and moving about 900,000 people, on net, above the poverty threshold (out of the roughly 45 million people who are projected to be below that threshold under current law).

  • Families whose income would have been between one and three times the poverty threshold would receive, on net, $12 billion in additional real income. About $2 billion, on net, would go to families whose income would have been between three and six times the poverty threshold.

  • Real income would decrease, on net, by $17 billion for families whose income would otherwise have been six times the poverty threshold or more, lowering their average family income by 0.4 percent.
 
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I have mixed feelings on $15 minimum wage.

On the one hand, obviously it greatly helps the standard of living for those who get the huge wage increase.

On the other, a 100+% increase in pay with a zero increase in production is not good for business. Plus, the extra costs will be passed on to the customers.
Finally, the non-partisan CBO has stated that a higher minimum wage will cost many 100's of thousands of jobs nationwide. And that was only to $10.10 per hour.

The Effects of a Minimum-Wage Increase on Employment and Family Income | Congressional Budget Office

If the Dems take both houses in November (and especially if they also take the WH in 2020 - which the polls say looks likely right now)...this issue will probably re-surface in force.

Thoughts?


Arguments to annihilate western culture....Russian Hack!
 
Raising the minimum wage by 100+% is FAR more than just raising pay for those on MW. It will eventually effect every salaried worker.

Say you have a large company and the MW is raised to $15? Well, Joe will go from $8/hr to $15. But Joe's superior Samantha was making $12/hr.. You can't just give her $15...she has to make more than her underling. So she gets a raise to $22 (to keep her roughly 50% higher in pay than Joe).
But now Mark - who is Samantha's boss - makes less than her at his $20/hr.. So, you have to raise his pay to $29 to keep his about 1/3 higher than her pay.
And so on and so on...

Pretty soon, almost everyone in the company has a huge raise in pay...but production has not increased at all.
That is disasterous for productivity. So either the company automates to save money and/or it raises it's prices.

The higher you raise minimum wage, the more jobs you lose, the higher prices go and the less competitive American businesses become.

The trade deficit is bad enough. Raising the MW to $15 will only make it worse...and give people like Trump even more excuses for their ridiculous, protectionistic tariffs (which just raises prices even more).

The government should always - ALWAYS - stay out of the economy and leave it to the people.


McRocket, regarding The Effects of a Minimum-Wage Increase on Employment and Family Income | Congressional Budget Office and A Profile of the Working Poor, 2014 : BLS Reports: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics:
In 2014, USA's working poor were 6.3 % of our working population, and a million lost lowest rate jobs would equate itself to 1/9,487= 0.00010 or a ten thousandth of our very lowest wage jobs.
In aggregate, the working poor, all other lower-income earners, would significantly benefit, the majority of middle-income earners would benefit.

The benefits of the minimum wage are inversely related to earners' wage rates. Only higher income earners, (the CBO estimates families earning six or more time the poverty threshold) would lose almost a half percent of their purchasing power due to an increase of the minimum rate from $7.25 to $10.10 per hour. (I have my doubts of such losses for families with incomes additional to wages. Their investment incomes would increase due to the improved national economy).

Respectfully, Supposn

Excerpted from your link, https://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995 :
Once the increases and decreases in income for all workers are taken into account, overall real income would rise by $2 billion.

Real income would increase, on net, by $5 billion for families whose income will be below the poverty threshold under current law, boosting their average family income by about 3 percent and moving about 900,000 people, on net, above the poverty threshold (out of the roughly 45 million people who are projected to be below that threshold under current law).

Families whose income would have been between one and three times the poverty threshold would receive, on net, $12 billion in additional real income. About $2 billion, on net, would go to families whose income would have been between three and six times the poverty threshold.

Real income would decrease, on net, by $17 billion for families whose income would otherwise have been six times the poverty threshold or more, lowering their average family income by 0.4 percent.
 
Raising the minimum wage by 100+% is FAR more than just raising pay for those on MW. It will eventually effect every salaried worker.

