Terrorist Aquited on over 200 counts.

[Immanuel]

Even if the appeal is lost, he will probably be pardoned by Obama at the end of his term or he might issue yet another Executive Order - in the name of "goodwill," "peaceful agreement" or some other BS.

These people should not be tried in a civilian court by any stretch of the imagination. These cases should be tried in a military tribunal. Period.

Based upon your statements, I am not sure what difference it would make if he were tried by a military tribunal or in a civilian court. Either way Obama can pardon him. Unless you meant that if he were tried by a military tribunal the sentence could and would be a swift death penalty enacted before Obama could pardon him.

Immie

 

[Intense]

How many Guantanamo Graduates have since raised Arms against us?

This is an old Story.


Prior to his release in December, Abdul Hafiz was Prisoner Number 1030 at Guantanamo Bay. Now, less than four months later, he's back home in Afghanistan and working for the Taliban -- just the latest of more than 100 released detainees who have returned to terrorism, according to the Pentagon.

Hafiz, suspected in the March 2003 kidnapping and murder of an International Red Cross worker, was the "Taliban head of all Madrassas ... responsible for recruiting and sending young men to fight for the Taliban," according to U.S. government memos. He was said to have maintained contacts for Mullah Mohammad Omar, the leader of the Taliban of Afghanistan, and to have admitted to participating in jihad against the Soviets.

But despite the list of charges against him, the U.S. government transferred Hafiz to his home country in December. And now, a senior U.S. official tells Fox News, he is back on the battlefield. According to a published report, Hafiz has been appointed by Mullah Omar to oversee ransom demands for kidnapping victims and to coordinate with nongovernment-aid organizations operating in the Taliban's areas of influence.

More Guantanamo Detainees Are Returning to Terror Upon Release - FoxNews.com

 

[Immanuel]

Alleged Al-Qaeda terrorist Ahmed Ghailani acquitted of all but one charge in embassy bombing trial

The first civilian trial of a Guantanamo detainee ended in disarray Wednesday with an alleged Al Qaeda operative convicted on only a single conspiracy count the African embassy bombing trial.


I told you that the Military courts should handle these cases.

Evidence and witnesses were inadmissible because they were acquired illegally. When the US tortures somebody, and yes waterboarding is torture, it has not only compromised the principles they claim to uphold, such as justice and peace, but the US has failed, by their own legal standards, of convicting a horrible suspect.

The real mistake was the torture, not the fact it is a civilian case and not a military tribunal.

Water Boarding is torture according to who? And none of the reports i have seen said he was water boarded. All they say is he held in a secret CIA prison and advanced interrogation was used.

Can anyone deny this guy is actually not a terrorist?

You know that I generally agree with you, but in this case I do not.

Also, I want to ask you to look at your question:

Water Boarding is torture according to who?

Now, let me ask, who is it that says water boarding is not torture? Why, the people who use it to accomplish their goals, of course.

Would you ask a serial killer if killing a human being is murder? No, I don't think you would.

Would you ask a burglar if breaking and entering is wrong? No, you would not.

Then why would you ask the people that use water boarding as a means of acquiring information if their tactics were torturous or not?

Immie

 

[JBeukema]

Easy to overturn a conviction on some bullshit technicality, and then he walks free because the other charges are now gone. Should never have been allowed.

A fine indictment of the courts and the rule of law. Clearly, we must return to the days when noone walked free- just add more stones until they confess.


God will prevent the innocent from burning!

I may actually share more of your concerns than you think. Are remedies are different. This Man should spend the rest of his life behind bars. He is not an Innocent, by any stretch.

A man's guilt or innocence in such matters is to be determined in a court of law.

This man was found guilty. Crying about 'evidence' that very well might have not been heard in a military tribunal that would have quite possibly given a softer sentence is just a lame attempt to avoid the issues surrounding torture, both ethically and in terms of the reliability of coerced confessions.

 

[JBeukema]

Criminal Courts Are Tougher on Terrorists than Military Detention

 

[Meister]

278 counts dropped 1 count stuck...yeah, civilian courts are a real bitch.

 

[JBeukema]

Alleged Al-Qaeda terrorist Ahmed Ghailani acquitted of all but one charge in embassy bombing trial

The first civilian trial of a Guantanamo detainee ended in disarray Wednesday with an alleged Al Qaeda operative convicted on only a single conspiracy count the African embassy bombing trial.


I told you that the Military courts should handle these cases.

Evidence and witnesses were inadmissible because they were acquired illegally. When the US tortures somebody, and yes waterboarding is torture, it has not only compromised the principles they claim to uphold, such as justice and peace, but the US has failed, by their own legal standards, of convicting a horrible suspect.

The real mistake was the torture, not the fact it is a civilian case and not a military tribunal.

