Thanks to Conservatives, Unions will probably make a big comeback.

[PoliticalChic]

Seeing as your link refers to 'collective democracy,' I'm going to have to disagree, to find the title syncretic...

Paul Kangor, who wrote "Dupes," described Marx's ideas as simply the end of private property....

what do you suppose it would take to enforce that idea?

“In its many enthroned variations, from Lenin's 1917 revolution to the recent Marxist Leninist regimes of Africa, communism has killed upwards of 100 million people, 65 million in China alone. Courtois and his colleagues do not simply unfold the numbers relentlessly and numbingly. Instead, they painstakingly explore the many ways the killing was done-from summary execution to forced deportations, from mass starvation to the gulag-and examine its many pretexts.”
The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression
Foreign Affairs (Book Review); New York; Nov/Dec 1999; Robert Legvold;

Kangor also reviewed the most popular texts in use in American schools: not one included those statistics.

Yep. People only started dying of starvation, summary executions and forced deportations once the Communists came to power. Before then..heck..no one died.

That is the attitude that can only arise from the kind of education that has been imposed by left-leaning liberals/progressives.

You imply, whether you reallize it or not, that communism is just a garden variety political philosophy....it is not.

Every one of the totalist thought-and-body control attempts, communism, nazism, fascism, phalangism, progressivism, liberalism, is detrimental to the health of the body politic and the body itself.

You have revealed the depth of your lacunae on this matter.

On what basis are you prepared to have an opinion? Clearly, to be a liberal, one need not have any knowledge.

 

[whitehall]

Wishful thinking and convoluted reasoning aside, the issue is about state finances. Hate-America lefties have turned it into an argument about unions.

 

[Sallow]

That is the attitude that can only arise from the kind of education that has been imposed by left-leaning liberals/progressives.

You imply, whether you reallize it or not, that communism is just a garden variety political philosophy....it is not.

Every one of the totalist thought-and-body control attempts, communism, nazism, fascism, phalangism, progressivism, liberalism, is detrimental to the health of the body politic and the body itself.

You have revealed the depth of your lacunae on this matter.

On what basis are you prepared to have an opinion? Clearly, to be a liberal, one need not have any knowledge.

Revolutions, no matter how well intended, generally are bloodly and filled with peril. Our own resulted in the deaths of millions. They weren't white...so I guess in your book..they don't matter. I've pointed out in other threads that Ghandi's efforts resulted in the deaths of millions as well. Ascribing numbers of deaths to political philosphies only matters if it's global. And in your case..it is not.

There are for you "good" deaths and "bad" deaths..and those are depended on whether you believe in the cause or not.

 

[Sallow]

Wishful thinking and convoluted reasoning aside, the issue is about state finances. Hate-America lefties have turned it into an argument about unions.

Wisconson's state financial troubles were the results of tax cuts. Had they not taken place, the state would have enjoyed a surplus.

Math is not something conservatives deal with well.

 

[Annie]

Wishful thinking and convoluted reasoning aside, the issue is about state finances. Hate-America lefties have turned it into an argument about unions.

Wisconson's state financial troubles were the results of tax cuts. Had they not taken place, the state would have enjoyed a surplus.

Math is not something conservatives deal with well.

Understanding growth is something you seem to have problems with. WI and IN are both gaining jobs at the cost of IL workers, thanks to our state and local taxes.

Neighboring states gleeful over Illinois tax increase | cleveland.com

Neighboring states gleeful over Illinois tax increase
Published: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 8:49 AM Updated: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 8:53 AM
Associated Press business staff By Associated Press business staff
Scott WalkerAssociated Press Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker speaks at an inauguration ceremony at the state Capitol in Madison, Wis. Walker tried to take full advantage of Illinois lawmakers passing dramatic tax increases Wednesday saying Wisconsin would welcome any businesses from its neighboring state that care to relocate.

SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- While many states consider boosting their economies with tax cuts, Illinois officials are betting on the opposite tactic: dramatically raising taxes to resolve a budget crisis that threatened to cripple state government.

Neighboring states gleefully plotted Wednesday to take advantage of what they consider a major economic blunder and lure business away from Illinois.

"It's like living next door to 'The Simpsons' -- you know, the dysfunctional family down the block," Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels said in an interview on Chicago's WLS-AM...

 

[Ringel05]

There's been a slow, long lasting assault on Unions over the last 40 years. Quite honestly, it's been successful. There's been a strategy of business voluntarily giving out benefits, a characterization of Unions being corrupt and a move by conservative politicians to chip away at laws protecting Unions. This has added up to the lowest membership in quite some time. This last push, however, might be the final straw. Of late, Business has been dropping benefits, the disparity in pay is wildly skewing upward, and layoffs have been occurring while companies are showing massive profit.