Say you have a large company and the MW is raised to $15? Well, Joe will go from $8/hr to $15. But Joe's superior Samantha was making $12/hr.. You can't just give her $15...she has to make more than her underling. So she gets a raise to $22 (to keep her roughly 50% higher in pay than Joe).
But now Mark - who is Samantha's boss - makes less than her at his $20/hr.. So, you have to raise his pay to $29 to keep his about 1/3 higher than her pay.
And so on and so on...

Pretty soon, almost everyone in the company has a huge raise in pay...but production has not increased at all.
That is disasterous for productivity. So either the company automates to save money and/or it raises it's prices.

The higher you raise minimum wage, the more jobs you lose, the higher prices go and the less competitive American businesses become.

The trade deficit is bad enough. Raising the MW to $15 will only make it worse...and give people like Trump even more excuses for their ridiculous, protectionistic tariffs (which just raises prices even more).

The government should always - ALWAYS - stay out of the economy and leave it to the people.
McRocket, I should have responded to this point of your post before; when you write of the federal minimum rate increased from 7.25 to $15/per hour, I assume we're discussing a gradual increase over some time. The FMW rate has never been “suddenly” or “shockingly” increased.

Due to the concept of comparative wages, the minimum wage rate performs its desirable function as to support ALL of the nation's wage scales. But it shouldn't and doesn't support them all equally. The minimum rate's benefit to different wage scales is inversely related. Lesser wage rates are more, and greater wages are less proportionally supported by the minimum rate.
The purchasing power of the federal minimum wage supports the purchasing power of our median wage that's a good indicator of our nation's living standards.

USA's chronic annual trade deficits are always net detrimental to our GDP, drag upon our and numbers of jobs which in turn drags upon our median wage. USA is at price disadvantage to low-wage nations. Eliminating the legally enforced federal minimum wage rate, or in any other manner hindering its retention of purchasing power would not significantly reduce USA exports price disadvantages unless we permitted our median wage to plunge down to that of the nations we trade with.
I'm a proponent of the policy described within Wikipedia'd “Import Certificates” article.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
Raising the minimum wage ... either the company automates to save money and/or it raises it's prices. ...
McRocket, higher minimum rate accelerates automation and the purchasing power of the federal minimum wage rate supports USA's wages. Automation’s lesser per-unit production costs and/or other improvements due to automation have been net beneficial to our nation.

To the extent that a lesser minimum rate delays or otherwise hinders automation in the USA, that lesser rate has additionally been net detrimental to our nation’s economic and social well-being.

Respectfully, Supposn
 
Raising the minimum wage by 100+% is FAR more than just raising pay for those on MW. It will eventually effect every salaried worker.

Say you have a large company and the MW is raised to $15? Well, Joe will go from $8/hr to $15. But Joe's superior Samantha was making $12/hr.. You can't just give her $15...she has to make more than her underling. So she gets a raise to $22 (to keep her roughly 50% higher in pay than Joe).
But now Mark - who is Samantha's boss - makes less than her at his $20/hr.. So, you have to raise his pay to $29 to keep his about 1/3 higher than her pay.
And so on and so on...

Pretty soon, almost everyone in the company has a huge raise in pay...but production has not increased at all.
That is disasterous for productivity. So either the company automates to save money and/or it raises it's prices.

The higher you raise minimum wage, the more jobs you lose, the higher prices go and the less competitive American businesses become.

The trade deficit is bad enough. Raising the MW to $15 will only make it worse...and give people like Trump even more excuses for their ridiculous, protectionistic tariffs (which just raises prices even more).

The government should always - ALWAYS - stay out of the economy and leave it to the people.


Lol, smantha won't get a raise from $12 to $22 an hour she would be lucky to make $15.25
 
I never once suggested eliminating the MW there is however no need to raise it to 15 an hour

there is not one MW job n this country that merits a salary of over 30K a year
Skull Pilot, many employers believe their low-wage employees do not earn the wages they’re paying; but they continue to retain those employees. They’re not altruistic; they realize it would be net detrimental to their enterprises if they did otherwise.
... I'm a proponent of gradually pegging the rate up to the CPI while increasing the rate an additional 12% per year until the rate has achieved no less than 120% of its February 1968 purchasing power. Thereafter the rate should be annually adjusted to retain its purchasing power. ...
In February 1968 the minimum rate was $1.60 per hour. (1.20)(1.60) = $1.92

