Stupid or lying, which is it?

[Peejay]

Note that even if we stimulate production now, a significant amount of the production stimulated will happen in some other land ...some land where they still make stuff.

When I was a boy, American was a nation run by citizens who worked in factories and MADE STUFF...stuff that they bought and sold to each other.

That generation had suvived through the last great BANKER'S depression, and they'd just fought the war for their very existence against the Axis FASCIST powers.

That generation clearly understood what it meant to be a citizen of a nation and they understood that the nation's fate and theirs were tied together.

Then my generation and those that followed became a nation of consumers rather than citizens

Bingo. All of these other factors are meaningless. Sure there are tons of reasons, manipulations, misrepresentations and such to blame but why did anyone endeavor manipulate or misrepresent assets ? Because there was less and less actual product. Money = product. The greedy and the spoiled forget about product and focused on money without the simple realization that one does not exist without the other. When this began to make itself evident, rather than any movement to invest in production, there were hoards of the powerful, wealthy and greedy who moved to manipulate and misrepresent product. That's worse than merely speculating on product. Hell, there was little left to actual speculate on.

When people on boards like these tell me that they care more about buying their shirts cheaply than the overall wellbeing of the nation's working class, I know that this nation is now so populated with spoiled, rather stupid children, and that the society is bound to unravel.

We either care about this nation we either understand that we all must sacrifice somewhat to make it work, or this society goes down. It's really that simple.

Obviously not enough of us understand that being a citizen is a birthright, but one that comes with responsibilities to THIS NATION...not as consumers, but to its CITIZENS.

Our leaders of late, have been nothing but selfish pigs and their attitude has become the zietgiest of our time.

And this is what I like so much about the Carter doctrine. He told everyone that sacrifices had to be made for the future. He told everyone, THIS IS GOING TO HURT. When it did hurt and when the sacrifices were there to be made, no one was willing to make them . They chose to cry and whine and complain until they got what they wanted: RIGHT NOW. WE WANT IT RIGHT NOW. Future be damned. So, you all enjoying this future ? Looking forward to not mbeing able to afford fuel and no alternatives in reasonable sight ? You asked for it.

When Bush the Idiot wasn't removed from office at that point, it should have been apparent to all of us what total incompetents were in CONGRESS, too.

It's taken nearly fifty years of economically destructive policies on the part of the master class, but the selfish bastards have broken the Republic's economic back, folks.

Some of you believe this was purely an organic outcome, and that it was not expected.

I personally cannot believe that.

Why?

Because far too many of us who were not in power knew an economic meltdown was inevitable.

Again, spot on. I'm no wizard and this has been evident to me for over a decade. When my local bank didn't have the cash to give me when closing an account of $15k ten years ago, something wasn't right. I started looking at the numbers and they don't add up. You don't have to be an economist to figure it out. In fact, it helps not to be an economist with a head full of abstract ideas about robbing Peter to pay Paul. The numbers don't add up. The "money" being loaned didn't exist. If you can't give me $15K from your vault exactly how in the hell did you loan $200k in mortages that same day ? You didn't have the damned money. You just credited some numbers from one sheet to another. A vast swath of Americans in the finance business have been making a killing from absolutely nothing. Producing hard cash into their own pockets not with hard currency but with numbers manipulated on spread sheets. But the profits ? The interest ? When you start drawing that out in real, hard cash, there is no hiding the game. As profits sky rocketed in the finance business and fell in the business of actual production, there can be no good ending. The economy becomes top heavy with people who contribute nothing of hard tangible value. They move money around and skim profits. It's a great trick but it can't last. The money represents product. It's that simple. At some point the actual hard curency will balance against product. There is no way to fool the beast forever.

The FUNDAMENTALS -- you remember those fundamentals, right? Those are the economic things that people like Bush II and McCain kneejerkingly kept telling us were sound? -- ARE NOT RIGHT.

The Imbalance in our trade is not a minor prick in the economy

It is a bleeding arterial wound.

Because not ONLY ismoney leaving our shores, but those imports represent TENS OF MILLIONS OF JOBS that American do not HAVE.

