That Ugly "A" Word Again..."Apartheid."

[sealadaigh]

The Palestinian Authority warned on Saturday that long-standing lack of movement toward peace with Israel was threatening the concept of a two-state solution and could lead to Palestinians being left in an Israeli-run "apartheid" state.

"The establishment of a politically and economically viable State of Palestine is impossible without ending the Israeli occupation of the whole West Bank and Gaza Strip, including East Jerusalem," the 22-page document, published on Saturday, said.

PA warns Israel logjam threatens statehood - Israel News, Ynetnews

israel really is in sort of a pickle here.

a two state solution means they have to give up certain areas that they are illegally occupying...

or they will have to accept a one state solution, which if they wish to continue the myth of "a beacon unto the nations of the world" and "the only democracy in the mideast", means they will have to give palestinians the vote and relinquish their long held hegemony over the indigenous arab population...

does anyone really wonder who benefits from maintaining the status quo and stalling on entering into negotiations for a solution to this conflict?

some may seriously want to carefully read the first line of article 2 in the link below, which includes language about "national group"s...

Convention on Genocide

 

[MHunterB]

The PA is not particularly honest and is certainly NOT 'objective' or 'impartial'.

Why should any reasonable American citizen give the PA's words even the credibility they'd give Israel, which is an ally of the US?

 

[MHunterB]

The corrupt PA and HAMAS "leadership" - like so many other oligarchies in Arab and Muslim lands! - benefit, by the BILLIONS in their Swiss bank accounts.

As do the corrupt "rulers" of so many Muslim-majority nations who point to Israel as the source and reason for whatever ails their lands.

 

[sealadaigh]

The PA is not particularly honest and is certainly NOT 'objective' or 'impartial'.

Why should any reasonable American citizen give the PA's words even the credibility they'd give Israel, which is an ally of the US?

"The Palestinian Authority warned on Saturday that long-standing lack of movement toward peace with Israel was threatening the concept of a two-state solution and could lead to Palestinians being left in an Israeli-run "apartheid" state."

abbas sounds frustrated to me and wants to enter into negotiiations, and his attempts are always being rejected by israel.

you attack the corruption of the PA. i could attack the corruption of the israeli government. certainly both governments come into play, but it is the best interest of the palestinian officials to make peace, which is what they are trying to do. i cannot say the same for the israeli officials. the two equally balanced maor parties need to court the various parties representing the settlers in order for one to come out on top.

we could do this forever. it would lead nowhere.

how about this. what exactly do you think a solution is that will provide for a viable palestinian state and a peace partner with israel? the issues are borders, prisoners, and reugees. otherwise, you really are faced with history calling this a genocide. do you realise how damaging that will be to israel and jews worldwide.

 

[AmyNation]

My personal opinion, Israel doesnt want a Palestinian state. Both the notion of giving over land and having the palestinians form a nation that will, im sure, be aided by enemies of Israel, and the idea of allowing Palestinians who despise Israel to be considered equal citizens with equal voice and vote is untenable.

 

[sealadaigh]

The corrupt PA and HAMAS "leadership" - like so many other oligarchies in Arab and Muslim lands! - benefit, by the BILLIONS in their Swiss bank accounts.

As do the corrupt "rulers" of so many Muslim-majority nations who point to Israel as the source and reason for whatever ails their lands.

what muslim maority nations point to israel as the source of all their problems?,

but so what if it was true? israel's problem with palestine is seperate from the alleged problems you mention israel has with the muslim world. are you saying israel shouldn't negotiate with palestine because senegal has some sort of problem of another with israel.

abbas wants to negotiate.

 

[MHunterB]

I seriously doubt - to say the least! - that 'history' will view this situation as a 'genocide'. Unless the Arab League plot to disenfranchise their assorted Jewish citizenry and eject them with no compensation for any of theier property or their lands is going to be viewed as the attempted genocide it was ?

Nor is it at all sensible, IMO, to suggest that a lack of resolution would be 'damaging to....Jews worldwide'. No reasonable person or group is going to blame 'Jews worldwide' for whatever an Israeli administration fails to do.