Water Boarding is torture according to who?

The Washington Post runs a front-page photo of a US soldier supervising the waterboarding of a captured North Vietnamese soldier. The caption says the technique induced “a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk.” Because of the photo, the US Army initiates an investigation, and the soldier is court-martialed and convicted of torturing a prisoner. [National Public Radio, 11/3/2007]

January 21, 1968: US Soldier Convicted of Waterboarding North Vietnamese Prisoner

Can anyone deny this guy is actually not a terrorist?

Yes, I deny that he's not a terrorist. I think it's safe to say most people would feel confident saying he's a terrorist.

 

[JBeukema]

How many Guantanamo Graduates have since raised Arms against us?

This is an old Story.


Prior to his release in December, Abdul Hafiz was Prisoner Number 1030 at Guantanamo Bay. Now, less than four months later, he's back home in Afghanistan and working for the Taliban -- just the latest of more than 100 released detainees who have returned to terrorism, according to the Pentagon.

Hafiz, suspected in the March 2003 kidnapping and murder of an International Red Cross worker, was the "Taliban head of all Madrassas ... responsible for recruiting and sending young men to fight for the Taliban," according to U.S. government memos. He was said to have maintained contacts for Mullah Mohammad Omar, the leader of the Taliban of Afghanistan, and to have admitted to participating in jihad against the Soviets.

But despite the list of charges against him, the U.S. government transferred Hafiz to his home country in December. And now, a senior U.S. official tells Fox News, he is back on the battlefield. According to a published report, Hafiz has been appointed by Mullah Omar to oversee ransom demands for kidnapping victims and to coordinate with nongovernment-aid organizations operating in the Taliban's areas of influence.

More Guantanamo Detainees Are Returning to Terror Upon Release - FoxNews.com

How many became our enemies because of how they were treated?

How many others heard their tales and took up arms against us?

 

[Meister]

How many Guantanamo Graduates have since raised Arms against us?

This is an old Story.


Prior to his release in December, Abdul Hafiz was Prisoner Number 1030 at Guantanamo Bay. Now, less than four months later, he's back home in Afghanistan and working for the Taliban -- just the latest of more than 100 released detainees who have returned to terrorism, according to the Pentagon.

Hafiz, suspected in the March 2003 kidnapping and murder of an International Red Cross worker, was the "Taliban head of all Madrassas ... responsible for recruiting and sending young men to fight for the Taliban," according to U.S. government memos. He was said to have maintained contacts for Mullah Mohammad Omar, the leader of the Taliban of Afghanistan, and to have admitted to participating in jihad against the Soviets.

But despite the list of charges against him, the U.S. government transferred Hafiz to his home country in December. And now, a senior U.S. official tells Fox News, he is back on the battlefield. According to a published report, Hafiz has been appointed by Mullah Omar to oversee ransom demands for kidnapping victims and to coordinate with nongovernment-aid organizations operating in the Taliban's areas of influence.

More Guantanamo Detainees Are Returning to Terror Upon Release - FoxNews.com

How many became our enemies because of how they were treated?

How many others heard their tales and took up arms against us?

Could you post a link so I won't be on the edge of my seat ?

 

[SFC Ollie]

Evidence and witnesses were inadmissible because they were acquired illegally. When the US tortures somebody, and yes waterboarding is torture, it has not only compromised the principles they claim to uphold, such as justice and peace, but the US has failed, by their own legal standards, of convicting a horrible suspect.

The real mistake was the torture, not the fact it is a civilian case and not a military tribunal.

Water Boarding is torture according to who? And none of the reports i have seen said he was water boarded. All they say is he held in a secret CIA prison and advanced interrogation was used.

Can anyone deny this guy is actually not a terrorist?

You know that I generally agree with you, but in this case I do not.

Also, I want to ask you to look at your question:

Water Boarding is torture according to who?

Now, let me ask, who is it that says water boarding is not torture? Why, the people who use it to accomplish their goals, of course.

Would you ask a serial killer if killing a human being is murder? No, I don't think you would.

Would you ask a burglar if breaking and entering is wrong? No, you would not.

Then why would you ask the people that use water boarding as a means of acquiring information if their tactics were torturous or not?

Immie

I don't really want to get into this here, but the water boarding we used in advanced interrogations and in our own training is not the same water torture that was used by the Japanese or that was used in Vietnam. So it is my opinion that we do not torture our own troops so the method we used cannot be torture. But again, I can be wrong.

 

[JBeukema]

it is my opinion that we do not torture our own troops

Then neither did the japanese. The point of waterboarding our troops in SERE training is so they know just what to expect and how to make it through it. Same reason they crawl in the mud, wake up in the middle of the night and run, and do everything else they do.

