sue lowden opens mouth inserts foot again

[jillian]

What I find amazing is that people who are intelligent don't know how to differentiate between not wanting big government and hatred of all government.

I guess since you think it's ok to limit people's voting based on a wrong assumption that you're also ok with limiting voting for people who are on government assistance.

Rick

Rick, I think the idealogues like this woman and the randians do hate government. and i think they will hold on to their ideology even when it creates or allows evil.

and i was being sarcastic when i said maybe they shouldn't vote.

but... you have to admit, if someone hates government, aren't they more likely to sabotage government with their vote? wouldn't a healthier outlook be to hate bad government... and vote for good government.

what constitutes 'big government' differs depending on whose ox is being gored. i think big government is telling a woman she has no control over her own body or telling me my jewish son has to say christian prayers in school.

 

[hboats]

What I find amazing is that people who are intelligent don't know how to differentiate between not wanting big government and hatred of all government.

I guess since you think it's ok to limit people's voting based on a wrong assumption that you're also ok with limiting voting for people who are on government assistance.

Rick

Rick, I think the idealogues like this woman and the randians do hate government. and i think they will hold on to their ideology even when it creates or allows evil.

I know that's what you think. That's you opinion, and you're entitled to it. But you're not entitled to try to pass your opinion as fact. Do you know for a fact that this woman hates government? Or is that just your opinion? I don't have a problem with people forming and stating opinions, but when they present them as facts there's the problem.

and i was being sarcastic when i said maybe they shouldn't vote.

but... you have to admit, if someone hates government, aren't they more likely to sabotage government with their vote? wouldn't a healthier outlook be to hate bad government... and vote for good government.

And conversely you'd have to admit that when people know that they can just vote for the person that is going to keep them suckling at the teet of government assistance, they're more likely to sabotage "good government" for their own view of what's good for them.

what constitutes 'big government' differs depending on whose ox is being gored. i think big government is telling a woman she has no control over her own body or telling me my jewish son has to say christian prayers in school.

I would agree with you on these points, but I need a little clarification. Who exactly is telling a woman she has no control over her own body? As far as I know abortion is legal up until the third trimester. Which by the way is when a baby can survive on it's own, so at that point is that baby actually part of "her own body?"

Where was your son attending school when he was told he had to say Christian prayers? As far as I know Christian prayers aren't allowed on public school property, even if it's on the student's own time. There are laws passed that Christian students can't even have Bible studies or groups on their own time on school property. Now whose rights are being trampled on? Especially when you consider that public schools in the area I live in are required to set aside time for Muslim students to say their prayers during the school day.

Rick

 

[GHook93]

That barter for healthcare remark and/or belief was beyond moronic! I can't believe that is actually what she presented. Shocking! So I see why questioning her about her beliefs in small government is important. But that is not what this dishonest journalist was doing. What this dishonest journalist was doing was trying to play the race card and present her as a "N#gger" hating bigot.

Sorry that was not journalism, that is lobbying!

And even thought Sue appears to suck, I still prefer her over Reid (or Durbin or Burris for that matter)!

 

[jillian]

I know that's what you think. That's you opinion, and you're entitled to it. But you're not entitled to try to pass your opinion as fact. Do you know for a fact that this woman hates government? Or is that just your opinion? I don't have a problem with people forming and stating opinions, but when they present them as facts there's the problem.

And conversely you'd have to admit that when people know that they can just vote for the person that is going to keep them suckling at the teet of government assistance, they're more likely to sabotage "good government" for their own view of what's good for them.

I don't believe people vote on those bases. In fact, studies show that poor people are least likely to vote. I think that type of mischaracterization

And if what you were saying is true, then why do red states consistently take more federal money than they pay while blue states consistently pay more money than they take. (and yes, that's fact).

I would agree with you on these points, but I need a little clarification. Who exactly is telling a woman she has no control over her own body? As far as I know abortion is legal up until the third trimester. Which by the way is when a baby can survive on it's own, so at that point is that baby actually part of "her own body?"

which is exactly what Roe v Wade holds. and we'd be in agreement that Roe should be the standard. But the pretend populists, once you scratch them, generally come out in favor of government prohibitions.

Where was your son attending school when he was told he had to say Christian prayers? As far as I know Christian prayers aren't allowed on public school property, even if it's on the student's own time. There are laws passed that Christian students can't even have Bible studies or groups on their own time on school property. Now whose rights are being trampled on? Especially when you consider that public schools in the area I live in are required to set aside time for Muslim students to say their prayers during the school day.

Rick

Oh... he hasn't been. But if you read the posts on this board and look at the positions taken by people like palin (who doesn't believe in abortion even in the case of rape or incest and DOES believe in things like prayer in school) then you'll see where my comment came from.

