TEST--- are you a CONSERVATIVE or a LIBERAL????

[antagon]

Antagon, what would you expect to hear from an 'informed, pragmatic conservative' about this healthcare bill?

republican legislators from any era, given this minority position would crack the whip against this bill.

conservative citizens of yore would, however, know what socialism, communism, fascism, marxism and nazism are, and wouldnt have these misnomers as the centerpiece of their dissent.

...

They would when one or more of those ideo/political systems manifests itself even in small ways. And smart people recognize a duck when they see one.

Smart people also understand that such ideo/political systems seldom just go BOOM and suddenly they are there. They generally start out as seemingly innocuous, even benevolent action. No need for alarm. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. Extremist terms are not warranted. The frog doesn't jump out of the pot if you warm the water slowly.

Does the line: "You should have stopped me at the dinner roll." mean anything to you?

there's plenty of nuance amid credibility, man. these folks dont got any of it. is there any GOP left? its a convention of jeebus freaks and johnny-come-lately libertarians, pardon any offense, and these postures cant balance government.

looking at the run-up to the passage of the bill, the democrats are managing their own balance. while tea-partiers undermine the GOP, the democrats are running away with the government. will the GOP show in november? nobody who carries a hardline tparty agenda into a national race will stand a chance.. thats where pragmatism comes in.

i see a movement that has marginalized itself via its politics (and politicians), and by extention is marginalizing the GOP.

some people are happy about this. sealybobo or whoever; i am disappointed.

if there was a balance in the legislature, this government would be great by my standard.

i liken it to an otherwise well behaved dog licking all over your face because youre on the floor with your hands tied behind your back.

 

[Meister]

They won't have to cut spending once they pass a Value Added Tax (VAT) just like all the civilized countries in Europe do. This will add probably 13-20% on everything we buy. Yes, the good times are coming with this deficit issue.

our tax system already works like a VAT, but by incentivizing expenditure, rather than taxing it directly.

deductions anyone?

I have an idea your going to be enlighted on a VAT, compared to our already existing tax system, Antagon. It will be an addition to, and not replace the tax system. We have a massive debt that will have to be dealt with.

 

[Immanuel]

Note to Maple:

Can you post this at least another seven times. That'll make the nice round number of 100 - the number of times this has been posted.

BTW, this should have been in the humour or flame zone....

It must be a fairly true assessment, otherwise you as a FLAMING LIBERAL would not be bothered by it. It bothers you, doesn't it???

Are you on drugs?

If I insult you and say mean things about you, you wouldn't be upset unless everything I say is true?

Ok then.

You're a serial dog rapist who spends his free time trying to poison children and blame the communists.

Remember if you get upset it must be true!

Forgive me Father for I have sinned, but this is only a joke.

It is funny simply because it "rings" true. Sure, it pokes fun at liberals, but then it is a far stretch from reality. The liberal side IS exaggerated, but that is what makes it funny. I've laughed at many jokes berating conservative ideas that I support.

It is just a joke and it is not reality.

You're young, it is only the end of March... lighten up and have a little bit of fun for the next nine months.

Immie

 

[antagon]

They won't have to cut spending once they pass a Value Added Tax (VAT) just like all the civilized countries in Europe do. This will add probably 13-20% on everything we buy. Yes, the good times are coming with this deficit issue.

our tax system already works like a VAT, but by incentivizing expenditure, rather than taxing it directly.

deductions anyone?

I have an idea your going to be enlighted on a VAT, compared to our already existing tax system, Antagon. It will be an addition to, and not replace the tax system. We have a massive debt that will have to be dealt with.

have you considered the limitations the feds have on taxing transactions? some stuff like cigs and gas can get shuffled under the comm. clause rug because theyre nationally regulated. would be pretty tough to do one like the EU without an amendment.

the irs has, instead, consistently constrained tax shelter for businesses toward a VAT-style pass the buck instant deduction mechanism. special taxes and excises are the wave of the future, indications are... at least this government loves that. the fed is still convinced that smoke and mirrors will suffice for the growing debt.

 

[Thinman]

How would you label a government that can tell its' citizens that they must purchase a product or service?

