Study Shows Religion Has A Negative Correlation to Social Functionality

[Hagbard Celine]

I doubt that we can create a scientific and statistical study of what has made America so wealthy and powerful. I think that many factors have influenced America. The protestant work ethic is probably one such factor. Another factor may be slave labor. Another factor may be the fertile land that was practically taken from those who were here before the European immigrants arrived. There are probably many more factors too.

You're right. I think our culture (western) culture is the variable that gives us good results. Western cultural ideals have been proven to be the best way for humans to live successfully and peacefully together on this planet. When applied wholeheartedly, see Japan, Western ideals can bring people from living in grass huts to the high standards of living we enjoy here, in Europe, in Japan and in other parts of the world where Western culture has been used as the framework for society there. Christianity is just a facet of the culture, it isn't the reason we are successful. If you said Christianity is the reason we're successful, you'd have to say the genocide of the Indians, tobacco and slavery are the reasons we're successful. They're just facets of the culture. Part of our history. Ninjas, sushi and Pockey are the reasons Japan is successful.

 

[Bullypulpit]

That's also known as pro-homosexual agenda, liberals, and the KKK.
etc...

Touchy...aren't you. Particularly since I was discussing religion in general, not any religion in particular.

 

[Bullypulpit]

This happens when the definition of "tolerance" is changed (in usage) to mean "Embracing MY point of view."

And such is most definitely NOT my definition of tolerance.

<blockquote>Main Entry: <b>tol·er·ance</b>
Pronunciation: 'tä-l&-r&n(t)s, 'täl-r&n(t)s
Function: noun

<b>2 a</b> : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : TOLERATION

-Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary-</blockquote>

So long as one's views do not encourage or advocate for the harm of oneself or others, I have no issue with those views or that person.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

And such is most definitely NOT my definition of tolerance.

<blockquote>Main Entry: <b>tol·er·ance</b>
Pronunciation: 'tä-l&-r&n(t)s, 'täl-r&n(t)s
Function: noun

<b>2 a</b> : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : TOLERATION

-Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary-</blockquote>

So long as one's views do not encourage or advocate for the harm of oneself or others, I have no issue with those views or that person.

Using definitions, logic and those queer little bits we like to call "facts" doesn't work on this board. Or haven't you been paying attention? I know I haven't.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Conservatism is also a faith in your definition of the word, however I've seen you and others who share your point of view adhere to much stricter definitions when it suits your side of the argument. I could replace the words "Liberals" and "Homophiles" with "Conservatives" and "Neo-con Christians" just as you did in the post above and it would have the same meaning. There's a radical for every ideology. That's nothing new. Is this post just a soapbox sermon about your chosen radical groups to hate? "Homophiles" and "Liberals?" I take a small amount of offense with the latter. I consider myself a person with liberal views and though I may seem a bit pushy at times on this board, I certainly don't try to force my views onto others in real life. I think your hositility is a little over the top and your views about "Liberals" are myopic.

"Soapbox sermon" has my vote.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Using definitions, logic and those queer little bits we like to call "facts" doesn't work on this board. Or haven't you been paying attention? I know I haven't.

Nah...I haven't been paying attention either.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

So basically this guy compares america and it's faults to other countries, and then out of a long list of differences, decides that it's religion? That's a bit like seeing a red car broken down on the side of the road while blue cars whiz by, and then deciding that red paint makes your car more unreliable.

Indeed, in my study of the bible, I've read that it supports a "chosen one superiority", wherein the "chosen ones" have the right to annihilate the "non-chosen" ones.

Really, where?

 

[dmp]

Touchy...aren't you. Particularly since I was discussing religion in general, not any religion in particular.

And I was discussing most ANY group of people who share beliefs.

(shrug).

 

[Nienna]

And such is most definitely NOT my definition of tolerance.

<blockquote>Main Entry: <b>tol·er·ance</b>
Pronunciation: 'tä-l&-r&n(t)s, 'täl-r&n(t)s
Function: noun

<b>2 a</b> : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : TOLERATION

-Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary-</blockquote>

So long as one's views do not encourage or advocate for the harm of oneself or others, I have no issue with those views or that person.

