Taxes, Spending, the Fiscal Cliff, and Austerity

[saveliberty]

Austerity is the only option, if Obama insists on avoiding spending cuts and pushing debt ceiling increases.

 

[Foxfyre]

I think it will be very easy for the repubs to say we gave them their tax hikes on the rich but they wouldn't cut spending. That is a winner in the red states, and maybe also in some purple states if the economy isn't any better.

Yes, well I hope you're right. I really do. But I lost a bet on a good steak dinner that Obama could not be re-elected in the crappy economy we have endured for four years. But I was wrong. And I am now convinced the media can convince the gullible and willing of anything in the world it wants to convince them of.

Do you really think that all those people who voted for Obama want a crappy economy? 8+% unemployment into perpetuity? Want the nation to be financially insolvent? Want an unimiginable number of mortgages to be underwater? Want trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see? Want more than 50% of the population on some kind of government dole?

I don't believe that most of them want that.

But the media was able to convince them that it was the Republicans fault that things are as bad as they are and that the Republicans would continue the misery plus take away what government benefits those same people are receiving.

So I'm not holding my breath that reality and honest assessment of the facts will prevail in the next two years either.

What has happened is that people keep enabling the two partys. Essentially they are different sides of the same coin. Even when the Republicans win they fail to give us less government. They are exactly like the democrats, growing government and protecting their party. Most people have become disillusioned, because they never seem able to enact reforms and STOP the Behemoth from devouring our liberty's.

The issue most of us see now is that its the political system thats needing changed, not just the two partying politickers

There is much truth to that. They all talk a great game, but at the end of the day most are going to vote for whatever will keep them in power and increase their prestige, influence, and personal fortunes. But because almost all conservatives are aligned with the Republican Party--that is NOT the same thing as saying the Republican Party is conservative--the GOP reps will consider that in their votes and therefore tend to do less long term damage than the Dems. Or at least they do it more slowly.

Here is what we are up against. (Not making any claims for the accuracy of the numbers, but do believe the conclusion is spot on):

Source unknown:

How stupid are we???

Look at our brilliant representatives and that great clunker buy back program.

The person who calculated this bit of information is now, and has been a professor at the University of West Virginia in Morgantown for the last 40 some years. He says that:

• A clunker that travels 12,000 miles a year at 15 mpg uses 800 gallons of gas a year.

• A new vehicle that travels 12,000 miles a year at 25 mpg uses 480 gallons of gas a year. Or if a super fuel efficient model at 35 mpg uses 343 gallons of gas a year.

• So, the average Cash for Clunkers transaction reduced gasoline consumption between 320 and 457 gallons per year. Let's average that at 390 gallons.

• The government claims 700,000 clunkers have been replaced so that is 273 million gallons saved per year.

• That equates to a bit over 6 million barrels of oil.

• 6 million barrels is about 6 hours worth of US consumption.

• More importantly, 6 million barrels of oil at $70 per barrel costs about $420 million dollars.

• So, the government paid $3 billion of our tax dollars to save $350 million.

They spent $7.00 for every $1.00 they saved unless those new car buyers keep those vehicles for well over 7 years to compensate for the interest we will pay on that $3 billion which of course was borrowed to begin with. And that is also assuming that the folks will drive no more miles in the new cars than they did in their clunkers.

And we still saw gasoline prices climb into the rafters and we didn't seem to reduce our dependency on foreign oil one bit.

I'm sure they are going to do much better math with Obamacare and getting those spending cuts into place though.

 

[saveliberty]

The analysis fails to note the price of used trucks went up as a result of the program as well.

 

[Wiseacre]

You really think the Democrats will get the blame? So far they haven't gotten the blame for anything in the last six years though they have held most of the cards for that period. The media is not going to tell it like it is.

Some important things happened this past weekend and little or nothing of that is being prominently reported in the mainstream media. A lot of important things that should have happened and didn't are also not being prominently reported by the mainstream media.