Now that this administration has established a precedent, what product or service comes next?

america?

welcome to the club, man. dunno about you but ive been purchasing retirement insurance, retirement/incapacity medical coverage, workers comp, corporate charters, licenses, auto insurance, liability insurance, testing fees, continuing education.. all sorts of things i'd rather wing it without.

I don't even know what some of these are. Corporate charters? Is this something your government mandates?

Retirement insurance, I assume is a 401K or IRA with a possible company match or you may mean Social Security, and Medicare tax. Both of these must be deducted if you work and earn income, but, there is no mandate. There is no line on your tax return that says, "Enter $2500 on line 65 if you are not covered with a minimally acceptable health insurance plan."

Workers comp is paid by your employer.

Auto insurance is required only if you wish to drive.

The only thing you mentioned that comes close to a mandate is Social Security & Medicare tax. The government will deduct this, if you work for someone other than yourself.

Suppose, 3 years down the road, congress passes a bill that mandates everyone to pay an additional $1000 per year to support green energy companies that can't make it on their own. Or government mandates (pick a dollar amount) to pay campaign expenses for politicians.

There is no end to it. We would have to trust our elected politicians to do the right thing and not pull this sort of stuff. I would rather that we never give the authority to government to mandate a product or service.

 

[antagon]

How would you label a government that can tell its' citizens that they must purchase a product or service?

Now that this administration has established a precedent, what product or service comes next?

america?

welcome to the club, man. dunno about you but ive been purchasing retirement insurance, retirement/incapacity medical coverage, workers comp, corporate charters, licenses, auto insurance, liability insurance, testing fees, continuing education.. all sorts of things i'd rather wing it without.

I don't even know what some of these are. Corporate charters? Is this something your government mandates?

Retirement insurance, I assume is a 401K or IRA with a possible company match or you may mean Social Security, and Medicare tax. Both of these must be deducted if you work and earn income, but, there is no mandate. There is no line on your tax return that says, "Enter $2500 on line 65 if you are not covered with a minimally acceptable health insurance plan."

Workers comp is paid by your employer.

Auto insurance is required only if you wish to drive.

The only thing you mentioned that comes close to a mandate is Social Security & Medicare tax. The government will deduct this, if you work for someone other than yourself.

Suppose, 3 years down the road, congress passes a bill that mandates everyone to pay an additional $1000 per year to support green energy companies that can't make it on their own. Or government mandates (pick a dollar amount) to pay campaign expenses for politicians.

There is no end to it. We would have to trust our elected politicians to do the right thing and not pull this sort of stuff. I would rather that we never give the authority to government to mandate a product or service.

i have some employees. im laden with all that shit by virtue of how i make my living. if i quit, i'll be on the streets and would probably end up in jail-welfare. then my balls are really in the mitt.

the issue of health is from the rock/hard place scenario presented by the hypocratic oath, and the government's desire to have medical infrastructure within our coasts. we have a revolutionary private system, which is great, however, the solvency of the insurance component is dependent, like a ponzi scheme, on new, low-risk participation.

when hmo's got the thumb up originally in '73, this requirement was not foreign to legislators. there was an employer mandate then. now baby-boomers are getting old, and healthfulness in the american lifestyle has been compromised, my guess is the private insurers who lobbied the bill went back to the well.

i dont see there being an alternative route to an additional mandate... maybe by mandating that public insureds use the private systems, like medicare buying from aetna. that sounds republican... expensive too.

as for tort reforms and all that... has nothing to do with what the private industry impetus that brought the issue to the docket in the first place. now, everyone on both sides are convinced that 'america wants reform', but with most of us covered, im convinced that that angst was seeded by the private interests at play and the politicians making waves over how.

the lobbies approached the democrats. no coincidence it was a non-issue among republicans and their base until they had to showdown with the opposition after he primaries.

 

[Foxfyre]

republican legislators from any era, given this minority position would crack the whip against this bill.

conservative citizens of yore would, however, know what socialism, communism, fascism, marxism and nazism are, and wouldnt have these misnomers as the centerpiece of their dissent.

...

They would when one or more of those ideo/political systems manifests itself even in small ways. And smart people recognize a duck when they see one.

