Teachers Union Gone Wild

[DaGoose]

More students equal more money so schools wouldn't likely turn students away...as a counter balance...if a school expels the student, then money recieved for that student would be returned...Or keep the current rules in place regarding a students right to an education...If a voucher is valid, then the student must be accepted...

If it is all about the kids, then getting the best teachers is a win win...Those that are coasting or slacking will have to pick their game up...Is that a bad thing? It isn't for the kids.

As far as parent involvement, some parents are too involved and some aren't involved enough...you can't legislate the amount of involvement parents have...Especially now days when so many parents are concerned with being "friends" with their kids as opposed to being parents...I would rather government stay out of familie's lives...But you probably already knew that Goose

On your first point: Let's say that you have a ten school district where two are performing at the top, three in the middle and five below par. You, like everyone else, would take your vouchers and try and get your kids in one of the top two schools, right? Of course, the top two schools would want to remain near the top so if YOU were a Principal and had a choice you would select only the top performing students, right?
Now keep in mind that YOU said that "If a voucher is valid, then the student must be accepted". So tell me how you are going to fit TEN schools of kids into only TWO since a school, according to your rules, will now be FORCED to take on every student that comes knocking?

On your second point: We agree that in order to provide the best in education you have to attract the best teachers. Then why not increase the salaries and benefits to match other professions with the same educational requirements?

On your third point: We are in agreement with doing more to get parents involved in the education system. They should be meeting with teachers, joining PTA, attending school board meetings, etc..

We are also in agreement that government should stay out of peoples lives and decisions.

So I can assume that you support abortion rights, euthanasia rights, Terri Schiavo's husband's case, gays getting married and decriminalization of marijuana? Because face it, every one of these issues are about the government getting involved in the personal lives of its citizens. Right?

 

[Madeline]

Its about the pension system.

When we conservatives talk about "union greed", we are almost exclusively referring to the benefits...Which include pensions. The benefits packages are what is unsustainable...Not the salaries.

The benefit might could have been sustainable if legislators had funded the contributions annually at adequate levels, glew. Instead they shorted these pension funds for years, sometimes decades, so they could fritter away more cash on current expenses and now that the Baby Boomers are about to retire en masse, the whole thing is going to collapse. If these were private pension funds, and not government ones, there'd be some criminal liability for this and I'm not convinced there still shouldn't be.

Your state legislator has been doing exactly what Jimmy Hoffa did that got him convicted and sent to the federal pen, and for the exact same reasons.

 

[Madeline]

The self-proclaimed muckraker behind the ACORN sting and a series of other undercover videos has taken a stab at a New Jersey teachers union.

In his "Teachers Unions Gone Wild" videos, James O'Keefe released unflattering comments made by veteran teacher Alissa Ploshnick at a New Jersey Education Association conference.

The Star-Ledger reports,
Alissa Ploshnick's unintentional starring performance in the "Teachers Unions Gone Wild" video included, among other things, using the "N" word and joking about how hard it is for tenured teachers to be fired. It was all caught on tape at a hotel bar during the weeklong conference in August.

Since the video surfaced, Ploshnick has been suspended from her job as a special education teacher and denied a pay raise, according to The Star-Ledger.

At a time when the discussion over education reform is swirling around teachers unions nationwide, the controversy has a distinctly political edge.

Some education reformers have argued that unions hinder progress by safeguarding ineffective teachers. Union representatives meanwhile respond that reformers are unfairly targeting teachers.

Muckraker James O'Keefe's 'Teachers Unions Gone Wild' Video Stirs N.J. Controversy

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdqQTIQhn5A"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdqQTIQhn5A[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Yt2SwDuhQ4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Yt2SwDuhQ4[/ame]

Ouch.

Your thoughts?

since it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the ACORN "sting" was fabricated

(also giving yet more evidence that some cons are willing to lie, cheat and deceive and most other cons are perfectly willing to BELIEVE the lies and deceptions)

one must take into consideration the strong possibility that this is yet another fabricated con deception

James O'Keefe clearly uses the most despicable methods of "news" gathering available. I'm rather surprised his methods are legal, except I am sure he has a lawyer on speed dial and knows precisely what the line between a crime and legal act is.

Doesn't mean we have to applaud, and to be honest I was a little conflicted about discussing the man's workproduct because of how it was gathered -- but this issue of pensions and unions needs airing.

 

[glew]

So I can assume that you support abortion rights, euthanasia rights, Terri Schiavo's husband's case, gays getting married and decriminalization of marijuana? Because face it, every one of these issues are about the government getting involved in the personal lives of its citizens. Right?

You mean do I think the government should stay out of liberal "golden calf" policies? Yes...Less government is always better...But I must say that a woman who uses abortion as birth control(which 99% are) should burn in hell...It should be up to the family when to pull the plug on grandpa...I could care less if two dudes want to get married...and people who smoke weed are idiots and almost always the last ones to realize it.

Also, I didn't say the voucher idea was perfect, and adjustments would have to be made...but first come first serve seems about fair to me. My feeling is that most students would stick closer to home and it would take time for a school to build a rep...then some planning would have to happen.

 

[DaGoose]

Also, I didn't say the voucher idea was perfect, and adjustments would have to be made...but first come first serve seems about fair to me. My feeling is that most students would stick closer to home and it would take time for a school to build a rep...then some planning would have to happen.

And therein lies the problem. Once vouchers (or any one of a number of suggestions) are mentioned lots of people want to jump on board and say "This is the solution". But once it's broken down and REALLY looked at then flaws are revealed and we find out there really is no "magic bullet".

I will say you nailed the problems right on the head but as NJ is finding out (as well as my state of Illinois) credible solutions are going to be complex and expensive.

 

[glew]

credible solutions are going to be complex and expensive.

With any big change there is problems...I was always taught not to analyze everything to the point of paralysis...Us students are falling behind...that is the biggest problem...Seems I read somewhere that vouchers were being tried and working...I believe in D.C. ...but our president stopped it in what everyone thought was a favor to the teachers unions...

Obama Offers D.C. Voucher Program Extension for Existing Students | 44 | washingtonpost.com

 

[edthecynic]

credible solutions are going to be complex and expensive.

With any big change there is problems...I was always taught not to analyze everything to the point of paralysis...Us students are falling behind...that is the biggest problem...Seems I read somewhere that vouchers were being tried and working...I believe in D.C. ...but our president stopped it in what everyone thought was a favor to the teachers unions...

Obama Offers D.C. Voucher Program Extension for Existing Students | 44 | washingtonpost.com

If by "everyone" you mean only GOP hate radio and by "working" you mean not working then you would be Right!

From your own link:

The Department of Education recently issued a three-year analysis of student achievement under the program that showed limited gains in reading and no significant progress in math.

 

[DaGoose]

credible solutions are going to be complex and expensive.

With any big change there is problems...I was always taught not to analyze everything to the point of paralysis...Us students are falling behind...that is the biggest problem...Seems I read somewhere that vouchers were being tried and working...I believe in D.C. ...but our president stopped it in what everyone thought was a favor to the teachers unions...

Obama Offers D.C. Voucher Program Extension for Existing Students | 44 | washingtonpost.com

If by "everyone" you mean only GOP hate radio and by "working" you mean not working then you would be Right!

From your own link:

The Department of Education recently issued a three-year analysis of student achievement under the program that showed limited gains in reading and no significant progress in math.

Which is why I posted earlier in the thread...Bottom line? Vouchers won't work except in very limited, controlled circumstances.