Subsistence vs Sport Hunting

[jon_berzerk]

I cherish my gun and hunting rights. I eat what I kill. If I didn't love deer and elk meat - I wouldn't hunt them. I hate unethical slob poachers and trophy hunters.

your gun is your right

hunting is a privilege

do you eat that pesky skunk when it burrows a home under your house

yum yum

Hunting is also my right if I follow the law. I understand the semantics.

Is Hunting a Right or a Privilege?

hunting is a privilege

If the state constitutions guarantee the right of its citizens to hunt or fish, it is not a privilege. It is a right.

That's how I look at it. Also, certain other rights enshrined in U.S. and state constitutions can also be denied/revoked.

only by due process

 

[9thIDdoc]

By the same token hunting is just like any other right. We only have those that we demand. I demand the right to hunt.
Constitutions are simply a list of those demands.

 

[ninja007]

hunting big game that is endangered SHOULD be outlawed, PERIOD. No need for it, no purpose except to get these sickos off.

Once these majestic animals are gone in the wild they are GONE. The big cats as you saw in my earlier link are all threatened.. tiger, lion, jaguar, leopard. As well as the cheetah is declining. Not to mention the rhino and elephant.

 

[EverCurious]

Alaska considers hunting kind of both.

Subsistence hunting is considered a right of all Alaskan's, and that is always given priority over any other hunting.

Sport hunting is kind of considered a right, but it is not held above either subsistence hunters, nor proper management of wildlife numbers and such - so in that it could be argued as more a privilege than a right. Although the state will, and has, fought to maintain that we have a right to such sport hunting so long as that wildlife population is healthy - so it's a right, but a... monitored right? or something like that.



That said, we have no control over what is allowable or not in other countries, who the hell do we think we are? If other countries don't want to protect their shit there isn't too much we can do. Best thing we can do is try to put pressure on them to protect critters who are endangered, and there are some successes in that area, but these countries usually don't have the funding to properly manage their wildlife, or sometimes they just don't care. It's unfortunate, but that is /their/ country and frankly not /our/ place to dictate wildlife management rules to.

Even still, the whole uproar is that the lion was baited off the reserve, not that the actual hunt was illegal, lions are legal big game, they are not an endangered species, they are not in and of themselves protected - only the /reserve/ is protected. If the guides did the illegal bating, or agreed to do it, then yea I mean w/e will happen, will happen to the guide there on the legal/criminal front. However, I don't think we should ship an American over to some third world country to face a bullshit outraged court. Do you /really/ want this man thrown into a third world jail, possibly even killed, because you want to believe he /might/ have asked the guide to do something illegal? What if he didn't ask the guide to do it, didn't know that the guide had, what if it was actually illegal poachers that did the bating and this American just happened to be in the area when Ceil went to get their bait? It's not like they monitor the poachers activities well in those countries, certainly not for non-endangered critters, plus it's a huge area to patrol for a government that has little money to begin with (and different priorities often.)

Either way, I can't believe that this American wanted to create an international freak out, so I think he is a victim of circumstance here. If it becomes obvious that the guy asked the guide to do something illegal, then judge him here at home; hell make a new proxy law about illegal sport hunting in foreign countries and fine his ass, put him in jail for it here, w/e. Though again, frankly I've not seen /any/ proof that he pressured or even asked the guide to do anything illegal, and that's first presuming that this American knew the intricacies of the laws in a foreign country. Shit, people come to Alaska and don't know how to make heads or tails of our hunting laws (which can get a bit nuts with all the regions and emergency "stop hunt/fish here" orders and what not heh - see map at bottom Wildlife Conservation Information Centers Alaska Department of Fish and Game


Either way, don't hate the man and sentence him to death because you hate the "idea" of sport hunting. Unfortunately, you're also just going to have to deal with the fact that the USA doesn't rule the world, thus other countries make the decision on if, and how, they support sport hunting. Africa legally sells about 600 lion trophy hunts per year, that is their decision.

 

[EverCurious]

hunting big game that is endangered SHOULD be outlawed, PERIOD. No need for it, no purpose except to get these sickos off.

Once these majestic animals are gone in the wild they are GONE. The big cats as you saw in my earlier link are all threatened.. tiger, lion, jaguar, leopard. As well as the cheetah is declining. Not to mention the rhino and elephant.

I think you might want to read this, it's call population control and it is an important part of wildlife conservation: Winner of rhino hunting auction My 350 000 will help save species - CNN.com

They also recently hunted down a lion in the same area that Ceil was killed in, because that lion went "rogue" he was killing other lions and eating them.

 

[ninja007]

hunting big game that is endangered SHOULD be outlawed, PERIOD. No need for it, no purpose except to get these sickos off.

Once these majestic animals are gone in the wild they are GONE. The big cats as you saw in my earlier link are all threatened.. tiger, lion, jaguar, leopard. As well as the cheetah is declining. Not to mention the rhino and elephant.

I think you might want to read this, it's call population control and it is an important part of wildlife conservation: Winner of rhino hunting auction My 350 000 will help save species - CNN.com

They also recently hunted down a lion in the same area that Ceil was killed in, because that lion went "rogue" he was killing other lions and eating them.

thats called nature- you dont interfere in it. If the lions are killed off- guess what? huge overpopulation of gazelle, buffalo, hyenas, antelope etc etc...