Smart people also understand that such ideo/political systems seldom just go BOOM and suddenly they are there. They generally start out as seemingly innocuous, even benevolent action. No need for alarm. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. Extremist terms are not warranted. The frog doesn't jump out of the pot if you warm the water slowly.

Does the line: "You should have stopped me at the dinner roll." mean anything to you?

there's plenty of nuance amid credibility, man. these folks dont got any of it. is there any GOP left? its a convention of jeebus freaks and johnny-come-lately libertarians, pardon any offense, and these postures cant balance government.

looking at the run-up to the passage of the bill, the democrats are managing their own balance. while tea-partiers undermine the GOP, the democrats are running away with the government. will the GOP show in november? nobody who carries a hardline tparty agenda into a national race will stand a chance.. thats where pragmatism comes in.

i see a movement that has marginalized itself via its politics (and politicians), and by extention is marginalizing the GOP.

some people are happy about this. sealybobo or whoever; i am disappointed.

if there was a balance in the legislature, this government would be great by my standard.

i liken it to an otherwise well behaved dog licking all over your face because youre on the floor with your hands tied behind your back.

Now I'm suspecting that you are a shill for the Democratic Party. I suspect 'those people' are 'getting it' far more than you are able to see.

The GOP may very well self-destruct but it will be self-destruction and not something the Tea Partiers and Tax Protest groups are doing.

It was the GOP's sharp swerve to the left with ever bigger, more expensive, more intrusive, and more irresponsible government that cost them their majority in 2006. Have they learned their lesson? I don't know. Some certainly have not, and we hope those will lose by landslides in the primaries leading up to the 2010 general election.

The GOP is holding together with more unity than I've seen in awhile, but that unity will likely not hold up through the immigration debate that will be even more critical than the healthcare debate. And Tax & Trade will be right on the heels and I have no confidence that all the Republicans have their heads on straight about that either.

The way I see it, to paraphrase one popular pundit recently, it simply isn't good enough to not suck as much as the other side sucks.

The Tea Partiers and Tax Protest groups fully understand that which is why there is no connection between them and the GOP and any other party.

And however much people like you choose to hold them in contempt, they could be our last hope to hold our magnificent republic together.

 

[antagon]

people going to work will hold the republic together. little/nothing to do with the government or protesters. what's a shill?

 

[Thinman]

america?

welcome to the club, man. dunno about you but ive been purchasing retirement insurance, retirement/incapacity medical coverage, workers comp, corporate charters, licenses, auto insurance, liability insurance, testing fees, continuing education.. all sorts of things i'd rather wing it without.

I don't even know what some of these are. Corporate charters? Is this something your government mandates?

Retirement insurance, I assume is a 401K or IRA with a possible company match or you may mean Social Security, and Medicare tax. Both of these must be deducted if you work and earn income, but, there is no mandate. There is no line on your tax return that says, "Enter $2500 on line 65 if you are not covered with a minimally acceptable health insurance plan."

Workers comp is paid by your employer.

Auto insurance is required only if you wish to drive.

The only thing you mentioned that comes close to a mandate is Social Security & Medicare tax. The government will deduct this, if you work for someone other than yourself.

Suppose, 3 years down the road, congress passes a bill that mandates everyone to pay an additional $1000 per year to support green energy companies that can't make it on their own. Or government mandates (pick a dollar amount) to pay campaign expenses for politicians.

There is no end to it. We would have to trust our elected politicians to do the right thing and not pull this sort of stuff. I would rather that we never give the authority to government to mandate a product or service.

i have some employees. im laden with all that shit by virtue of how i make my living. if i quit, i'll be on the streets and would probably end up in jail-welfare. then my balls are really in the mitt.

the issue of health is from the rock/hard place scenario presented by the hypocratic oath, and the government's desire to have medical infrastructure within our coasts. we have a revolutionary private system, which is great, however, the solvency of the insurance component is dependent, like a ponzi scheme, on new, low-risk participation.

when hmo's got the thumb up originally in '73, this requirement was not foreign to legislators. there was an employer mandate then. now baby-boomers are getting old, and healthfulness in the american lifestyle has been compromised, my guess is the private insurers who lobbied the bill went back to the well.

i dont see there being an alternative route to an additional mandate... maybe by mandating that public insureds use the private systems, like medicare buying from aetna. that sounds republican... expensive too.

as for tort reforms and all that... has nothing to do with what the private industry impetus that brought the issue to the docket in the first place. now, everyone on both sides are convinced that 'america wants reform', but with most of us covered, im convinced that that angst was seeded by the private interests at play and the politicians making waves over how.

the lobbies approached the democrats. no coincidence it was a non-issue among republicans and their base until they had to showdown with the opposition after he primaries.

