Teacher suspended for letting class vote out autistic boy

[William Joyce]

An important lesson in democracy.

 

[Angel Heart]

Would it make a difference in your opinions if, hypothetically, the boy wasn't autistic?

If he was just a disruptive child with no special needs?

Yeah I would. I would have a problem if my child was one of the ones doing the voting. This isn't appropriate for a KINDERGARDEN class. We're talking about 5-6 year olds.

 

[Gem]

Missourian Wrote:

Would it make a difference in your opinions if, hypothetically, the boy wasn't autistic?

If he was just a disruptive child with no special needs?

The difference, in my opinion as a special education teacher, is that she probably would not have been breaking any laws in her bad judgment, whereas if the student was identified as a student with special needs, enacting punishment in this way could quite easily be a violation of his IEP and his rights as a student with a disability.

Still - a child this age developmentally is unable to process the type of social understanding that this woman claims she was trying to instill...which means that she is, at best, unprofessional and unaware of the developmental levels of the students in her class...and at worst, a teacher who allows her own feelings of frustration and anger to boil over and she takes it out on the children.

Neither are qualities I would look for in a kindergarten teacher (or any teacher, for that matter).

I know it sounds to some like I am being unduly harsh...but as a teacher who feels that if we want to be treated and viewed as professionals we need to act accordingly...then women like this have no place in this profession.

 

[tigerbob]

Suffice it to say that you probably can't manage to be damning no matter what, and that you're looking for a way to turn tail and run without having to admit that you're trying to defend an indefensible position simply because you're programmed to try to be "nice" and "compassionate" and "understanding" of everyone.

Run along.

What a long sentence.

You're confusing (deliberately I would guess) choice with inability.

I choose not to condemn someone completely until I have more facts. You choose to condemn them because one article is enough for you to know everything about this particular case.

I am unable to understand how someone can condemn a person they have never met and about whom they have read nothing (I assume) but this single report. You are unable to understand how, given the content of this report, anyone could fail to condemn the teacher involved.

We are approaching it from 2 different perspectives and with different ideas of black and white.

As for me being unable to be damning no matter what, that's incorrect. I have now read enough of your posts to understand a bit more about you than I do about this teacher. You are a self-absorbed, self-important fuckwit who thinks that all they have to do is shout loudly and be obnoxious enough and they will carry any discussion. Yours is the 'Real Housewives of Atlanta' style of debating and it is inelegant, uninvolving and uninspiring.

I do try to be nice to everyone, except those who have demonstrated that they are not worth it and I'm quite happy with that set of values for living my life.

You seem to think that your version is always the better version, your opinion more valid, that you have a better song to sing. Unfortunately you've not found a better song, merely a different song and, to quote Willy Russell, on your lips it is shrill and hollow and tuneless.

Now, I'd better run along and leave you to shout and scream your way to a pyrrhic victory.

 

[CherryTheTart]

I had something similar happen. I have a severely dyslexic child. When she was in first grade she could not print/write well. It was clear from her just making circles on assignments that she was getting excellent grades by memorizing only in all other subjects. The teacher flunked her because her printing was not adequate. How is it that I a parent without a BA knew immediately upon seeing the paper that the child was dyslexic and reading disabled. How come the professional educator didn't get it?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Even IF the student needed to be removed from that classroom for whatever reason, the teacher should not have involved other students.

But it's such a great life lesson to teach the little crumb-crunchers: if someone is different from you, you should fear them and ridicule them and hurt them.

If I may say so, though, I would think a black woman would have a different perspective on tolerance and compassion.

 

[Isolde]

As the parent of an autistic child, we have fought tirelessly with the bureaucrats who refuse to acknowledge the problem and come up with creative solutions. The inclusion model is wrong and throwing them in with developmentally disabled or emotionally/behaviorally disabled is an absolute nightmare.

It sure would be nice to have some school choice, but for now we're screwed by the pompous do-nothing establishment. Why should the school system do the absolute best for a child when they can get away with a half-assed job?

I apologize to the SpEd teachers for this rant, I realize you are doing the best you can under the circumstances and my anger isn't directed at you.

I have two typical children as well and I fully appreciate the fact that my son should not be in their classrooms.