What is leading the headlines, the photo ops, the lead paragraphs? It is Boehner saying "F*** you" (twice) to Harry Reid. You have to really dig to find out that this was in response to Reid calling Boehner a dictator and other uncomplimentary terms.

And such is the intellect of today's media and apparently most of those voting for our elected leadership these days.

I think it will be very easy for the repubs to say we gave them their tax hikes on the rich but they wouldn't cut spending. That is a winner in the red states, and maybe also in some purple states if the economy isn't any better.

Yes, well I hope you're right. I really do. But I lost a bet on a good steak dinner that Obama could not be re-elected in the crappy economy we have endured for four years. But I was wrong. And I am now convinced the media can convince the gullible and willing of anything in the world it wants to convince them of.

Do you really think that all those people who voted for Obama want a crappy economy? 8+% unemployment into perpetuity? Want the nation to be financially insolvent? Want an unimiginable number of mortgages to be underwater? Want trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see? Want more than 50% of the population on some kind of government dole?

I don't believe that most of them want that.

But the media was able to convince them that it was the Republicans fault that things are as bad as they are and that the Republicans would continue the misery plus take away what government benefits those same people are receiving.

So I'm not holding my breath that reality and honest assessment of the facts will prevail in the next two years either.

I think many of those people who votged for Obama did so because the dems did such a good job demonizing Romney, And Romney did himself no favors with several gaffes that made him look like what the dems were saying he was. And he wasn't the greatest candidate in the world either. IOW, Obama won more cuz of his negative campaign than he did with his own record. Obviously.

Other thing is, and don't kid yourself about this, there are a lot of people on the dole who want to keep it that way. Or they want a bailout/handout; there was a story out of Detroit about a city councilwoman who said she and Detroit voted for Obama and now she expects to get a bailout from him. The unions are the same way, as are the greenies. And Obama will do it too, if he can find a way to get around Congress and don't think he ain't trying to do just that.

Current polls suggest that America wants less gov't spending. Repubs need to jump all over this at every opportunity, just like the dems did over the tax hikes on the wealthy. They made the repubs bite the bullet, and it is now time to return the favor. What goes around comes around.

 

[Foxfyre]

I think it will be very easy for the repubs to say we gave them their tax hikes on the rich but they wouldn't cut spending. That is a winner in the red states, and maybe also in some purple states if the economy isn't any better.

Yes, well I hope you're right. I really do. But I lost a bet on a good steak dinner that Obama could not be re-elected in the crappy economy we have endured for four years. But I was wrong. And I am now convinced the media can convince the gullible and willing of anything in the world it wants to convince them of.

Do you really think that all those people who voted for Obama want a crappy economy? 8+% unemployment into perpetuity? Want the nation to be financially insolvent? Want an unimiginable number of mortgages to be underwater? Want trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see? Want more than 50% of the population on some kind of government dole?

I don't believe that most of them want that.

But the media was able to convince them that it was the Republicans fault that things are as bad as they are and that the Republicans would continue the misery plus take away what government benefits those same people are receiving.

So I'm not holding my breath that reality and honest assessment of the facts will prevail in the next two years either.

I think many of those people who votged for Obama did so because the dems did such a good job demonizing Romney, And Romney did himself no favors with several gaffes that made him look like what the dems were saying he was. And he wasn't the greatest candidate in the world either. IOW, Obama won more cuz of his negative campaign than he did with his own record. Obviously.

Other thing is, and don't kid yourself about this, there are a lot of people on the dole who want to keep it that way. Or they want a bailout/handout; there was a story out of Detroit about a city councilwoman who said she and Detroit voted for Obama and now she expects to get a bailout from him. The unions are the same way, as are the greenies. And Obama will do it too, if he can find a way to get around Congress and don't think he ain't trying to do just that.

Current polls suggest that America wants less gov't spending. Repubs need to jump all over this at every opportunity, just like the dems did over the tax hikes on the wealthy. They made the repubs bite the bullet, and it is now time to return the favor. What goes around comes around.