 

[sealadaigh]

My personal opinion, Israel doesnt want a Palestinian state. Both the notion of giving over land and having the palestinians form a nation that will, im sure, be aided by enemies of Israel, and the idea of allowing Palestinians who despise Israel to be considered equal citizens with equal voice and vote is untenable.

i think that's a good opinion. i think it is a bit more complicated than that but you pretty much hit the nail on the head. there was, awhile back, an initiative/proposal that offered israel full recognition by the arab league states, the whole shebang. israel rejected that for some reason. i think it is still on the table.

 

[MHunterB]

It isn't a matter of 'Israel having problems with the Muslim world', Seal - it's a matter of despots like Assad and the Iranian mullahthugs making patently false and obscenely ridiculous claims that 'Israel' is attacking them.


Let's see, a couple ofecades ago it was the Egyptian papers 'reporting' that the IDF soldiers in the Sinai were handing out chewing gum 'laden with sex hormomes' to Egyptian schoolgirls.

That, like the "Israeli scientists invented AIDS", is obviously totally fabricated filth - but the Governments are the ones putting out this filth. And the purpose is obvious: incite the populace to focus on 'Israel' as the cause of whatever seems to be wrong, rather than realize that the government is oppressive.

 

[MHunterB]

Why don't you look up that 'proposal' and link to it, so we can ALL see the details?

To date, not a single 'AL' proposal has even acknowledged the Jewish Arab refugees of '48 - some 950,000 people stripped of their citizenship as well as everything they owned simply because they were Jews in Arab nations (and Iran).

If the 'refugee' problem is to be solved, it needs to be solved for ALL the refugees - or it isn't solved at all.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

Why don't you look up that 'proposal' and link to it, so we can ALL see the details?

To date, not a single 'AL' proposal has even acknowledged the Jewish Arab refugees of '48 - some 950,000 people stripped of their citizenship as well as everything they owned simply because they were Jews in Arab nations (and Iran).

If the 'refugee' problem is to be solved, it needs to be solved for ALL the refugees - or it isn't solved at all.

So what will be the solution for any of the refugees?

 

[BecauseIKnow]

Neither seem like they are in for negotiating.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

I don't see where Abbas mentioned refugees

 

[sealadaigh]

I seriously doubt - to say the least! - that 'history' will view this situation as a 'genocide'. Unless the Arab League plot to disenfranchise their assorted Jewish citizenry and eject them with no compensation for any of theier property or their lands is going to be viewed as the attempted genocide it was ?

Nor is it at all sensible, IMO, to suggest that a lack of resolution would be 'damaging to....Jews worldwide'. No reasonable person or group is going to blame 'Jews worldwide' for whatever an Israeli administration fails to do.

they already are, or so the jews in different countries claim. i am not going to debate the definition of "reasonable" with you. you think it is reasonable to shun neo-nazis. i do too. some people think it reasonable to shun those who support israel based upon the israeli treatment of the palestinians. people have been using the word "genocide" more commonly in referring to the situation. it started a year or two ago.

you are evading the initial question and coming up with all kinds of diversions and excuses. it is not at all unlike what people have seen israel do over the years rom at least the time of sharon.

if israel wants peace, they have to sit down and negotiate peace instead of constantly finding reasons not to. if they want the west bank and to drive the palesstinians out or make any nation unviable, then all they have to do is keep doing what they are doing, but there are going to be enormous consequences to that.

 

[sealadaigh]

It isn't a matter of 'Israel having problems with the Muslim world', Seal - it's a matter of despots like Assad and the Iranian mullahthugs making patently false and obscenely ridiculous claims that 'Israel' is attacking them.


Let's see, a couple ofecades ago it was the Egyptian papers 'reporting' that the IDF soldiers in the Sinai were handing out chewing gum 'laden with sex hormomes' to Egyptian schoolgirls.

That, like the "Israeli scientists invented AIDS", is obviously totally fabricated filth - but the Governments are the ones putting out this filth. And the purpose is obvious: incite the populace to focus on 'Israel' as the cause of whatever seems to be wrong, rather than realize that the government is oppressive.

so, israel won't negotiate with the palestinians because assad and iran allegedly made claims that israel is attacking them or an article in THE(?) egytian papers (i am making the natural assumption that you mean some egyptian papers and not all egyptian papers, despite your prior arguments to the contrary) had a story about the IDF and chewing gum four decades ago.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

It isn't a matter of 'Israel having problems with the Muslim world', Seal - it's a matter of despots like Assad and the Iranian mullahthugs making patently false and obscenely ridiculous claims that 'Israel' is attacking them.