Refer to https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1.92&year1=196802&year2=201809
The purchasing power of $1.92 in the year 1968 is equal to $14.17 in September 2018.
Respectfully, Supposn
 
I never once suggested eliminating the MW there is however no need to raise it to 15 an hour

there is not one MW job n this country that merits a salary of over 30K a year
Skull Pilot, many employers believe their low-wage employees do not earn the wages they’re paying; but they continue to retain those employees. They’re not altruistic; they realize it would be net detrimental to their enterprises if they did otherwise.
... I'm a proponent of gradually pegging the rate up to the CPI while increasing the rate an additional 12% per year until the rate has achieved no less than 120% of its February 1968 purchasing power. Thereafter the rate should be annually adjusted to retain its purchasing power. ...
In February 1968 the minimum rate was $1.60 per hour. (1.20)(1.60) = $1.92

Refer to https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1.92&year1=196802&year2=201809
The purchasing power of $1.92 in the year 1968 is equal to $14.17 in September 2018.
Respectfully, Supposn

Whether to keep or fire employees is for the business owner to decide.
If you have an employee who performs just well enough to keep at MW do you really think he will turn into a better employee if the business owner of forced to pay him more?

Is that guy who had no ambition but to stuff burgers in a bag for 10 years suddenly got 15 an hour instead of 8 an hour will he magically be at stuffing burgers in bags?
 
Whether to keep or fire employees is for the business owner to decide.
If you have an employee who performs just well enough to keep at MW do you really think he will turn into a better employee if the business owner of forced to pay him more?

Is that guy who had no ambition but to stuff burgers in a bag for 10 years suddenly got 15 an hour instead of 8 an hour will he magically be at stuffing burgers in bags?
Skull Pilot, federal minimum wage rate's purpose is to prevent the wage rates set by USA employers “racing” to an indefinite and extremely low bottom.

Nations lacking laws serving purposes somewhat similar to our federal minimum rate laws, or failing to effectively enforce such laws suffer economic consequences.
[Nation's currency values are generally in flux. To the extent we do not retain the federal minimum wage rate's purchasing power, we suffer some economic consequences].

Employers believing that greater rates can better motivate their employees and/or retain their employees, generally pay more than the minimum rate. Employee motivation or lack of it, (the subject of your post) is not the function or purpose of the minimum rate laws.

Why am I not receiving notices of responses to this discussion thread?

Respectfully, Supposn
 
Whether to keep or fire employees is for the business owner to decide.
If you have an employee who performs just well enough to keep at MW do you really think he will turn into a better employee if the business owner of forced to pay him more?

Is that guy who had no ambition but to stuff burgers in a bag for 10 years suddenly got 15 an hour instead of 8 an hour will he magically be at stuffing burgers in bags?
Skull Pilot, federal minimum wage rate's purpose is to prevent the wage rates set by USA employers “racing” to an indefinite and extremely low bottom.

Nations lacking laws serving purposes somewhat similar to our federal minimum rate laws, or failing to effectively enforce such laws suffer economic consequences.
[Nation's currency values are generally in flux. To the extent we do not retain the federal minimum wage rate's purchasing power, we suffer some economic consequences].

Employers believing that greater rates can better motivate their employees and/or retain their employees, generally pay more than the minimum rate. Employee motivation or lack of it, (the subject of your post) is not the function or purpose of the minimum rate laws.

Why am I not receiving notices of responses to this discussion thread?

Respectfully, Supposn

ALL labor is a commodity.

If people don't care enough about the value of their labor that they are satisfied with menial low paying jobs that is their choice.

97% of hourly workers make more than the MW I see no reason to raise it
 
Skull Pilot, the federal minimum wage has an inverse relationship to all USA wage scales. Proportionally it has greater effects lower wages and lesser effects higher wages. But to some extent, it bolsters all USA wages.