All this makes for a ripe environment for Unions to thrive.

Wow! You mean to say you recognize the fact that all trends are cyclical? Outstanding!

 

[Sallow]

Wishful thinking and convoluted reasoning aside, the issue is about state finances. Hate-America lefties have turned it into an argument about unions.

Wisconson's state financial troubles were the results of tax cuts. Had they not taken place, the state would have enjoyed a surplus.

Math is not something conservatives deal with well.

Understanding growth is something you seem to have problems with. WI and IN are both gaining jobs at the cost of IL workers, thanks to our state and local taxes.

Neighboring states gleeful over Illinois tax increase | cleveland.com

Neighboring states gleeful over Illinois tax increase
Published: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 8:49 AM Updated: Thursday, January 13, 2011, 8:53 AM
Associated Press business staff By Associated Press business staff
Scott WalkerAssociated Press Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker speaks at an inauguration ceremony at the state Capitol in Madison, Wis. Walker tried to take full advantage of Illinois lawmakers passing dramatic tax increases Wednesday saying Wisconsin would welcome any businesses from its neighboring state that care to relocate.

SPRINGFIELD, Ill. -- While many states consider boosting their economies with tax cuts, Illinois officials are betting on the opposite tactic: dramatically raising taxes to resolve a budget crisis that threatened to cripple state government.

Neighboring states gleefully plotted Wednesday to take advantage of what they consider a major economic blunder and lure business away from Illinois.

"It's like living next door to 'The Simpsons' -- you know, the dysfunctional family down the block," Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels said in an interview on Chicago's WLS-AM...

I understand the economy just fine. It's a good deal more complicated then most conservatives like to believe. They've got 2 arrows in the quiver. And usually they fail to hit anything in terms of "raising all boats".

But they do a spot on job of getting the rich, richer.

 

[Sallow]

There's been a slow, long lasting assault on Unions over the last 40 years. Quite honestly, it's been successful. There's been a strategy of business voluntarily giving out benefits, a characterization of Unions being corrupt and a move by conservative politicians to chip away at laws protecting Unions. This has added up to the lowest membership in quite some time. This last push, however, might be the final straw. Of late, Business has been dropping benefits, the disparity in pay is wildly skewing upward, and layoffs have been occurring while companies are showing massive profit.

All this makes for a ripe environment for Unions to thrive.

Wow! You mean to say you recognize the fact that all trends are cyclical? Outstanding!

I posted the contrary..where?

 

[washamericom]

That's right, you know it's a lie because Michael Moore told you...


michael moore is fat political PIG.... communist from soviet union... A UNION !!!

 

[Sallow]

michael moore is THE fat political PIG communist from soviet union... A UNION !!!

I thought he was born in Flint, Michigan.

The things you learn on this board.

 

[Dot Com]

... Rasmussen poll found that ..... - Rasmussen Reports™[/url]

Rassmussen polls? You mean Murdoch polls. They pretty much use them exclusively. Thats like me saying "CBS said..." and not getting any reaction from a conservative

Welcome to the board. Always look forward to folks on the other side of the aisle.

Let me see if I can give you a pointer, as to improving your posts...

Rather than appear as just another vagrant on the message board, one who sees a post which includes either a link, quote, or reference to World Net Daily, or Rupert Murdoch, or Ann Coulter, or some other right-thinker, and rather than admit that the item is dispositive for the thread or question under discussion, you have chosen, wrongly, to

a. refuse to address the issue, because the citation is on the opposite side.
b. resort to an emoticon of laughter, or some sort of sign of disrespect, or the use of ‘lol.’
c. feel that some sort of “there you go again” response, rather than an actual refutation.

What we have here is the kind of defense against opposing ideas that is indolent at best, and intellectually cowardly at worst. Rather than offering alternative or surrogate ideas, the poster takes what is only acceptable in the echo chamber in which the left resides.

Poor form.

Grow up.


BTW, the left's attempt at casting aspirsions on Fox News and Rasmussen ran its course about six months ago, and proved less than effective.

At least get with the program.

And YET, you post the above diatribe w/o any citation. "Do as I say & not as I do" eh?

BTW- why aren't you a mod or the board parliamentarian if you're so enlightened?

 

[Missourian]

If Unions would get their heads out of their asses, there is definitely a need for Unions, but today's incarnation of Unions...how much can I get, how little can I get away with doing, how difficult can I make it to fire me...doesn't make the grade.

Missourian, you have absolutely got a point there. One which I will not argue in any form.