I have no problem with people saying prayers quietly on their own. And I believe we're in fairly close proximity geographically... it's the ORGANIZED prayer I have issue with. I think people can quietly go about their business.

On the other hand, i think if people can't go 8 hours without praying, they should probably be in parochial school.

 

[hboats]

I know that's what you think. That's you opinion, and you're entitled to it. But you're not entitled to try to pass your opinion as fact. Do you know for a fact that this woman hates government? Or is that just your opinion? I don't have a problem with people forming and stating opinions, but when they present them as facts there's the problem.

And conversely you'd have to admit that when people know that they can just vote for the person that is going to keep them suckling at the teet of government assistance, they're more likely to sabotage "good government" for their own view of what's good for them.

I don't believe people vote on those bases. In fact, studies show that poor people are least likely to vote. I think that type of mischaracterization

And if what you were saying is true, then why do red states consistently take more federal money than they pay while blue states consistently pay more money than they take. (and yes, that's fact).

What happens to this premise if you throw out New York State and California from the equation? I'd argue that the reason "blue states" pay more is because these two states are where the biggest metropolitan areas in our country are. Also, I'd wager that farm subsidies has a HUGE impact on federal fund payments to "red states." Now, I don't necessarily agree with all of the farm subsidies, but the facts of the matter are that without them we would not have the level of agriculture that we as a nation enjoy.

I would agree with you on these points, but I need a little clarification. Who exactly is telling a woman she has no control over her own body? As far as I know abortion is legal up until the third trimester. Which by the way is when a baby can survive on it's own, so at that point is that baby actually part of "her own body?"

which is exactly what Roe v Wade holds. and we'd be in agreement that Roe should be the standard. But the pretend populists, once you scratch them, generally come out in favor of government prohibitions.

You'll have to define for me who makes up your "pretend populists." But I'd say you're wrong. I am a conservative Republican, and I don't necessarily want to see Roe v. Wade overturned, I also don't want to see federal funding going to places like Planned Parenthood where their main objective is to talk young women into abortions. I've been on the board of a Pregnancy Center, and I know what happens when even a married woman goes to Planned Parenthood for prenatal advice. A pregnant woman at Planned Parenthood is looked on as nothing more than a potential abortion. Married women who want to have a child are pressured into having an abortion there. I don't want my taxes going to support that kind of "planned parenthood."

Where was your son attending school when he was told he had to say Christian prayers? As far as I know Christian prayers aren't allowed on public school property, even if it's on the student's own time. There are laws passed that Christian students can't even have Bible studies or groups on their own time on school property. Now whose rights are being trampled on? Especially when you consider that public schools in the area I live in are required to set aside time for Muslim students to say their prayers during the school day.

Rick

Oh... he hasn't been. But if you read the posts on this board and look at the positions taken by people like palin (who doesn't believe in abortion even in the case of rape or incest and DOES believe in things like prayer in school) then you'll see where my comment came from.

I have no problem with people saying prayers quietly on their own. And I believe we're in fairly close proximity geographically... it's the ORGANIZED prayer I have issue with. I think people can quietly go about their business.

On the other hand, i think if people can't go 8 hours without praying, they should probably be in parochial school.

Sorry, I assumed that you were posting that as an example of something that you as a Jewish person had been subjected to through your son. I didn't know it was a hypothetical.

I agree with you on your above statements. I don't think there should be any school led prayers or school sanctioned for that matter. I think it's rude for someone to make a spectacle of their prayer/religion. If you want to practice your religion, practice it without shoving it in my face and telling me I'm bigoted if I don't want to see it.

If you want to be in a school that accepts your religious beliefs then you'd be better off in a private school. If you don't want to use that option, that's your choice, but you don't have the right to impose your religion on those around you.

Rick

 

[jillian]

What happens to this premise if you throw out New York State and California from the equation? I'd argue that the reason "blue states" pay more is because these two states are where the biggest metropolitan areas in our country are. Also, I'd wager that farm subsidies has a HUGE impact on federal fund payments to "red states." Now, I don't necessarily agree with all of the farm subsidies, but the facts of the matter are that without them we would not have the level of agriculture that we as a nation enjoy.

As of 2004, these were the states which took the most per dollar contributed (I can't speak to changes over the last 6 years, sorry).

1. D.C. ($6.17)
2. North Dakota ($2.03)
3. New Mexico ($1.89)
4. Mississippi ($1.84)
5. Alaska ($1.82)
6. West Virginia ($1.74)
7. Montana ($1.64)
8. Alabama ($1.61)
9. South Dakota ($1.59)
10. Arkansas ($1.53)

TaxProf Blog: Red States Feed at Federal Trough, Blue States Supply the Feed

If you note, none of those states are the states that one would normally associate with farm subsidies, IMO. The reality is that the greatest amount taken from federal entitlement programs is by white single mothers. That correlates with the poverty levels in the states with the largest deficits and also coordinates fairly well with failures in the educational systems in those states.