But I think you either didn't hear all I tried to say, or more likely I just said it badly.

I agree that those the government has made dependent, even just a little bit, are not eager to give up whatever freebies/benefits they are getting. So yes that is part of it and it is in conflict with their convictions, shared by us, about what is wrong with government. We no longer have as much of a self-sacrficing, do it for the good of the country population as we had in an earlier time. And too often it is looking to the other guy, and not ourselves, to tighten his/her belt and take one for the team.

But I'm not buying that Romney is one who blew it. Okay he missed some great opportunities to deliver punches, but so did Obama. Okay he made some gaffes, but so did Obama. The difference is in how the media protrayed Romney's missed opportunities and gaffes. The last analysis I saw, the media coverage was something like 11 to 1 negative coverage for Romney and the GOP compared to that for Obama and the Democrats. And THAT is why so many saw Romney as different from what he was. And THAT is why a majority of Americans believe that all this is mostly the Republican's fault, and if the Republicans had not been the greed, obstructionist, all-for-the-rich creeps as the media has portrayed them, then Obama would have all this fixed by now.

 

[PaulS1950]

All I can say is; "Welcome to the USA (United Socialist America)."
We, as a country, avoided the fiscal "pot hole" and sped up toward the "fiscal black hole" of a bankrupt country. We are situated to increase the national debt to 20 trillion dollars by the end of Obama's second term with higher unemployment, lower GDP, and less tax income than ever before. Prices will continue to climb across the board and over 50% of the population will be on goverment support. They already are if you count unemployment as government support. We have become a socialist country and the republic is already dead.
The banning of all firearms is an absolute necessity to continue down this road and it will happen or we will have the greatest civil war that any country has ever suffered. Illinois is in the process of passing the first ban that will test what a state can get away with. They are banning all semi-auto rifles, pistols and shotguns and pump action shotguns; taxing and inspecting all public shooting ranges out of existence and requiring all gun owners to have and use "gun owner registration cards" just like so many countries have just before complete confiscation. The media and schools have been systematically educating our children that guns are bad - no guns are evil - for years. They have convinced a large population that the NRA (that was established with the help of the government to promote gun safety and civilian marksmanship) is an evil organization that buys political power to promote the evils of gun ownership.
I hope that I am wrong but with all that is going on politically, in our schools and in the media I firmly believe that the USA is going the same route as Germany, The USSR, Cuba and China.
If I wa in charge of the GOP I would refuse to run a candidate in the next presidential election because we are in a position where we are no longer able to continue the path that more than 50% of the population wants to go without losing every last bit of the freedoms and rights that we have.
So I bid farewell to the home of the free and the land of the brave.

 

[Foxfyre]

All I can say is; "Welcome to the USA (United Socialist America)."
We, as a country, avoided the fiscal "pot hole" and sped up toward the "fiscal black hole" of a bankrupt country. We are situated to increase the national debt to 20 trillion dollars by the end of Obama's second term with higher unemployment, lower GDP, and less tax income than ever before. Prices will continue to climb across the board and over 50% of the population will be on goverment support. They already are if you count unemployment as government support. We have become a socialist country and the republic is already dead.
The banning of all firearms is an absolute necessity to continue down this road and it will happen or we will have the greatest civil war that any country has ever suffered. Illinois is in the process of passing the first ban that will test what a state can get away with. They are banning all semi-auto rifles, pistols and shotguns and pump action shotguns; taxing and inspecting all public shooting ranges out of existence and requiring all gun owners to have and use "gun owner registration cards" just like so many countries have just before complete confiscation. The media and schools have been systematically educating our children that guns are bad - no guns are evil - for years. They have convinced a large population that the NRA (that was established with the help of the government to promote gun safety and civilian marksmanship) is an evil organization that buys political power to promote the evils of gun ownership.
I hope that I am wrong but with all that is going on politically, in our schools and in the media I firmly believe that the USA is going the same route as Germany, The USSR, Cuba and China.
If I wa in charge of the GOP I would refuse to run a candidate in the next presidential election because we are in a position where we are no longer able to continue the path that more than 50% of the population wants to go without losing every last bit of the freedoms and rights that we have.
So I bid farewell to the home of the free and the land of the brave.