HOWEVER, at the same time, these large companies have to get their own heads out of their asses and realize that worker morale and happiness leads to a much more productive workforce and that nickle-and-diming a buch of employees to death makes them neither happier nor more productive. Nor do the vast majority of other workplace changes which are obviously undertaken solely in an attempt to increase profits without any consideration of the employees or the customer.

As I said earlier, I've watched this battel from both sides of the fence. Neither side really has any moral high ground on which to stand. It's like a mud wrestling match between two obese slobs. The problem is that neither side is willing to even consider attempting to find a middle ground solution. Until BOTH sides are, nothing is going to change.

I've been on at least three, maybe four sides of the battle.

I've been a non-union employee with a company that also had a union workforce.

I joined the union workforce of the same company and became a member of the IBEW Union.

I worked for a non-union company in a different field that competed with union companies.

I started my own business and have been forced to work with many union companies...and I mean forced, because if you want any job to take as long as humanly possible, make sure to hire a union contractor.

I know that we need unions, in fact, I agree with Sallow that we need more unions, but different unions...a new incarnation of the old unions.

Unions should be fighting for a fair wage, not an unsustainable grossly inflated wage.

Unions should protect workers from unwarranted termination, not protect the incompetent, unqualified and just plain lazy from warranted termination.

Unions should incentivize productivity instead of stifle it.

Unions should be concerned with all workers, not just union workers.
Unions are so anti non-union, is it any wonder no one wants to unionize?

Unions should work with management to build better companies, not constantly be at loggerheads. Business wants to make money, unions can contribute to that goal AND advance the interests of their workers.

Unions in their current structure are doomed...the union companies cannot compete unless "the fix is in".

You'll notice at the union rallies, you don't see the Brotherhood, or the Boilermakers, or the Pipefitters or the Teamsters, only the government workers really remain, and that is only because the fix is in...the government doesn't need to make a profit, or have private competition...but they do have to satisfy their investors...the taxpayers.

 

[Anachronism]

Missourian, I agree with almost everything you said there. The one thing I might have to dissent on is the idea that Unions should be concerned with all workers, and that nobody wants to Unionize. In fact, we seem to be seeing a rise in the number of Professional Unions (as compared to Labor Unions) out there these days.

While I agree that the Unions should not be looking to stifle, abuse, or otherwise negatively impact non-Union workers, I would be exceptionally upset if the Union that I pay dues to came to us and informed us that they were going to be spending money and negotiating time, trying to improve the conditions of individuals who do not pay dues to this Union. I don't want our negotiators in there trying to harm those people, but I don't see any necessity to try and improve their conditions either. Especially not at the expense of Represented workers.

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

What I find the most amusing throughout all of this is that liberals actually believe they have a place at the table of discussion. Liberals lost HUGE in November and 2012 is around the corner. Rasmussen released new polls today and the entire base for democrats is pathetic, having shrunk nearly 50% over the last five years. My uncle was a lifelong democrat but left the liberal plantation of death and destruction.. not because he wanted to but because the party left him when the far left kooks took over. Liberals can whine, spew, spit, have temper tantrums.. who gives a shit? Americans are going to make certain our country remains solid, capitalist, and free despite the Marxist attempt to destroy her.

 

[The T]

What I find the most amusing throughout all of this is that liberals actually believe they have a place at the table of discussion. Liberals lost HUGE in November and 2012 is around the corner. Rasmussen released new polls today and the entire base for democrats is pathetic, having shrunk nearly 50% over the last five years. My uncle was a lifelong democrat but left the liberal plantation of death and destruction.. not because he wanted to but because the party left him when the far left kooks took over. Liberals can whine, spew, spit, have temper tantrums.. who gives a shit? Americans are going to make certain our country remains solid, capitalist, and free despite the Marxist attempt to destroy her.

“I didn’t leave the Democratic Party. The party left me.” Ronald Reagan, 1962

 

[bigrebnc1775]

There's been a slow, long lasting assault on Unions over the last 40 years. Quite honestly, it's been successful. There's been a strategy of business voluntarily giving out benefits, a characterization of Unions being corrupt and a move by conservative politicians to chip away at laws protecting Unions. This has added up to the lowest membership in quite some time. This last push, however, might be the final straw. Of late, Business has been dropping benefits, the disparity in pay is wildly skewing upward, and layoffs have been occurring while companies are showing massive profit.

All this makes for a ripe environment for Unions to thrive.

Didn't you or most on the left say that because of the tea party the republicans will never win another election?

 

[kwc57]

What I find the most amusing throughout all of this is that liberals actually believe they have a place at the table of discussion. Liberals lost HUGE in November and 2012 is around the corner.

