Supply side economics work...just not how we would like

ZOMG! We'll never produce another car in this country again!!! We'll never produce another widget because the Chinese can produce it cheaper. And then they'll jack the price up and we'll have forgotten how to make widgets! ZOMG! ZOMG!!

You understand that competition means people entering industries where profits are to be had, right?

You do understand that the profits are primarily being made from our pockets, right?

That the US is a consumer nation, and that there's a massive trade imbalance right now, right?

If we're paying less for a product, how is that a problem? You understand there is no imbalance, right? What are the Chinese going to do with the dollars they have earned?
What is the problem of a "massive trade imbalance"? If Apple buys chips from Taiwan for $65 and turns it into an iPod and sells it for $250 who is losing out here?
 
You ever BEEN to India or seem documentaries of their transportation system?

It's kinda of Imperialistic of you to want to UNEMPLOY all those Indian pedi-car operators and force giant US autos on their absolutely cruddy roads. Not my business if India wants to keep their unique chaotic system the way it is.. When they have a HIWAY SYSTEM -- i'll reconsider the inconvienience. They ARE a large market for OTHER US goods. Especially in energy systems, medical devices, farming supplies, and aircraft.
 
You understand that a) real wages paid are influenced by many things, globalization only one of them; and b) that benefit does not necessarily get reflected in wages, and c) that perhaps wages would be even lower were it not for the benefits of opened markets, right?

Wages kept going up until those markets were opened, and then they flat-lined.

But your assertion is that there is no causality there, and wages would have gone down further if the markets weren't opened up?

And, in addition, you want us to believe that the US has been a net beneficiary of globalization?

Yeah, sorry, I don't drink that brand of Kool Aid.

Correlation does not equal causation. Keep repeating that.
I dont assert that wages would have gone down further. I offer that as a possibility. But you've ignored the part about other benefits, like lower prices across the board.
 
If we're paying less for a product, how is that a problem? You understand there is no imbalance, right? What are the Chinese going to do with the dollars they have earned?
What is the problem of a "massive trade imbalance"? If Apple buys chips from Taiwan for $65 and turns it into an iPod and sells it for $250 who is losing out here?

The people who pay the $250.00? Because Taiwan doesn't buy anything from them?
 
If we're paying less for a product, how is that a problem? You understand there is no imbalance, right? What are the Chinese going to do with the dollars they have earned?
What is the problem of a "massive trade imbalance"? If Apple buys chips from Taiwan for $65 and turns it into an iPod and sells it for $250 who is losing out here?

The people who pay the $250.00? Because Taiwan doesn't buy anything from them?

The people who pay $250 get a brand new iPod. They haven't lost anything. If we stuck a tariff on chips they would pay $350 for a new iPod. That would give them less money to spend on, e.g. craft beers.
Keep guessing.
 
So the Chinese choose to subsidize their solar panel industry, resulting in lower prices for consumers of solar panels.
That's a problem how?

OK, there's a tactic in business called "Cornering the Market".

Here, I'll let Wiki explain it:

In finance, to corner the market is to get sufficient control of a particular stock, commodity, or other asset to allow the price to be manipulated.

Now, the Chinese are currently subsidizing a product, solar panels, so they can undersell their competition, thus forcing them out of business.

Once enough of their competitors have been eliminated, Chinese manufacturers will have "cornered the market", and will then be able to set the world price on the commodity in question.
 
So the Chinese choose to subsidize their solar panel industry, resulting in lower prices for consumers of solar panels.
That's a problem how?

OK, there's a tactic in business called "Cornering the Market".

Here, I'll let Wiki explain it:

In finance, to corner the market is to get sufficient control of a particular stock, commodity, or other asset to allow the price to be manipulated.

Now, the Chinese are currently subsidizing a product, solar panels, so they can undersell their competition, thus forcing them out of business.