I can't argue that the danger for us all isn't there, Paul. But as long as we still have our First Amendment Rights of free speech, I do believe there are enough Americans left who want an America of the strong, the brave, and the free that we can still make a difference. But we are going to have to unify on a message and stand firm in order to do that. We can't continue to be sidetracked by poorly understoood or defined social and/or socioeconomic issues. We need to agree on one honest and positive message we can all stand by and support and articulate efficiently and start bringing converts to our side until it is a done deal.

 

[LibertyLemming]

All I can say is; "Welcome to the USA (United Socialist America)."
We, as a country, avoided the fiscal "pot hole" and sped up toward the "fiscal black hole" of a bankrupt country. We are situated to increase the national debt to 20 trillion dollars by the end of Obama's second term with higher unemployment, lower GDP, and less tax income than ever before. Prices will continue to climb across the board and over 50% of the population will be on goverment support. They already are if you count unemployment as government support. We have become a socialist country and the republic is already dead.
The banning of all firearms is an absolute necessity to continue down this road and it will happen or we will have the greatest civil war that any country has ever suffered. Illinois is in the process of passing the first ban that will test what a state can get away with. They are banning all semi-auto rifles, pistols and shotguns and pump action shotguns; taxing and inspecting all public shooting ranges out of existence and requiring all gun owners to have and use "gun owner registration cards" just like so many countries have just before complete confiscation. The media and schools have been systematically educating our children that guns are bad - no guns are evil - for years. They have convinced a large population that the NRA (that was established with the help of the government to promote gun safety and civilian marksmanship) is an evil organization that buys political power to promote the evils of gun ownership.
I hope that I am wrong but with all that is going on politically, in our schools and in the media I firmly believe that the USA is going the same route as Germany, The USSR, Cuba and China.
If I wa in charge of the GOP I would refuse to run a candidate in the next presidential election because we are in a position where we are no longer able to continue the path that more than 50% of the population wants to go without losing every last bit of the freedoms and rights that we have.
So I bid farewell to the home of the free and the land of the brave.

I can't argue that the danger for us all isn't there, Paul. But as long as we still have our First Amendment Rights of free speech, I do believe there are enough Americans left who want an America of the strong, the brave, and the free that we can still make a difference. But we are going to have to unify on a message and stand firm in order to do that. We can't continue to be sidetracked by poorly understoood or defined social and/or socioeconomic issues. We need to agree on one honest and positive message we can all stand by and support and articulate efficiently and start bringing converts to our side until it is a done deal.

Speech alone will accomplish little against action, of which the government retains all control.

 

[Foxfyre]

We first have to understand the lies that are being used against freedom of the people and being used to promote more, bigger, more powerful government.

Such as the line that is being believed by well educated people that Obama has increased spending less during his term of office than almost any other President.

What is the simple message we can used to counter that? Something that is easily understandable?

I use the analogy that if I spent $100 in 2008 and $200 in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012, I could say that I had not increased spending for three years. I don't mention that I started with an unsustainable number to begin with and that's how the media is playing it.

http://www.heritage.org/~/media/InfoGraphics/2012/10/SRfedspendingnumbers2012p11table1_600.ashx

 

[saveliberty]

There is no free lunch for any people. Americans will pay a price and the time is fast approaching.

 

[LibertyLemming]

There is no free lunch for any people. Americans will pay a price and the time is fast approaching.

True that. I'll be surprised if the dollar lasts a decade.

 

[Foxfyre]

In the link in my previous post you will see that the total expenditures in 2008, the last year of the Bush administration, was $3168 trillion. And if you deduct TARP from that amount, the total would have been roughly $2,768 trillion, which was less than the year before, and the deficit in 2008 would have been roughly $87 billion.

Had that trend continued, we would have seen the deficit erased in 2009.