As for the teacher in the OP, she is an inept asshat and shouldn't be within 10 miles of a classroom.

 

[tigerbob]

Police report reveals teacher's side of incident in which boy 'voted' out of Port St. Lucie class : St. Lucie County : TCPalm

 

[Gem]

So her side is - it was appropriate to let a class of kindergarteners vote out a child with special needs - just for the day - because it would help him.

Sorry...everything I have previously stated still stands. This is developmentally inappropriate at this age group and, quite frankly, this is not a method I would use in any classroom from kindergarten to college. Having an entire class gang up on one student is not appropriate.

At an intermediate level, students are able to discuss classroom behavior and rules in a "class meeting" type of situation in which a teacher leads and guides the conversation in a broader way. For instance, "What rules are important for us to follow in class? What happens if people don't follow these rules? What should happen to a student who doesn't follow the rules?" That way, all students can voice their opinions without pointing out one child as "disgusting." Additionally, by giving all students, even the ones who may display troubling behaviors, a voice in setting up the rules of the classroom...the teacher has given the students the ever-important illusion of control. That way, when a child misbehaves...s/he knows the rules and has agreed to them in advance.

These are common, well-known methods for dealing with classroom disruptions...Classroom Survivor...is not. I am sure that for regular students without discipline issues - this teacher was a dream. It is just a shame that she was so woefully unable to deal with a student with special needs without becoming cruel and unprofessional.

 

[Againsheila]

why shouldnt he be aware that you are judged by your behavior? that you cannot disrupt the family or community in a destructive manner...who speaks for the kids who are being cheated by this one child? was there a teacher's aid in the classroom for this child? what was this class ratio...of teacher to child...do you realize how much attention one child like this takes away from the class? why are yall acting like this teacher is to be condemned....dont we all judge and vote on our peer group daily? who we go to lunch with...who we dont ask for drinks etc? why are we going to shield kids from the reality of life? emotional abuse is telling the brats that life is fair and just and easy...bullshit...tell them the truth...we are dealing we a generation already that has been pampered to death....let us take this 8 yr old who may have killed his father and the boarder....o now everyone is singing the blues...cause there was no adult there when the kid was questioned...well guess what...if he hadnt shot his dad..there would have been an adult there...i see the kid is gonna be allowed to spend the holidays with his mom...i wonder how well she will sleep?

This kid is 5 years old. He has problems. You don't take those problems out on the kid. You discuss it with the parents. You work it out. You don't have the kid voted out of the class. As you know my oldest child has asperger's syndrom. When he first started school he was diagnosed with ADHD. When he was in first grade I was being called every day by the teacher about how "disruptive" my child was in class. I asked her, "just what is it he does that's so disruptive" and the first words out of her mouth, I swear to God were, "Well, for one thing he works ahead in his math book."

My chin hit the floor, "And that's a problem for you?" "well, what am I gonna do when he finishes it," "I'll BUY him another one."

I went to the class to observe. I sat in the back. At one point the teacher was giving them an assignment and my son got out of his seat to ask another student if he could borrow their pencil sharpener. As it wasn't on the supplies list, I didn't buy him one, I expected the classroom to have one. None of the kids would loan him one and instead of fixing the problem, the teacher just told him to "sit down". He obviously couldn't finish his assignment with a broken pencil. The teacher called all the kids up to the front to read a story to them. As she read, the book was facing her, after she read each page she would show it to the class. My son kept getting up on his knees, trying to see the picture while she was reading. Every single time he did, she would stop reading, set the book down and say "Sit down David, you'll see the picture when everyon else does." meanwhile, two little girls were talking throughout the whole story to the point that I couldn't hear it in the back of the room. The teacher never said one word to the two little girls. When recess time came, the kids went out. I wanted to talk talk to the teacher but I was stunned as one little girl was obviously terrified of going out to recess and she physically picked up the girl and dragged her out of the room, turned and locked the door and said to me, "She gets this from David<my son>".

Thankfully that teacher is no longer teaching. In fact, she didn't last the year. The damage she did to my son as extensive. It took years for me to convince my son that he was worth something, that he could do math, etc. He started college this year at 24. He was surprised that he passed 2 math classes in the space of 1 and got A's in both of them. He actually didn't think he could do it.