Sounds like you have given this a lot of thought and from a different perspective than mine.

I'm 67 years old and I have health insurance through the company where I work. I have been to the doctor 3 times in my adult life all, for employment physicals. I was once hospitalized for a burst appendix. If my company did not provide health insurance, I personally, would not purchase it.

There are many things that led Americans to the point where they go to the doctor for every scratch and twitch. Drug companies fuel this behavior, playing on the paranoia of many Americans and developing a drug for everything you can imagine. Our, hurry up, stress filled, fast food eating lifestyle has also contributed.

People need to take responsibility for there own health. You should not farm that out to drug companies or Doctors or politicians. It's almost like people think, "I've got health care insurance, I don't need to worry."

There is nothing we can do to force people to take responsibility for their health and well being, but we can prevent government from forcing health care upon us by repealing this law.

 

[Maple]

They won't have to cut spending once they pass a Value Added Tax (VAT) just like all the civilized countries in Europe do. This will add probably 13-20% on everything we buy. Yes, the good times are coming with this deficit issue.

Yep- that's coming to, Krauthammer said that Obama will have to introduce that next April or go off a cliff with his new health care overhaul.

Did you happen to see that AT+T is losing 1 billiion this year, Verizon is telling their employee's that their premiums are going up, that John Deare, Catapillar and a host of other corporations are having to adjust, cut benefits, jobs, etc to accommodate Obama care.

This is just starting, with the CPA's, CEO's ( the smart people) who are actually reading this monstrocity and adjusting to it are telling us already. And to think no-one will see the benefit from any of this for four years. Whopppeeeeeeeee!!!

 

[Foxfyre]

people going to work will hold the republic together. little/nothing to do with the government or protesters. what's a shill?

Sorry. I was in a grumpy spell this afternoon and should not have suggested you are a shill. I take that back.

A 'shill', however, is technically: "One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle." (Free Online Dictionary) These days it is more likely to refer to those who are advocates for something but don't admit that they are plugging it. And some (incorrectly in my opinion) just use the terms 'shill' and 'advocate' synonymously.

I don't think it is a simple as people going to work though. That would do wonders for the economy but will not necessary slow the encroachment of big government into every area of our lives and taking more and more of the means by which we live them. And if those jobs are government jobs, it will only make matters worse for the long haul.

 

[antagon]

Sounds like you have given this a lot of thought and from a different perspective than mine.

I'm 67 years old and I have health insurance through the company where I work. I have been to the doctor 3 times in my adult life all, for employment physicals. I was once hospitalized for a burst appendix. If my company did not provide health insurance, I personally, would not purchase it.

There are many things that led Americans to the point where they go to the doctor for every scratch and twitch. Drug companies fuel this behavior, playing on the paranoia of many Americans and developing a drug for everything you can imagine. Our, hurry up, stress filled, fast food eating lifestyle has also contributed.

People need to take responsibility for there own health. You should not farm that out to drug companies or Doctors or politicians. It's almost like people think, "I've got health care insurance, I don't need to worry."

There is nothing we can do to force people to take responsibility for their health and well being, but we can prevent government from forcing health care upon us by repealing this law.

there are some different perspectives behind the scenes. a big-league liberal would think this is all about caring for people and improving our health as a nation. on the other side, its the coming of a socialist reich. as an independent semi-cynic, i look for where the marionette strings lead... for this bill, its not doctors, patients, or government expansion as much as it is the coffers and sustainability of the hmo's. they put up the bux for this, where there werent any in the 90s with the clintons' populist big-gov approach.

youre right, health care is not the same as health. as a result of additional coverage, the apparent healthfulness of the nation will likely decline, because if you go to the doctor, theyll find something wrong with you at considerably higher rates than if you dont make a practice of rushing to a doc and getting pills. healthy lifestyles will probably decline in lieu of doctors visits... but there i go being cynical again.