So when the Republicans lost big, but thought they should have a seat at the table and Obama told them to sit in the backseat, because the Dems were driving now, you were fine with that? Whoever wins gets to ignore the other side? I already know the answer, I'm just wondering if you remember it differently from me. Politics is never a winner takes all game. Each side likes to think it is, but it isn't. Neither side is going anywhere and the voters swing from one side to the other because the current "winner" always over reaches.

 

[Missourian]

Missourian, I agree with almost everything you said there. The one thing I might have to dissent on is the idea that Unions should be concerned with all workers, and that nobody wants to Unionize. In fact, we seem to be seeing a rise in the number of Professional Unions (as compared to Labor Unions) out there these days.

While I agree that the Unions should not be looking to stifle, abuse, or otherwise negatively impact non-Union workers, I would be exceptionally upset if the Union that I pay dues to came to us and informed us that they were going to be spending money and negotiating time, trying to improve the conditions of individuals who do not pay dues to this Union. I don't want our negotiators in there trying to harm those people, but I don't see any necessity to try and improve their conditions either. Especially not at the expense of Represented workers.

That's not exactly what I meant...I mean Unions should be more inclined to join with non-union in common causes.

For example, NAFTA.

Unions could take a leadership role in the fight against NAFTA.

The non-union workforce is willing to pay their own way in the fight if the Union's would only step up, take the lead, and ask us to be a part of the solution.

It's a win-win...it fosters cooperation and amity between union and non-union while uniting the two in a common cause.

The Unions have the infrastructure, the experience and the organization.

There are several other areas of concern the on which collaboration would be mutually beneficial.

If the Unions extended a hand of friendship to the non-union workforce in regard to these mutual threats, the non-union workers would respond en masse.

 

[Anachronism]

That's not exactly what I meant...I mean Unions should be more inclined to join with non-union in common causes.....

.....If the Unions extended a hand of friendship to the non-union workforce in regard to these mutual threats, the non-union workers would respond en masse.

What you have to remember (and I'm sure you already know) is that these Unions are there to promote the best interests of their members. Now, in a case where they can work with non-Unionized labor forces without endangering the well-being of their own membership, I can agree with you. However, they do have a responsibility to look out for the well-being of their members first and foremost.

 

[PoliticalChic]

That is the attitude that can only arise from the kind of education that has been imposed by left-leaning liberals/progressives.

You imply, whether you reallize it or not, that communism is just a garden variety political philosophy....it is not.

Every one of the totalist thought-and-body control attempts, communism, nazism, fascism, phalangism, progressivism, liberalism, is detrimental to the health of the body politic and the body itself.

You have revealed the depth of your lacunae on this matter.

On what basis are you prepared to have an opinion? Clearly, to be a liberal, one need not have any knowledge.

Revolutions, no matter how well intended, generally are bloodly and filled with peril. Our own resulted in the deaths of millions. They weren't white...so I guess in your book..they don't matter. I've pointed out in other threads that Ghandi's efforts resulted in the deaths of millions as well. Ascribing numbers of deaths to political philosphies only matters if it's global. And in your case..it is not.

There are for you "good" deaths and "bad" deaths..and those are depended on whether you believe in the cause or not.

To compare our revolution, such as it was, to the intentional starvation of millions of men, women and children is beyond insane.
Do you claim that you are unaware of the random and gratuitous slaughter of the bourgeoisie, kulaks, Freemasons and cosmopolitans, and, always, Jews at the hands of the savage communists?

Are you actually claiming that you are unaware that the atrocities of communism were global???


Over one hundrend million deaths. Kangor states that it was over one hundred and forty million.

What a libel, to compare our revolution to the aims and commissions of the communists.

The new morality of the totalists did away with the old-fashioned insistence on distinguishing between the guilty and the innocent.

What an advance, what progress in the search for freedom! Lenin’s orders: “Shoot more professors!” (Berman, “Terror and Liberalism,”p.43)…even Saint-Just had never given such an order! Bolsheviks willingness to put to death random crowds without knowing their political view….why, they were merely following Baudelaire’s directive, ‘In politics, the true saint is the man who uses his whip and kills the people for their own good.” The Atheist Conservative: » The cultivation of evil, the sickness of Europe

You and those others with stunted understanding of the beliefs, and the results of the horrific totalitarian beliefs...even though I have dealt with same time and again, are always astounding.

And yet, in the minds of folks like yourself, there is probably the sense that by mitigating the abominations of the communists, nazis, phalange, fascists, you are making it easier to be a liberal or a progressive.

It would be so much easier to forgive your ignorance if you couldn't read or write.

You should be ashamed of your post.