That elementary school he went to was so bad that I took him out of school and homeschooled him for 4th and 5th grade. We had the Speech therapist come over to work with him. She even noticed a difference in his behavior after leaving that awful school.

How can you defend a teacher for doing this to a child?

 

[Againsheila]

I would agree that the teacher ought to be disciplined... but I think termination is a bit much.

From my POV, it's just as wrong to ask a bunch of 5 year-olds to normalize a peer as it is to ask them to discipline him. Special needs kids need to be in special education programs, not "mainstreamed" to the detriment of the other kids.

If this one child is habitually disruptive... then SEVENTEEN other children are paying the price for it. That's not fair. And one imagines that in particularly difficult cases, a regular classroom teacher, who isn't specifically trained to deal with disability, can make mistakes.

The link has a picture of the little boy in question... and he's a really cute kid. My heart goes out to him. But I bet those other 17 are pretty cute kids too. They shouldn't have their first taste of the schoolroom marred by constant upheaval and they shouldn't be asked to either discipline or train special needs students.

My oldest child is high functioning autism. he was treated abominably in elementary school. The kids were brats.

My youngest is low function autism. He went to a different school and he was treat 100 times better. Normal kids would stop us at the mall or wherever they saw us. They'd try to talk to Andrew and they try to get him to talk back. They learned compassion from having him in their schools and yes, mainstreamed for PE and Art.

Meanwhile, the other school, with my oldest kid taught the kids to redicule those who are different.

Now which ones do you think will go further as adults? Which do you think will have a better impact on the world? The ones that were taught compassion by the school or the ones that were taught to ridicule anyone that was different?

 

[Againsheila]

I care what her intention was. If her intention was to humiliate the child there's a big difference to if she intended simply to let him see the impact he was having on others. I was drawing a minor distinction between the 2. One is arguably misguided, the other is clearly cruelty and should be punished by courts, not a school board.

Intent is a legal distinction, irrespective of what "we all know" or which roads lead where.

The teacher is an adult, the kid is 5. If she didn't know better, she shouldn't be teaching.

 

[Macintosh]

This **** should be fired and have her license taken away from her. To me, she's a danger to children. And whatever loony-tune school afforded her a degree should be put on probation for the next 100 fucking years.

The woman is a disgusting, vile piece of shit.

 

[Againsheila]

Some people OUGHT to be kept from wanting to teach as a career, and this brain-damaged weirdo is one of them. It's a classroom - a KINDERGARTEN classroom - not an episode of "Survivor". My God, school systems can't get rid of "students" who are drug dealers and violent criminals because it "violates their right to a public education", but this ignorant bitch thought it was appropriate and legal to have 5-year-olds vote a handicapped classmate "off the island"? What the hell?

As for wanting him to "have feedback to improve his behavior", he has Asperger's, for the love of God! It's not like he's just a spoiled brat. I'm sure he already knows his problems better than anyone else does, and it isn't as though he has a whole lot of choice about them one way or the other.

And by the way, for those of you rattling on about somehow "depriving" the other students by making them deal with a "mainstreamed special needs" kid, Asperger's is not normally so debilitating that those who have it don't still lead more or less normal lives in with the rest of society. God help us if we've gotten to the point where we never want our children to encounter and deal with anyone who isn't perfectly, down-the-middle, white-bread average and "normal".

Some people believe that you can make someone "normal" with discipline. I was shocked when a friend of mine was complaining about my oldest son's behavior and said "If you spanked him more, wouldn't he act more normal?"

And this from a man with a sister with Tourettes.

 

[Againsheila]

Would it make a difference in your opinions if, hypothetically, the boy wasn't autistic?

If he was just a disruptive child with no special needs?

Not mine. What this teacher did was abusive. You have a problem with one of your students, you set up a parent/teacher conferance, you don't bring him up to the front of the class and let the other kids call him "disgusting" and vote him out of the class.

 

[tigerbob]

So her side is - it was appropriate to let a class of kindergarteners vote out a child with special needs - just for the day - because it would help him.

Sorry...everything I have previously stated still stands. This is developmentally inappropriate at this age group and, quite frankly, this is not a method I would use in any classroom from kindergarten to college. Having an entire class gang up on one student is not appropriate.