It has a significant effect upon all lower wage scales; (i.e the lowest earning 20% of USA's full-time employees. (That's much more than the “people who get paid the federal minimum wage total a whopping 3% of the population” you refer to). Respectfully, Supposn
QUOTE="Skull Pilot, post: 20997140, member: 7407"]If people don't care enough about the value of their labor that they are satisfied with menial low paying jobs that is their choice.​

97% of hourly workers make more than the MW I see no reason to raise it[/QUOTE]

Skull Pilot, you don't read, or you're not cognizant of what you've read?
 
Whether to keep or fire employees is for the business owner to decide.
If you have an employee who performs just well enough to keep at MW do you really think he will turn into a better employee if the business owner of forced to pay him more?

Is that guy who had no ambition but to stuff burgers in a bag for 10 years suddenly got 15 an hour instead of 8 an hour will he magically be at stuffing burgers in bags?
Skull Pilot, federal minimum wage rate's purpose is to prevent the wage rates set by USA employers “racing” to an indefinite and extremely low bottom.

Nations lacking laws serving purposes somewhat similar to our federal minimum rate laws, or failing to effectively enforce such laws suffer economic consequences.
[Nation's currency values are generally in flux. To the extent we do not retain the federal minimum wage rate's purchasing power, we suffer some economic consequences].

Employers believing that greater rates can better motivate their employees and/or retain their employees, generally pay more than the minimum rate. Employee motivation or lack of it, (the subject of your post) is not the function or purpose of the minimum rate laws.

Why am I not receiving notices of responses to this discussion thread?

Respectfully, Supposn

Look at the job boards .The only place I can show you people making minimum wage in manufacturing are in the places with a high minimum wage, the other places are way over their States minimum wage
 
Skull Pilot, federal minimum wage rate's purpose is to prevent the wage rates set by USA employers “racing” to an indefinite and extremely low bottom.

Nations lacking laws serving purposes somewhat similar to our federal minimum rate laws, or failing to effectively enforce such laws suffer economic consequences.
[Nation's currency values are generally in flux. To the extent we do not retain the federal minimum wage rate's purchasing power, we suffer some economic consequences]. ...
Look at the job boards. The only place I can show you people making minimum wage in manufacturing are in the places with a high minimum wage, the other places are way over their States minimum wage
Bear513, the federal minimum wage rate is of benefit and applicable goods and service productions within all USA industries. Respectfully, Supposn
 
McRocket, I'm a proponent of annually increasing the federal minimum wage rate 12% until its purchasing power's at least 20% higher than its 1968 peak. Thereafter the rate should continue to be monitored and annually modified to retain its purchasing power.

Although all federal branches of government would continue to be empowered to monitor and if necessary oversee the minimum wage rate, if our U.S. Congress would just once set a realistic rate pegged to the consumer price index, the rate would remain hence forte a matter subject to civil service statisticians rather than to congressional politicians.

I'm an old man but I hope and I believe this is likely to occur within my lifetime.

Respectfully, Supposn

McRocket, I'm a proponent of annually increasing the federal minimum wage rate 12% until its purchasing power's at least 20% higher than its 1968 peak.

Many workers don't provide $14.20/hour in added value.
Your proposal will screw them all.

No thanks.
 
Because the people whining for a 15 an hour MW have been bagging burgers for years without trying to get another job
people who get paid the federal minimum wage total a whopping 3% of the population
and that 3% includes tipped workers who might actually make significantly more than MW

Many states already have MW that exceeds the federal MW
What you want is increase in labor costs with no corresponding increase in production so you will have a cost increase multiplier happening across all sectors of the economy.
all because a few people don't want to improve their value to the marketplace.
Skull Pilot, the federal minimum wage has an inverse relationship to all USA wage scales. Proportionally it has greater effects lower wages and lesser effects higher wages. But to some extent, it bolsters all USA wages.

It has a significant effect upon all lower wage scales; (i.e the lowest earning 20% of USA's full-time employees. (That's much more than the “people who get paid the federal minimum wage total a whopping 3% of the population” you refer to).

Respectfully, Supposn

It has a significant effect upon all lower wage scales; (i.e the lowest earning 20% of USA's full-time employees.

How does the minimum wage impact someone making $9/hour? Or $11/hour?
 

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