 

[ninja007]

hunting big game that is endangered SHOULD be outlawed, PERIOD. No need for it, no purpose except to get these sickos off.

Once these majestic animals are gone in the wild they are GONE. The big cats as you saw in my earlier link are all threatened.. tiger, lion, jaguar, leopard. As well as the cheetah is declining. Not to mention the rhino and elephant.

I think you might want to read this, it's call population control and it is an important part of wildlife conservation: Winner of rhino hunting auction My 350 000 will help save species - CNN.com

They also recently hunted down a lion in the same area that Ceil was killed in, because that lion went "rogue" he was killing other lions and eating them.

i think you might want to read what i posted. the pic of the 4 big cats pop. getting dangerously low.

 

[EverCurious]

hunting big game that is endangered SHOULD be outlawed, PERIOD. No need for it, no purpose except to get these sickos off.

Once these majestic animals are gone in the wild they are GONE. The big cats as you saw in my earlier link are all threatened.. tiger, lion, jaguar, leopard. As well as the cheetah is declining. Not to mention the rhino and elephant.

I think you might want to read this, it's call population control and it is an important part of wildlife conservation: Winner of rhino hunting auction My 350 000 will help save species - CNN.com

They also recently hunted down a lion in the same area that Ceil was killed in, because that lion went "rogue" he was killing other lions and eating them.

i think you might want to read what i posted. the pic of the 4 big cats pop. getting dangerously low.

I've looked through the thread, you posted no link, merely "said" they were threatened and again, you are mistaken.

See Species List Endangered Vulnerable and Threatened Animals WWF

I think you are perhaps mis-understanding the differences between "sub-species" endangerment and "generic names"? For example;

The Amur Leopard is critically endangered, but it's a sub-species found only in Southern Asia, not found in Africa.
The South China Tiger as well, that is another rare sub-species found only in China, not in Africa.
Sumatran Tiger, again critically endangered sub-species of Southern Asia, not in Africa.

Then we have the endangered sub-species:

Amur Tiger, again Southern Asia, not in Africa.
Bengal Tiger found in India, China, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan - not Africa.
Indochinese Tiger, Laso and Vietnam not Africa.
Malayan Tiger found only on the southern tip of Thailand - not in Africa.
The Snow Leopard, mostly Western China, Mongolia, etc. - not in Africa.
There is an "endangered Tiger," which would be species, Panthera Tigris, the specific populations that are endangered are located in Asia (Amur-Heilong, Himalayas, Sumatra, etc.,) not in Africa

Jaguar's are near threatened and found only in South America, not in Africa.

( Edit: I was extremely surprised to see that Cheetah's have been taken off the list, that's awesome! )


So I mean saying "tigers" are "threatened" isn't the truth. Specific populations in specific area's are threatened, or endangered, or even critically endangered, yes. But not the ones in Africa.

Africa actually does really well working with other countries for conservation, unlike say China and Asia. You'll also find that the vast majority of those species of big cats are jungle cats, and their habitat is being torn down to make room for the huge populations in that area. Africa's species conservation concerns are with their region specific sub-species; elephant, black and white rhinos, and a number of others that are /only/ found in those areas (or yea unfortunately have been hunted in the past to threatened/endangered status.)

Again, the only reason this lion kill was illegal is because the cat was baited off the reserve, that is the /only/ reason it's an issue - and it is an issue, illegal poaching activaties like that are extremely damaging to /all/ species on the park, and perhaps more so a male pride lion - after all when the new male comes in to take over, they will kill /all/ the cubs, additionally male lions fighting for the right to take over that pride can easily kill each other (all it takes is maiming the "loser" and he's pretty much fucked cause he won't have a pride of lionesses to hunt for him, or protect him from say hyena's.) More critically, this also sets back and/or sets up a path that messes up the very carefully maintained (so-called "natural") balance of predator and prey numbers that reserve parks like that maintain for the health of all animals in the park.

Which pretty much what the article I'd linked is an example of; taking out the older rhinos, even though they are critically endangered, will be good for the species in the long run. It's not just about the "numbers right now" for long range viability of a species survival. If it was just about that, then we'd just clone them and/or do full on induced pregnancies (like the pandas for example) The ultimate goal of species conservation is not /numbers/ it is maintaining the species ability to survive on its own, which includes no only the species itself, but the habitat, the predators/prey and that "natural" balance.

That does /not/ mean that we /shouldn't/ hunt them, it means that we /regulate/ hunting them. African, hell nearly all, sport hunting outfits/companies are not stupid like they were in the past, there is no longer a "humans are more important," or a "animals will be fine" mentality. The vast, vast, majority of them realize that conservation is good for /them/ too. It means their business can continue to be viable as well. In Africa, and Alaska, such companies work very closely with the conservation groups and/or government to ensure they're not over hunting, that they're not causing serious harm to the species they hunt. I can't say for sure with Africa, but in Alaska, sport hunting outfits /pride themselves/ on working with conservation efforts, if they didn't then we Alaskan's would run them out of the state. We learned from the fate of species in the lower 48 and we refuse to make the same mistakes. Africa, has a very similar situation between North and South Africa and as far as I know nearly every country over there has been very actively involved in both restoring those endangered species, as well as maintaining their healthy species. China and Asia... not so much unfortunately.