Once enough of their competitors have been eliminated, Chinese manufacturers will have "cornered the market", and will then be able to set the world price on the commodity in question.

You're kidding, right?
Let's say the Chinese run all makers of solar panels out of the market by pricing their panels at $150 vs the $200 a normal market price would be. Once they've done that, they re-price their panels to $300. But the market price is still $200. Do you think manufacturers would not seize this opportunity to re-enter the solar panel market, driving the price down to the the market $200?
I mean, this is like Econ 101, Day 1.
 
So the Chinese choose to subsidize their solar panel industry, resulting in lower prices for consumers of solar panels.
That's a problem how?

OK, there's a tactic in business called "Cornering the Market".

Here, I'll let Wiki explain it:

In finance, to corner the market is to get sufficient control of a particular stock, commodity, or other asset to allow the price to be manipulated.

Now, the Chinese are currently subsidizing a product, solar panels, so they can undersell their competition, thus forcing them out of business.

Once enough of their competitors have been eliminated, Chinese manufacturers will have "cornered the market", and will then be able to set the world price on the commodity in question.

You're kidding, right?
Let's say the Chinese run all makers of solar panels out of the market by pricing their panels at $150 vs the $200 a normal market price would be. Once they've done that, they re-price their panels to $300. But the market price is still $200. Do you think manufacturers would not seize this opportunity to re-enter the solar panel market, driving the price down to the the market $200?
I mean, this is like Econ 101, Day 1.


BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

Oh sorry wrong answer...we have some LOVELY parting gifts for you.

What the hell do you think happened to the America electronics industry? American made TVs?

The Japanese spent years "dumping" product into the market below cost in order to drive out competition. Once American competition went away, prices went right back up.



As Japanese televisions poured in to the U.S., the estimated duties climbed to tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. The government collected 1 million dollars in 1972, then, all collections stopped for 6 years. At about this time, Japanese housewives met with the Matsushita company. Japan's consumers had learned how cheap Matsushita televisions were in the U.S. and had come to protest high prices at home. Too often this is overlooked, for a company to sell goods at artificially low prices in one country, it must typically overcharge in an other. Japanese consumers, and U.S. producers were on the same side of this battle. But if U.S. policy makers understood, they showed no sign.

In 1972, Prime Minister Tanaka requested a 1 year delay in all trade disputes. President Nixon agreed.

The government of the United States position I think in the simplest terms, when it looked at the television trade dispute, was that it was an annoyance. It was a problem that ought to be swept under the rug. It was not a problem that the Nixon administration, or the Ford administration, or the Carter administration was willing to confront at the price of an argument with the Japanese government

In 1977, a new man took charge of trade, Robert Strauss. There are now 6 U.S. television manufacturers, compared to 25 when the U.S industry filed its complaint, yet according to Frontline's inquiry, no more dumping duties had been collected, and no reasons given.




http://www.zoklet.net/totse/en/politics/economic_documents/pbsjapan.html
And what did we do about it? Nothing. We just let it happen in the interest of "free trade".

And how many American Television manufacturers are there today?

Element Electronics has announced that it will begin production of flat screen, HD TV's at its factory in Detroit, Michigan in March 2012. This will make Element Electronics the only company assembling TV's in the United States.


HURRAH-- There will once again be USA-Made televisions. | Alliance for American Manufacturing


Just ONE! And its only been in operation for 6 months.
 
Last edited:
Prices for televisions are lower than I ever remember them being, in real terms.
Guess again.

1956_BROADCAST_NEWS-RCA2.JPG


What would a comparable set cost today? How much better would it be, in terms of image, warm up time, and electrical usage?
 
Last edited:
Prices for televisions are lower than I ever remember them being, in real terms.
Guess again.

1956_BROADCAST_NEWS-RCA2.JPG


What would a comparable set cost today? How much better would it be, in terms of image, warm up time, and electrical usage?


Who said they were lower NOW? What the hell are you babbling about?
 