At an intermediate level, students are able to discuss classroom behavior and rules in a "class meeting" type of situation in which a teacher leads and guides the conversation in a broader way. For instance, "What rules are important for us to follow in class? What happens if people don't follow these rules? What should happen to a student who doesn't follow the rules?" That way, all students can voice their opinions without pointing out one child as "disgusting." Additionally, by giving all students, even the ones who may display troubling behaviors, a voice in setting up the rules of the classroom...the teacher has given the students the ever-important illusion of control. That way, when a child misbehaves...s/he knows the rules and has agreed to them in advance.

These are common, well-known methods for dealing with classroom disruptions...Classroom Survivor...is not. I am sure that for regular students without discipline issues - this teacher was a dream. It is just a shame that she was so woefully unable to deal with a student with special needs without becoming cruel and unprofessional.

There is very little in your several posts that I would disagree with. Her decision was probably wrong, but I really do think that a reprimand and a warning about future occurrences would have been more appropriate, for a number of reasons.

The child was undergoing an investigation to establish the exact nature of his problems, therefore it is safe to assume that the teacher was quite possibly in the dark.

The child had already been removed from class twice that day, which means that god alone knows how many times he had misbehaved before being removed. The other children have a right to learn and it is saddening that the teacher was not given more support with what appears to be a student who is very troublesome and needs help.

Most of the reports in the media are based almost entirely on the statements given by a 5 year old child with behavioral issues. That doesn't make them incorrect, but it most certainly does not make them factual.

I originally posted that I disagreed slightly with your conclusion that she had deliberately abused him to make her feel better. I still disagree with that - nothing I have read would lead me to think that this teacher is a sadist. In fact the more I read about her she seems to be a respected, dedicated professional who is liked by parents and pupils alike. And I genuinely believe that she was doing this with the best intentions, even though it was quite probably, as I have said, the wrong decision.

Finally, some of the posts about her I have read on this and other sites (she is an idiot, cruel, stupid, an asshole, an evil bitch, should be fired, should be prevented from working with children ever again, should be imprisoned and in one extreme case should be shot, in ascending order of vitriol) seem extreme.

I think at worst she is misguided, will suffer mightily with the one year unpaid suspension, and is being subjected to a level of national hatred out of all proportion to her actions. And in the meantime, her remaining pupils have lost a teacher that they really seem to have both liked and respected.

I think a one year suspension is harsh, but I leave it to others more closely involved and more experienced to determine what is or isn't appropriate and if they think suspension for a year is right, so be it.

Thanks for taking the time to let me know your thoughts about what is clearly an issue close to your heart, and for doing it in so reasonable a manner. You've given me some food for thought, which I will consider in future.

 

[tigerbob]

this **** Should Be Fired And Have Her License Taken Away From Her. To Me, She's A Danger To Children. And Whatever Loony-tune School Afforded Her A Degree Should Be Put On Probation For The Next 100 Fucking Years.

The Woman Is A Disgusting, Vile Piece Of Shit.

Qed.

 

[Macintosh]

Qed.

No, it's quite true.

 

[Macintosh]

Frankly, some of the ultra-liberal comments defending this disgusting piece of shit are notably non sequitur.

The oh, but she meant well line of reasoning is seemingly sufficient for the most abject of people. Hell, I bet a few folks would consider saying Hilter meant well. (Not that this woman is comparable to Hitler, but certainly the line of reasoning used to defend this **** could be used to defend people like Hitler.)

Seriously, as an "educator" she should know that public ridicule, bullying, and the like are detrimental to the development of children. Her apparent and appalling ignorance of this immutable fact is by itself a cause for termination.

How any serious person could even consider what she did to be "well-meaning" is absurd. For Christ sakes, she all but turned this kid into Ishmael. She effectively detached this child from his peers, but did so in the most beastly manner: allowing his peers - who, quite obviously, were coerced by the teacher when she suggested a vote - to detach him.

Fuck her. She is a disgrace to this country, to teachers, and to all people. Don't like my opinion? Q.E.D. it some more. I don't give a damn.

 

[YWN666]

The teacher is an adult, the kid is 5. If she didn't know better, she shouldn't be teaching.

Exactly. Any adult should have known better and since she was trained as a teacher, she has no excuse.