These were the states that received the least in federal spending per dollar of taxes paid as of 2004:

1. New Jersey ($0.62)
2. Connecticut ($0.64)
3. New Hampshire ($0.68)
4. Nevada ($0.73)
5. Illinois ($0.77)
6. Minnesota ($0.77)
7. Colorado ($0.79)
8. Massachusetts ($0.79)
9. California ($0.81)
10. New York ($0.81)

TaxProf Blog: Red States Feed at Federal Trough, Blue States Supply the Feed

You'll have to define for me who makes up your "pretend populists." But I'd say you're wrong. I am a conservative Republican, and I don't necessarily want to see Roe v. Wade overturned, I also don't want to see federal funding going to places like Planned Parenthood where their main objective is to talk young women into abortions. I've been on the board of a Pregnancy Center, and I know what happens when even a married woman goes to Planned Parenthood for prenatal advice. A pregnant woman at Planned Parenthood is looked on as nothing more than a potential abortion. Married women who want to have a child are pressured into having an abortion there. I don't want my taxes going to support that kind of "planned parenthood."

you qualify your support for Roe v Wade by using the word 'necessarily'. may i ask why? I use the term pretend populists because i think there are certain people/politicians that are feeding on what they perceive of voter anger and creating an us versus them mentality. when sarah palin talks about 'the pro-america parts of the country'... THAT is pretend populism. as are her bizarre comments about 'reload[ing]'. michelle bachman does the same thing.

I actually think Rand Paul believes what he says... he's just naive in thinking that government shouldn't step in to prevent things like discrimination in public restaurants. It has no basis in reality but its said to appeal to a certain segment of the population.

Sorry, I assumed that you were posting that as an example of something that you as a Jewish person had been subjected to through your son. I didn't know it was a hypothetical.

I agree with you on your above statements. I don't think there should be any school led prayers or school sanctioned for that matter. I think it's rude for someone to make a spectacle of their prayer/religion. If you want to practice your religion, practice it without shoving it in my face and telling me I'm bigoted if I don't want to see it.

If you want to be in a school that accepts your religious beliefs then you'd be better off in a private school. If you don't want to use that option, that's your choice, but you don't have the right to impose your religion on those around you.

Rick

no problem. i didn't make myself clear. i should have been more precise.

and we agree on the subject of religion. I respect everyone's beliefs so long as those beliefs don't hurt anyone else. But I think religion is a private matter

 

[hboats]

you qualify your support for Roe v Wade by using the word 'necessarily'. may i ask why? I use the term pretend populists because i think there are certain people/politicians that are feeding on what they perceive of voter anger and creating an us versus them mentality. when sarah palin talks about 'the pro-america parts of the country'... THAT is pretend populism. as are her bizarre comments about 'reload[ing]'. michelle bachman does the same thing.

I say necessarily because I am anti abortion. However, I don't like there being a law on the matter one way or the other. Like I said, I've been on the board of directors for a teen pregnancy center. It was a Christian run center where abortion was not one of the options available. Don't get me wrong, if a woman came in and her doctor said an abortion would have been necessary to save the mother's life, we gave that mother information on where she could go to have the procedure, but we didn't give information on abortion to the mothers in any other circumstances. They can find that information readily enough elsewhere. We counseled them on adoption or on the options available for them to keep their babies. We also supported the ones who made the choice to keep their babies by having apartments available for them to live in. It was a very good non profit organization, and I'd do it again in a minute if my time freed me up enough to do so.

I actually think Rand Paul believes what he says... he's just naive in thinking that government shouldn't step in to prevent things like discrimination in public restaurants. It has no basis in reality but its said to appeal to a certain segment of the population.

Sorry, I assumed that you were posting that as an example of something that you as a Jewish person had been subjected to through your son. I didn't know it was a hypothetical.

I agree with you on your above statements. I don't think there should be any school led prayers or school sanctioned for that matter. I think it's rude for someone to make a spectacle of their prayer/religion. If you want to practice your religion, practice it without shoving it in my face and telling me I'm bigoted if I don't want to see it.

If you want to be in a school that accepts your religious beliefs then you'd be better off in a private school. If you don't want to use that option, that's your choice, but you don't have the right to impose your religion on those around you.

Rick

no problem. i didn't make myself clear. i should have been more precise.

and we agree on the subject of religion. I respect everyone's beliefs so long as those beliefs don't hurt anyone else. But I think religion is a private matter

I am a religious person, but I don't push my religious beliefs on anyone. If someone comes to me and asks about my religion I don't have a problem talking to them about it, but it's not my place to try to make someone change their mind on religion. I have had great conversations about religion with Muslims where I work about religion. I don't try to convert them, and they know that when we talk all I'm doing is looking for information on their religion and I only talk about mine if they ask about it.

Rick