Last edited:
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

Oh sorry wrong answer...we have some LOVELY parting gifts for you.

What the hell do you think happened to the America electronics industry? American made TVs?

The Japanese spent years "dumping" product into the market below cost in order to drive out competition. Once American competition went away, prices went right back up.



As Japanese televisions poured in to the U.S., the estimated duties climbed to tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. The government collected 1 million dollars in 1972, then, all collections stopped for 6 years. At about this time, Japanese housewives met with the Matsushita company. Japan's consumers had learned how cheap Matsushita televisions were in the U.S. and had come to protest high prices at home. Too often this is overlooked, for a company to sell goods at artificially low prices in one country, it must typically overcharge in an other. Japanese consumers, and U.S. producers were on the same side of this battle. But if U.S. policy makers understood, they showed no sign.

In 1972, Prime Minister Tanaka requested a 1 year delay in all trade disputes. President Nixon agreed.

The government of the United States position I think in the simplest terms, when it looked at the television trade dispute, was that it was an annoyance. It was a problem that ought to be swept under the rug. It was not a problem that the Nixon administration, or the Ford administration, or the Carter administration was willing to confront at the price of an argument with the Japanese government

In 1977, a new man took charge of trade, Robert Strauss. There are now 6 U.S. television manufacturers, compared to 25 when the U.S industry filed its complaint, yet according to Frontline's inquiry, no more dumping duties had been collected, and no reasons given.




totse.com | How Japanese Cartels Destroyed US Electronic Industries
And what did we do about it? Nothing. We just let it happen in the interest of "free trade".

And how many American Television manufacturers are there today?

Element Electronics has announced that it will begin production of flat screen, HD TV's at its factory in Detroit, Michigan in March 2012. This will make Element Electronics the only company assembling TV's in the United States.


HURRAH-- There will once again be USA-Made televisions. | Alliance for American Manufacturing


Just ONE! And its only been in operation for 6 months.

Right on with the post.

Oh, and thanks for that link, I have a bunch of friends that have been on the lookout for American-made electronics to buy.
 
Who said they were lower NOW? What the hell are you babbling about?

You did. You wrote that prices went back up after the Japanese conquered the American market. That clearly is not true. Prices are lower today on much better quality TVs than they were 40 years ago.
Ergo it doesnt matter if we dont have a domestic TV industry.
 
Who said they were lower NOW? What the hell are you babbling about?

You did. You wrote that prices went back up after the Japanese conquered the American market. That clearly is not true. Prices are lower today on much better quality TVs than they were 40 years ago.
Ergo it doesnt matter if we dont have a domestic TV industry.


oh...my...god...

and youre serious.

scary.
 
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

Oh sorry wrong answer...we have some LOVELY parting gifts for you.

What the hell do you think happened to the America electronics industry? American made TVs?

The Japanese spent years "dumping" product into the market below cost in order to drive out competition. Once American competition went away, prices went right back up.



As Japanese televisions poured in to the U.S., the estimated duties climbed to tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. The government collected 1 million dollars in 1972, then, all collections stopped for 6 years. At about this time, Japanese housewives met with the Matsushita company. Japan's consumers had learned how cheap Matsushita televisions were in the U.S. and had come to protest high prices at home. Too often this is overlooked, for a company to sell goods at artificially low prices in one country, it must typically overcharge in an other. Japanese consumers, and U.S. producers were on the same side of this battle. But if U.S. policy makers understood, they showed no sign.

In 1972, Prime Minister Tanaka requested a 1 year delay in all trade disputes. President Nixon agreed.

The government of the United States position I think in the simplest terms, when it looked at the television trade dispute, was that it was an annoyance. It was a problem that ought to be swept under the rug. It was not a problem that the Nixon administration, or the Ford administration, or the Carter administration was willing to confront at the price of an argument with the Japanese government

In 1977, a new man took charge of trade, Robert Strauss. There are now 6 U.S. television manufacturers, compared to 25 when the U.S industry filed its complaint, yet according to Frontline's inquiry, no more dumping duties had been collected, and no reasons given.




totse.com | How Japanese Cartels Destroyed US Electronic Industries
And what did we do about it? Nothing. We just let it happen in the interest of "free trade".