 

[antagon]

people going to work will hold the republic together. little/nothing to do with the government or protesters. what's a shill?

Sorry. I was in a grumpy spell this afternoon and should not have suggested you are a shill. I take that back.

A 'shill', however, is technically: "One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle." (Free Online Dictionary) These days it is more likely to refer to those who are advocates for something but don't admit that they are plugging it. And some (incorrectly in my opinion) just use the terms 'shill' and 'advocate' synonymously.

I don't think it is a simple as people going to work though. That would do wonders for the economy but will not necessary slow the encroachment of big government into every area of our lives and taking more and more of the means by which we live them. And if those jobs are government jobs, it will only make matters worse for the long haul.

nah. not a shill or anything. i do have a distaste for what's happened with the GOP. as you can tell ive got an idealized version of the party from my childhood, and think that the party has lost its way. i think that campaign finance reform is to blame. it precipitated a capitulation to social/christian conservatism for their populist kick in the elections. their agenda overshadowed that of the republicans of old: fiscal conservative social libertarians.

the first warning were the republicans who couldnt tie hw's tax increase to fiscal conservatism. his defeat in '92 began a change in the party toward pandering to tax-cut-conservatives... at that point, that's all that the party felt was needed in econ policy. the tenets of the contract with america were great, the contents were a bit less great, and the follow-through was appalling.

when one considers the carte-blanch mandate neocons had to pursue a BBAmendment (part of the contract) if they wanted to, it is absolutely ridiculous that lil bush and the GOP-controlled legislature became the biggest expansionist fiscally-inverted government of all time.

i hate pandering politicians. it was gore's and kerry's biggest problem. mccain was carrying that torch in this last election. sarah palin is the case in point, a trend which continues. hard-line tparty politics is ridiculous and economically infeasible. the GOP is again pandering to these principles hoping to get votes. they could choose to inform people like reagan had in '80, but, 'hell why not get sarah to jabber at them. just make sure they can see my ass grinning behind her in the press-op.'

you dont need to be a shill to dislike the new gop. if you are a 'wall-street republican' from the 80s, you wont come close to this bullshit. again with the jesus-freak, constitutional hack, birther, hillbilly, tax-cut-conservative, 16th amendment abolitionist, highschool government flunky appeal. the GOP had too much of that since 2000. the bush/congress performance following that flushed out the upper IQs from the party's average over the 6 years to follow.

the tparty is a concentration of this demographic... all but the j-freaks. its the opposite of what i endorse. yes, that does push me closer to the left, but theyre the party with the fiscal conservative track-record since clinton. my biggest issue is n.pelosi, and her brand, who is more a carter-era dem like kerry. the other side of the aisle has changed their tune up since the 80s, but thats a different essay.

youre right, it wont just be the private grind that will discipline government. the better we do, the more fuel we throw on the fire. ol' wagner's law. i dont, however, share the belief that the republic is under duress. i just think were in a recession/recovery, and people are griping.

 

[SFC Ollie]

They won't have to cut spending once they pass a Value Added Tax (VAT) just like all the civilized countries in Europe do. This will add probably 13-20% on everything we buy. Yes, the good times are coming with this deficit issue.

Yep- that's coming to, Krauthammer said that Obama will have to introduce that next April or go off a cliff with his new health care overhaul.

Did you happen to see that AT+T is losing 1 billiion this year, Verizon is telling their employee's that their premiums are going up, that John Deare, Catapillar and a host of other corporations are having to adjust, cut benefits, jobs, etc to accommodate Obama care.

This is just starting, with the CPA's, CEO's ( the smart people) who are actually reading this monstrocity and adjusting to it are telling us already. And to think no-one will see the benefit from any of this for four years. Whopppeeeeeeeee!!!

Don't forget all the new state and local taxes that are being added to cover their parts of it and to offset the loss of revenue from sales taxes.

 

[saveliberty]

They won't have to cut spending once they pass a Value Added Tax (VAT) just like all the civilized countries in Europe do. This will add probably 13-20% on everything we buy. Yes, the good times are coming with this deficit issue.