That's cool, Bully... I kinda feel the same way, myself, although I do feel that many people think slightingly of Christianity, just as some do of homosexuals, ethnic people, etc. REAL respect seems in short supply.

 

[musicman]

Post-Christian Europe is a soft, spoiled child. He doesn't believe in anything, because he has been taught that he doesn't have to. His tough, "dysfunctional" neighbor across the waves has - for the last sixty years - done all his heavy lifting for him. He is, as a consequence, largely irrelevant to the principal struggle of our age, except as enabler and victim. Oh - and loud, catcalling sideline critic of his only real hope for survival.

It is ludicrous, therefore, to compare Post-Christian Europe and the United States as co-equals in this matter. Post-Christian Europe's "more secular, pro-evolution democracies" exist only by the good graces of a wide-awake, battle-ready United States; they'd have otherwise been crushed under the Soviet heel decades ago - and appear resigned to a similar fate regarding the new global tyranny, Islamofascism.

One pictures a father coming home from a day in the coal mines, and being cautioned not to get too near his fat little children, for fear of dirtying the fancy clothes his labor has bought them - or, worse - infecting their genteel minds with his crass ideas about work.

 

[CivilLiberty]

Originally Posted by CivilLiberty
Indeed, in my study of the bible, I've read that it supports a "chosen one superiority", wherein the "chosen ones" have the right to annihilate the "non-chosen" ones.


Really, where?

Old Testament. Ever read it? I have. It's one of the most bigoted, racist, self-righteous piles of crud I have ever read. It's an anachronism, obsolete for modern society. It is of interest perhaps as a historical document, but otherwise the Old Testament is no more valid than Mein Kampf as a "guide for society".

The New Testament is an all together different matter, and I am NOT referring to the teachings of Christ - IMO, the new testament is incompatible with the old, and I have little to no respect for those that hold the old testament up as some form of valid social document - it is not.


A

 

[Rico]

You're right. I think our culture (western) culture is the variable that gives us good results. Western cultural ideals have been proven to be the best way for humans to live successfully and peacefully together on this planet. When applied wholeheartedly, see Japan, Western ideals can bring people from living in grass huts to the high standards of living we enjoy here, in Europe, in Japan and in other parts of the world where Western culture has been used as the framework for society there. Christianity is just a facet of the culture, it isn't the reason we are successful. If you said Christianity is the reason we're successful, you'd have to say the genocide of the Indians, tobacco and slavery are the reasons we're successful. They're just facets of the culture. Part of our history. Ninjas, sushi and Pockey are the reasons Japan is successful.

You are forgetting something here. Christianity, up until the period of the enlightenment, which was, of course, coexistent with the age of discovery and the accompanying spread of Western culture, WAS Western culture. If anything exemplified and held the West together it was Christendom. Only the nihilist/agnostic/athiest would argue that Christianity was only a facet of Western culture. A facet of Western culture would be, for example, the influence of Greco/Romanism in architecture. Christianity, especially in western Europe and England, is inseparable from the society. The Protestant work ethic is one reason, and a very important and ongoing reason, for the advancement of the United States. Take a short look at Europe even today. Which countries represent healthy economies? The Catholic nations of southern Europe or the Protestant nations of northern Europe?

 

[mattskramer]

You are forgetting something here. Christianity, up until the period of the enlightenment, which was, of course, coexistent with the age of discovery and the accompanying spread of Western culture, WAS Western culture. If anything exemplified and held the West together it was Christendom. Only the nihilist/agnostic/athiest would argue that Christianity was only a facet of Western culture. A facet of Western culture would be, for example, the influence of Greco/Romanism in architecture. Christianity, especially in western Europe and England, is inseparable from the society. The Protestant work ethic is one reason, and a very important and ongoing reason, for the advancement of the United States. Take a short look at Europe even today. Which countries represent healthy economies? The Catholic nations of southern Europe or the Protestant nations of northern Europe?