And how many American Television manufacturers are there today?

Element Electronics has announced that it will begin production of flat screen, HD TV's at its factory in Detroit, Michigan in March 2012. This will make Element Electronics the only company assembling TV's in the United States.


HURRAH-- There will once again be USA-Made televisions. | Alliance for American Manufacturing


Just ONE! And its only been in operation for 6 months.

Right on with the post.

Oh, and thanks for that link, I have a bunch of friends that have been on the lookout for American-made electronics to buy.

there was another one, but they went bankrupt ( in either 06 or 07 cant remember off the top of my head ), got bought out by Emerson, but were shut down not long after that.
 
Who said they were lower NOW? What the hell are you babbling about?

You did. You wrote that prices went back up after the Japanese conquered the American market. That clearly is not true. Prices are lower today on much better quality TVs than they were 40 years ago.
Ergo it doesnt matter if we dont have a domestic TV industry.


oh...my...god...

and youre serious.

scary.
Go ahjead and explain your position. You've failed to show any ill effects from Japanese companies putting American TV makers out of business. What is the issue here with free trade and globalization?
 
You did. You wrote that prices went back up after the Japanese conquered the American market. That clearly is not true. Prices are lower today on much better quality TVs than they were 40 years ago.
Ergo it doesnt matter if we dont have a domestic TV industry.


oh...my...god...

and youre serious.

scary.
Go ahjead and explain your position. You've failed to show any ill effects from Japanese companies putting American TV makers out of business. What is the issue here with free trade and globalization?



Rabbi,

I dont have the time nor the will to write something that long. I just cant even begin to expain how utterly speechless your ignorant response has made me. Im completely serious.

I mean there comes a point where you realize that arguing with the idiot in front of you is only going to make you dumber in the long run. And your post was that point.
 
Go ahjead and explain your position. You've failed to show any ill effects from Japanese companies putting American TV makers out of business. What is the issue here with free trade and globalization?

Yeah... That would be due to the advances in automation and miniaturization that have been achieved in the interim.

Just like a Computer is no longer the size of a tractor trailer and doesn't cost 5 billion dollars to build...

It doesn't matter if Martians are making them, they're still going to cost less...

Though I imagine shipping costs from Mars would be pretty steep.
 
Before we get tossed out of the "Clean" Debate zone.. Lemme interject a factoid here..

Deflation is not worse than inflation « Between The Balance Sheets


Where is the evidence that changes in nominal prices affect real activity? Television prices, as measured by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, have fallen at an average annualized rate of 6% every year since 1967:

cpi-televisions.png


We made a cardinal mistake in losing the electronics business to the Japanese.. A mistake that we are REPEATING today.. And it has NOTHING to do with dumping or market hanky panky.

We figured we'd GIVE Japan the ticket to manufacture our electronic goodies. We gave them the finished product specs and asked them to simply build it.. Our mindset was --- we'd always be the innovators and designers and salemen and they would just get dirty building stuff for us.

Problem with that is -- HE who manufactures something -- Eventually understands the technology BETTER than the jerks like me who design the stuff. So they didn't NEED US after 20 years or so.

Right now --- stupid American business people are giving the proprietary knowledge and designs to the Chinese to repeat the process.

The alternative to this madness is to turn to AUTOMATED and robotic manufacturing and compete on efficiency.. It's happening in China RIGHT FREAKING NOW.. The guys who assemble for Apple are buying 1 Million robotic assemblers ---- NOT HIRING more cheap labor.. We can stop whining and do something --- or we can just blame politics and business people for being stupid..
 
Last edited:

Forum List

Back
Top