Yep- that's coming to, Krauthammer said that Obama will have to introduce that next April or go off a cliff with his new health care overhaul.

Did you happen to see that AT+T is losing 1 billiion this year, Verizon is telling their employee's that their premiums are going up, that John Deare, Catapillar and a host of other corporations are having to adjust, cut benefits, jobs, etc to accommodate Obama care.

This is just starting, with the CPA's, CEO's ( the smart people) who are actually reading this monstrocity and adjusting to it are telling us already. And to think no-one will see the benefit from any of this for four years. Whopppeeeeeeeee!!!

Thanks Maple, I was going to post that news as well. It begs the question who really pays for Obamacare? The Democrats would have you believe it is the rich who have way too much money. In reality it is every American. AT&T cuts middle class jobs which hurts us and when these companies rise their prices to cover the premium increases, who pays that? ALL OF US. Anyone got the stats on how many people carry health insurance while unemployed? I would guess that number is pretty small after two months out of work.

 

[saveliberty]

Here is an unscientific report:

The result has been a doubling of enrollments, according to an analysis by Hewitt Associates, a human resources consulting firm. From March through June, the firm found monthly enrollment rates for eligible workers averaged 38%. It was only 19% for the period from September 2008 through February 2009. The analysis was based on enrollment rates at 200 large U.S. companies with 8 million employees.

Unemployed workers flock to COBRA - ABC News

 

[antagon]

They won't have to cut spending once they pass a Value Added Tax (VAT) just like all the civilized countries in Europe do. This will add probably 13-20% on everything we buy. Yes, the good times are coming with this deficit issue.

Yep- that's coming to, Krauthammer said that Obama will have to introduce that next April or go off a cliff with his new health care overhaul.

Did you happen to see that AT+T is losing 1 billiion this year, Verizon is telling their employee's that their premiums are going up, that John Deare, Catapillar and a host of other corporations are having to adjust, cut benefits, jobs, etc to accommodate Obama care.

This is just starting, with the CPA's, CEO's ( the smart people) who are actually reading this monstrocity and adjusting to it are telling us already. And to think no-one will see the benefit from any of this for four years. Whopppeeeeeeeee!!!

Thanks Maple, I was going to post that news as well. It begs the question who really pays for Obamacare? The Democrats would have you believe it is the rich who have way too much money. In reality it is every American. AT&T cuts middle class jobs which hurts us and when these companies rise their prices to cover the premium increases, who pays that? ALL OF US. Anyone got the stats on how many people carry health insurance while unemployed? I would guess that number is pretty small after two months out of work.

you guys are trying to attribute job losses to the legislation already? how credible does that leave your judgment? is it safe to assume that you guys hadnt noticed the recession which has lended to our 10% unemployment? does that not indicate to you guys that as economic sectors shrink, maybe employers would respond with layoffs?

some folks, like maple, will beat a pundit's drum on everything and parrot krauthammer. some folks can recognize that for what it is and form an independent opinion. others hear the drum and start to beat their own, no matter how stupid the logical connections being presented.

 

[Meister]

our tax system already works like a VAT, but by incentivizing expenditure, rather than taxing it directly.

deductions anyone?

I have an idea your going to be enlighted on a VAT, compared to our already existing tax system, Antagon. It will be an addition to, and not replace the tax system. We have a massive debt that will have to be dealt with.

have you considered the limitations the feds have on taxing transactions? some stuff like cigs and gas can get shuffled under the comm. clause rug because theyre nationally regulated. would be pretty tough to do one like the EU without an amendment.

the irs has, instead, consistently constrained tax shelter for businesses toward a VAT-style pass the buck instant deduction mechanism. special taxes and excises are the wave of the future, indications are... at least this government loves that. the fed is still convinced that smoke and mirrors will suffice for the growing debt.

There is no such things as limiting the feds any longer....haven't you noticed?
The one thing about smoke and mirrors is that the smoke eventually dissipates and leaving the mirror exposed.

 

[antagon]

I have an idea your going to be enlighted on a VAT...

have you considered the limitations the feds have on taxing transactions?...the fed is still convinced that smoke and mirrors will suffice for the growing debt.