 

[Immanuel]

Water Boarding is torture according to who? And none of the reports i have seen said he was water boarded. All they say is he held in a secret CIA prison and advanced interrogation was used.

Can anyone deny this guy is actually not a terrorist?

You know that I generally agree with you, but in this case I do not.

Also, I want to ask you to look at your question:

Water Boarding is torture according to who?

Now, let me ask, who is it that says water boarding is not torture? Why, the people who use it to accomplish their goals, of course.

Would you ask a serial killer if killing a human being is murder? No, I don't think you would.

Would you ask a burglar if breaking and entering is wrong? No, you would not.

Then why would you ask the people that use water boarding as a means of acquiring information if their tactics were torturous or not?

Immie

I don't really want to get into this here, but the water boarding we used in advanced interrogations and in our own training is not the same water torture that was used by the Japanese or that was used in Vietnam. So it is my opinion that we do not torture our own troops so the method we used cannot be torture. But again, I can be wrong.

My point though is this. Do you ask the person who is using the method whether or not the method he is using is torture? If you do, do you really expect an honest answer?

Meaning, it is the Bush Admin that has told us that water boarding is not torture because they were the ones who were using it. I'm sorry, but I find it damned hard to believe any thing a politician tells me, so, if a politician tells me that water boarding is not torture, I suspect that there is at least a 99.89% chance that water boarding is torture.

See my point now?

Immie

 

[Madeline]

I can't believe some of you.

This guy purchased the TNT that killed 284 people.

This guy was the chief forger for Al Queada.

This guy was one of Bin Ladens personal body guards.

And he walks off with 20 years?

And you people think this is justice?

No, this was a farce and a major fuck up by the Obama team.

Ollie, if all that you claim to know is true, why couldn't the government prove it? Do you really think a NYC jury is less than totally receptive to any sort of facially adequate evidence of terrorism?

BTW, seems to me there is a downside to running these prisoners through a military tribunals, in that it grants the defendants a legitimacy they should not have. These are not POWs, Ollie -- they are murdering fuckwhits in no one's army.

I dun claim to know what should be done but I'm not going to conclude the jury got it wrong unless I begin to hear about evidence that was excluded at trial, other than the testimony of a snitch we had to torture.

 

[Madeline]

Even if the appeal is lost, he will probably be pardoned by Obama at the end of his term or he might issue yet another Executive Order - in the name of "goodwill," "peaceful agreement" or some other BS.

These people should not be tried in a civilian court by any stretch of the imagination. These cases should be tried in a military tribunal. Period.

Why should we remove an entire class of criminals to our military courts as if they were POWs? What is with all this outrage over the procedure used, guys? Do y'all think a military tribunal has a lower standard of proof? If the government could not convict in a criminal court, what makes you think it could do so in a military tribunal?

 

[Madeline]

The case underscores the challenges faced by prosecutors. Judge Lewis Kaplan barred a key witness from testifying because the man's name came to light while Ghailani was held at a CIA camp where suspects reportedly were tortured.

So, basically, you want us to go back to crushing people with stones until they confess?

There's a reason testimony gained by torture isn't accepted in courts of law.

"If this had been before a military tribunal, evidence that was blocked in this case would have been admissable," King was quick to point out.

So, too, if it were a witch trial- which is pretty much what the tribunals amount to.

I find it incredible that a US military tribunal would admit testimony about a confession gained during torture either. Whoever this King guy is, I suspect he's 100% wrong-o on the CMJ. What all y'all seem to be missing here is that however we in the US choose to deal with these fuckwhits is the very BEST we can expect of other nations in dealing with our soldiers and civilians in captivity.

 

[JBeukema]

Don't you get it, Maddie? It says 'Military' in the name- ergo, it's patriotic to support it and treason to voice any objection.

 

[JBeukema]

They cheer over torture and indefinite detainment without charges and wonder why we compare them to the Cheka?

 

[Madeline]

There is a whole lot of outrage and insinuation on this thread that needs explaining.

 

[Trajan]

I feel for the families of the victims.

This filth gets 20 years for killing more than 200 people.

TWO HUNDRED PEOPLE

And with good behavior he's out in 10.

That's not justice, that's a farce.

Now 20 years hardtime in a military prison... That's stone cold justice. When he got outta that in 20 years there wouldn't be much left.

Cry to the people in Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.

Tell it to the women who've lost their children to American bombs.

Double standards: because who needs principles?

ah the old moral relativism card. no thx. Are you seriously making a comparison amonsgt those examples J.?

 

[Sallow]

They cheer over torture and indefinite detainment without charges and wonder why we compare them to the Cheka?

Here's the kicker. If you start down this road..and it doesn't get stopped. Then this will become normal. And when it becomes normal..look forward to it being used on everyone.