One had to have been completely bamboozled by the economic priests to think that isn't the problem that is at the root of the current economic meltdown.

Everybody had been told by ROSS PEROT that this was a disasterous policy.

Remember him?

He was characterized as a nutter, remember?

And that is EXACTLY what has been done to millions of American, folks.

Anyone who wouldn't SWEAR THAT THE EMPORER HAD MARVELOUS CLOTHES was dismissed, disenfranchised, marginized from political power, or otherwise PUNISHED for not swearing to the validity of the LIES that the master class was selling the unwashed.

Yep. And it's time to pay the piper. Fortunately, this will not hurt the poor so much as the greedy folks who have participated in the sham. Watch what you say to someone with nothing, it's almost like having it all. I feel better everyday !

 

[Sinatra]

If Obama wants to STIMULATE the Country and its Economy then spend money rebuilding our Industries. Rebuild the Steel Industry like we did for Germany after WW2. Rebuild the textiles Industry. Rebuild the numerous manufacturing industries we have let slip away.

Did you know we do not even make the new light bulbs in this country? In 2012 they are mandatory and we do not even produce a single one of them.

Instead of throwing money away to other Countries, CREATE new Industry and create new JOBS. Rebuild the shipbuilding industry. Modernize the power infrastructure. Build Nuclear power plants.

Absolutely 100% correct.

If America wishes to become a "builder of things" once again, it MUST make it both easier, and profitable, to be an industry in the United States.

I read a report a few days back regarding the infrastructure portion of the stimulus bill (which is a much smaller portion than originally proposed) that stated the vast majority of those "shovel-ready" projects won't likely begin for 2-5 years - some as far out as 7 years, because of all the regulatory hoops each project must get through.

Add the hoops to build a new nuclear plant facility, or a clean-burning coal plant, or a new natural gas line, and on and on and on...this country has been strangling its own potential and borrowing against that potential for far too long.

Time to unleash this nation's true capacity - create sustainable real living wage jobs, reduce our dependence on foreign energy, allow more people to join the ranks of the UPPER middle class, and desist in this class envy warfare that has been the foundation of Democrat policy for the last three decades.

And Republicans - you gotta pull your heads out of your asses as well and stop giving lip service to the ideas of personal freedom, prosperity, and opportunity, by actually fighting for those values. You had six years of political domination and all you did was waste it a bloated budget deficit, expansions of social programs, and questionable war...

 

[garyd]

Sorry the government did not change state and local regulations and the problems lay as much with them as with the Feds this time around. Sure is a lot of bull; shit put out by cluless people in this thread begininning with the first poster who wouldn't recognize the truth if it punched him between the eyes. And then the Populist cetered showed up and confused the issue even further. People didn't sarve to during the Great Depression not5 beause of Roosevelt and his kitchen cabinets lame and increasingly Fascist programs but rather because in the 1930's this was still very much and agrarian society. Een a good many city folks still had gardens where possible.

 

[Agnapostate]

Well FDR's New Deal certainly prolonged the Great Depression, which Austrian economists have been saying for years.

That's a strong indicator of its inaccuracy.

 

[garyd]

Yes we did Edit and on averge they lasted between six months and a year. That great depression lasted for all practical purposed more than a decade. Sorry you can't rebuild the steel industry the combination of Uniuons and internatioanl treaties will totally prevent anything meaningful in that regard.

 

[Annie]

Yes we did Edit and on averge they lasted between six months and a year. That great depression lasted for all practical purposed more than a decade. Sorry you can't rebuild the steel industry the combination of Uniuons and internatioanl treaties will totally prevent anything meaningful in that regard.

If this humoungous 'stimulous' bill was geared towards retooling the auto, steel, mining, and new rail industries, I might be convinced. Those industries made huge mistakes, but if with help they would reconfigure, millions of jobs could be created.

It's not. It's a plan to put in plans that the Dems think will make a better society. More power to them, but stimulus it's not.

 

[garyd]

Again the Unions won't let you retool union contracts so that GM Ford and Chrysler can be competitive,
The same is true with the steel industry and international treaties won't let you subsidise major industries.