Let's see, a couple ofecades ago it was the Egyptian papers 'reporting' that the IDF soldiers in the Sinai were handing out chewing gum 'laden with sex hormomes' to Egyptian schoolgirls.

That, like the "Israeli scientists invented AIDS", is obviously totally fabricated filth - but the Governments are the ones putting out this filth. And the purpose is obvious: incite the populace to focus on 'Israel' as the cause of whatever seems to be wrong, rather than realize that the government is oppressive.

so, israel won't negotiate with the palestinians because assad and iran allegedly made claims that israel is attacking them or an article in THE(?) egytian papers (i am making the natural assumption that you mean some egyptian papers and not all egyptian papers, despite your prior arguments to the contrary) had a story about the IDF and chewing gum four decades ago.

Israel won't even let half of their represantives there. So how is that negotiating?

 

[BecauseIKnow]

Whoops didn't notice its CDZ. Well anyways we are friends and were joking. This two state solution thing is gonna be interesting. I wonder were both the Israelis and the Palestinians will go with this...I can't really predict how it's gonna come out

 

[sealadaigh]

Why don't you look up that 'proposal' and link to it, so we can ALL see the details?

To date, not a single 'AL' proposal has even acknowledged the Jewish Arab refugees of '48 - some 950,000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiativepeople stripped of their citizenship as well as everything they owned simply because they were Jews in Arab nations (and Iran).

If the 'refugee' problem is to be solved, it needs to be solved for ALL the refugees - or it isn't solved at all.

Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Document: The Arab Peace Initiative, 2002

refugees is a defined legal term. many of the jews left their home states. many stayed behind. if they are jews in refugee camps, they should be made whole.

i think israel bringing up the "jewish refugee" problem at this time is pretty disingenuous and transparent, and you are eveding and diverting again.

lets take refugees off the table for now. the palestinians have said it can be dealt with later. we can take the prisoners off too. similar negotiations of these types in the past have granted amnesty for all prisoners of any politically motivated crimes.

 

[sealadaigh]

Whoops didn't notice its CDZ. Well anyways we are friends and were joking. This two state solution thing is gonna be interesting. I wonder were both the Israelis and the Palestinians will go with this...I can't really predict how it's gonna come out

you can always go back and edit violations out. the time is limited.

 

[flacaltenn]

The PA is not particularly honest and is certainly NOT 'objective' or 'impartial'.

Why should any reasonable American citizen give the PA's words even the credibility they'd give Israel, which is an ally of the US?

"The Palestinian Authority warned on Saturday that long-standing lack of movement toward peace with Israel was threatening the concept of a two-state solution and could lead to Palestinians being left in an Israeli-run "apartheid" state."

abbas sounds frustrated to me and wants to enter into negotiiations, and his attempts are always being rejected by israel.

you attack the corruption of the PA. i could attack the corruption of the israeli government. certainly both governments come into play, but it is the best interest of the palestinian officials to make peace, which is what they are trying to do. i cannot say the same for the israeli officials. the two equally balanced maor parties need to court the various parties representing the settlers in order for one to come out on top.

we could do this forever. it would lead nowhere.

how about this. what exactly do you think a solution is that will provide for a viable palestinian state and a peace partner with israel? the issues are borders, prisoners, and reugees. otherwise, you really are faced with history calling this a genocide. do you realise how damaging that will be to israel and jews worldwide.

The values of Israelis and Palestinians are WAAAAY too different to consider a shared governing responsibility.

To answer your last question -- you only have to ask yourself why the country that ISRAEL TOOK the West Bank and Jerusalem FROM in that war -- wants no part of responsibility for the Palestinians there now.. If Jordan and Lebanon and Egypt were SERIOUS about CONTRIBUTING stability and support to an economic Pali state, the negotiations would be at a better level. Between Israel and THOSE arab countries -- stuff COULD get done..

Why is it that Jordan washed their hands of the West Bank in the river? Israel did not those lands from "the Palestinians".