There is no such things as limiting the feds any longer....haven't you noticed?
The one thing about smoke and mirrors is that the smoke eventually dissipates and leaving the mirror exposed.

when the smoke dissipates is when the chairman quits and writes an i told you so book.

i gather from maple that krauthammer seeded the VAT hysteria... a grain of salt there. he's more pressed, it seems, to say something to inspire fear, than taking any time to consider the implications and the trends in taxation.

heres some words im willing to swallow:

there will have to be a constitutional amendment to rock an across the board VAT in the US, if that goes far enough. because of that, despite you thinking that the constitution doesnt have any power anymore, legislators will seek an alternative.

obama/congress wont try a VAT out of concern for the economy and fear over popularity.

this admin's tax policy will continue to target the 'other guy' who big majorities of people won't empathize with - high earners, big corps looking for government intervention, willfully uninsured, companies producing tens of thousands in waste, etc. these are the taxes that dont take significant amounts of votes from the rolls. if there's anything about this admin that they shine with, it is campaigning.

i dont know how kraut.. defended his conjecture that we were galloping toward adopting a VAT, but he couldnt have considered any of the above, and probably has no reason to, with maple and the like believing everything he says.

 

[JakeStarkey]

They would when one or more of those ideo/political systems manifests itself even in small ways. And smart people recognize a duck when they see one.

Smart people also understand that such ideo/political systems seldom just go BOOM and suddenly they are there. They generally start out as seemingly innocuous, even benevolent action. No need for alarm. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. Extremist terms are not warranted. The frog doesn't jump out of the pot if you warm the water slowly.

Does the line: "You should have stopped me at the dinner roll." mean anything to you?

there's plenty of nuance amid credibility, man. these folks dont got any of it. is there any GOP left? its a convention of jeebus freaks and johnny-come-lately libertarians, pardon any offense, and these postures cant balance government.

looking at the run-up to the passage of the bill, the democrats are managing their own balance. while tea-partiers undermine the GOP, the democrats are running away with the government. will the GOP show in november? nobody who carries a hardline tparty agenda into a national race will stand a chance.. thats where pragmatism comes in.

i see a movement that has marginalized itself via its politics (and politicians), and by extention is marginalizing the GOP.

some people are happy about this. sealybobo or whoever; i am disappointed.

if there was a balance in the legislature, this government would be great by my standard.

i liken it to an otherwise well behaved dog licking all over your face because youre on the floor with your hands tied behind your back.

Now I'm suspecting that you are a shill for the Democratic Party. I suspect 'those people' are 'getting it' far more than you are able to see.

The GOP may very well self-destruct but it will be self-destruction and not something the Tea Partiers and Tax Protest groups are doing.

It was the GOP's sharp swerve to the left with ever bigger, more expensive, more intrusive, and more irresponsible government that cost them their majority in 2006. Have they learned their lesson? I don't know. Some certainly have not, and we hope those will lose by landslides in the primaries leading up to the 2010 general election.

The GOP is holding together with more unity than I've seen in awhile, but that unity will likely not hold up through the immigration debate that will be even more critical than the healthcare debate. And Tax & Trade will be right on the heels and I have no confidence that all the Republicans have their heads on straight about that either.

The way I see it, to paraphrase one popular pundit recently, it simply isn't good enough to not suck as much as the other side sucks.

The Tea Partiers and Tax Protest groups fully understand that which is why there is no connection between them and the GOP and any other party.

And however much people like you choose to hold them in contempt, they could be our last hope to hold our magnificent republic together.

The third paragraph is the fail here. That had nothing to do with the implosion. The GOP lost because it had not delivered on its promises to its most prominent group, had messed Katrina relief along with the state and local governments, scared the old folks with SS "reform" threats, Tom DeLay and his idiocies, so forth and so on. Oh, did I mention the absolutement mismanagement of winning the peace in Iraq.

FF, only the far right believes your nonsense. I am not even sure Charles Krauthammer really believes such nonsense.

And nothing the GOP has offered in response so far to Obamagovernment is going to work this fall. "Repeal and replace"? The Dems are slavering at defending their legislation.

Either the GOP offers constructive solutions, or it will slide into the harbor with the Tea Party folks this fall. Mass delusions by the reactionaries.