But in 2009 the Obama administration spent $3696 triillion
But in 2010 the Obama administration spent $3,590 trillion
But in 2011 the Obama administration spent $3,666 trillion
But in 2012 the Obama administration spent $3,563 trillion

And we have had trillion plus deficits every one of those years, more than double anything seen before including the worst of the Bush years.

Is the media pushing these grim numbers to educate the public? Nope. Not a peep. Not even a whimper. It's all the obstructionist Republicans fault so far as the media is concerned. The Republicans did not pass that 2009 budget, however--to a man and woman they voted against it. And we haven't had a budget in 2010, 2011, or 2012.

I am not excusing the excesses of the Republican representatives in the House and Senate either. They still mostly vote their own selfish interests rather than the good of the country. But you simply cannot lay all of this stuff at their feet.

And THAT is the truth. And THAT is what we have to find a way to communicate to the people out there.

 

[PaulS1950]

There is only one point that can be rallied behind to prevent the demise of the USA and it is no longer important to more than half of the population:
The bill of rights.
If we were all against any limits or breaches of any of our rights then the government would have less power than they do now.
Free speach is being attacked through the one-sided media, the tapping of all information that travels the communications networks and "politically correct" verbalism.
Our right to defend ourselves is under constant attack from those who have been taught that guns are the root of all evil.
Our right to freedom from search and seizure has been virtually removed through the use of the term "social justice" and reinforced by those who say it makes us safer.
If all the first amendment people, second amendment advocates and fourth amendment folks got together we could do something but they have been driven apart because they do not voice their concern, if any, for the loss of the other rights.
Most of those who are concerned over the loss of the second amenment show concern for the other losses too but it is rarely reciprocal.

What can be done when the police bust your door down to look for and confiscate your guns? They have the power to search your home for whatever they want and to take any "dangerous" weapons they find. The local news will only report that another cache of weapons have been removed from another criminal's home and the criminal arrested or killed in the action.

 

[catatomic]

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do. But it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving."

I am not calling you fools, but whether you want to focus on a good decision or good politics to get it, I suggest we stop thinking of what can't happen and start looking for what can happen.

 

[Foxfyre]

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do. But it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving."

I am not calling you fools, but whether you want to focus on a good decision or good politics to get it, I suggest we stop thinking of what can't happen and start looking for what can happen.

As long as the name of the game is blame and/or oneupmanship and/or making the other guys look bad, and as long as the debate avoids dealing with realities but focuses on insulting or accusing somebody, the chances of us looking for solutions are nil to none.

 

[Wiseacre]

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do. But it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving."

I am not calling you fools, but whether you want to focus on a good decision or good politics to get it, I suggest we stop thinking of what can't happen and start looking for what can happen.

As long as the name of the game is blame and/or oneupmanship and/or making the other guys look bad, and as long as the debate avoids dealing with realities but focuses on insulting or accusing somebody, the chances of us looking for solutions are nil to none.

And the pols on both sides don't seem to be interested in long term solutions, but instead focus on the next election.

 

[Foxfyre]

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do. But it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving."

I am not calling you fools, but whether you want to focus on a good decision or good politics to get it, I suggest we stop thinking of what can't happen and start looking for what can happen.

As long as the name of the game is blame and/or oneupmanship and/or making the other guys look bad, and as long as the debate avoids dealing with realities but focuses on insulting or accusing somebody, the chances of us looking for solutions are nil to none.

And the pols on both sides don't seem to be interested in long term solutions, but instead focus on the next election.

Yep. They just kicked the can down the road. Again. Six weeks ago Republicans were resisting the President's offer of $10 in spending cuts (spread over a short eternity of course) for every $1 in new taxes imposed on the rich. They opposed it because they had pledged not to raise taxes and the plan put forth gave us the taxes immediately and the spending cuts maybe sometime on down the road.

So now what have they agreed to? $1 in spending cuts--maybe on down the road--for every $41 in new taxes that are imposed immediately.

We're screwed.