Slavery was also part of western culture. The taking of fertile lands from the “Indians” was also part of western culture. Hard work played a part. It is my belief that the belief in god played a part in America’s success but it was a relatively small part.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

Old Testament. Ever read it? I have. It's one of the most bigoted, racist, self-righteous piles of crud I have ever read. It's an anachronism, obsolete for modern society. It is of interest perhaps as a historical document, but otherwise the Old Testament is no more valid than Mein Kampf as a "guide for society".

The New Testament is an all together different matter, and I am NOT referring to the teachings of Christ - IMO, the new testament is incompatible with the old, and I have little to no respect for those that hold the old testament up as some form of valid social document - it is not.

No, I haven't actually. The NT was pretty easy reading but the OT was harder to follow. I'm not qualified to defend it or attack it, although it seems to me that the NT would supercede it in the case of any contradiction.

 

[Hobbit]

Old Testament. Ever read it? I have. It's one of the most bigoted, racist, self-righteous piles of crud I have ever read. It's an anachronism, obsolete for modern society. It is of interest perhaps as a historical document, but otherwise the Old Testament is no more valid than Mein Kampf as a "guide for society".

Really? Are we talking the same book here? The Israelites went through more slavery/conquest cycles than any other civilization I've ver heard of. Their faith was about as steadfast as a pile of feathers. I think the point of them as the 'chosen race' was not because they were somehow superior, but instead to show that God could lift even these people above where they were if they'd just have faith in him. I mean, which is the greater masterpiece, making a gormet meal out of filet mignon, artichoke hearts, and truffles or making a gormet meal out of balogna, sour cream, and collard greens?

 

[Rico]

Slavery was also part of western culture. The taking of fertile lands from the “Indians” was also part of western culture. Hard work played a part. It is my belief that the belief in god played a part in America’s success but it was a relatively small part.

Then embrace your belief, however incorrect it may be. Slavery was a southern economic system and would not explain the predominance of the north's economy. "Taking" lands from those who cannot defend them is as old as mankind itself. Slavery contributed NOTHING to post civil war America when the economy and birth of superpower status began. If it is your intention to argue that the subversion of the native cultures was responsible for American success I would point out that the Spaniards not only "took" the land they "exterminated" whole populations of natives with abandon. Yet the Spanish influenced portion of the Americas has ALWAYS lagged far behind the United States. The Protestant work ethic and God fearing men and women affecting history? Me thinks undoubtedly, and most demonstrably, so.

 

[mattskramer]

Then embrace your belief, however incorrect it may be. Slavery was a southern economic system and would not explain the predominance of the north's economy. "Taking" lands from those who cannot defend them is as old as mankind itself. Slavery contributed NOTHING to post civil war America when the economy and birth of superpower status began. If it is your intention to argue that the subversion of the native cultures was responsible for American success I would point out that the Spaniards not only "took" the land they "exterminated" whole populations of natives with abandon. Yet the Spanish influenced portion of the Americas has ALWAYS lagged far behind the United States. The Protestant work ethic and God fearing men and women affecting history? Me thinks undoubtedly, and most demonstrably, so.

I don’t deny that hard work done by people who believed in the existence of Christ had a positive influence in the growth of American power. Manifest Destiny made its contribution to American power. I just doubt that it had as much of an impact as many people would have me believe. I believe that slavery, though ended years ago, gave America a “head start” in its infancy. Also, it was good that the American land (taken from the Indians) was so fertile as opposed to the land of other nations. Again, I am not totally discounting the so-called “Judeo-Christian work ethic”. I just don’t think that it had that great of an influence. I guess that we agree to disagree.

 

[Rico]

I don’t deny that hard work done by people who believed in the existence of Christ had a positive influence in the growth of American power. Manifest Destiny made its contribution to American power. I just doubt that it had as much of an impact as many people would have me believe. I believe that slavery, though ended years ago, gave America a “head start” in its infancy. Also, it was good that the American land (taken from the Indians) was so fertile as opposed to the land of other nations. Again, I am not totally discounting the so-called “Judeo-Christian work ethic”. I just don’t think that it had that great of an influence. I guess that we agree to disagree.

Then we agree to disagree. One thing I believe we can both agree on is what a blessing it is to live in the United States and be an American. Take care.