Student Suspended For Sexual Harrassment - Wearing A Costume To Another School's Prom

[dilloduck]

You tell me cause thats what your advocating.

No--I'm advocating that society continue to take a role in raising morally healty children.

And who is saying that porn is out there knocking on your door trying to force you to watch it?

I never said that

Newsflash. It is impossible. Try telling a pedophile not to rape kids. Try telling a murderer not to kill people. Try telling a kidnapper not to kidnap kids. Will they say, oh i never saw it that way before? NO! These bad things are out there. All you can do as a society is lock up those that commit these crimes. All you can do as a parent is to teach kids to recognize these kinds of people and stay away from them. You can't be there to hold your kids hand the whole way. ITs impossible. Do you tell your kids to call for you every time they encounter a person they think is bad or do you tell them to recognize a bad person and react accordingly?

Arresting sex criminals is societies way of protecting children. Are you saying they should quit and just leave it up to the parents?

Don't live in the neighborhood with XXX stores lined up and down. Move to the neighborhood full of churches. If a neighborhood decides to allow a XXX store/theater in their area then dont complain when the majority said they have no problem with it. ITs alot easier for 1 person to move then for that one person to move everyone else around them out.

Cool--then tell the one person who can't stand hearing "under God" in the pledge to move out of the country.

Which is bullshit. Why do a minority of people want to tell the majority of people, who have no problem living their lives peacefully, how to live their lives? It doesnt effect your life AT ALL. Someone looking at porn or going to a pornographic theater does not effect your life. If anything you should be happy. There will be more room in heaven since all these people are sinners. So why are you complaining?

Keep it in the theaters--keep it in private homes. Don't try to play me out as a prude because you would be sorely mistaken. I think porn has it's place and so do millions of others, including atheists.

Society bears no such responsibilty. In a true Darwinian environment, the weak would not survive. Instead we have the weak being carried by the strong which in turn creates more weak and fewer strong. So what do we do when society becomes completely weak and the strong die off

?

excuse me--I should have said successful societies. Hedonistic societies crumble from within.

And who then decides what is good for society and what does no harm. Creating laws that eliminate a harmless item for the sake of the children does not HELP society. It merely hinders it and pushes it closer to totalitarianism. You are so fearful of the society that exists now, imagine if someone enacted laws that made it legal for people to run naked through the streets and have sex in your front lawn? Then they pushed it a step further. What if they outlawed prayer as something that was hurting society? What if a minority felt that prayer and churches were the ultimate evil in our society (which some do) and were determined to outlaw all of it? Would that be good for society if they said it was? Or is your determination of what is good for society the only one that matters?

I'm not sure who really makes these decisions but they are made ALL THE TIME. How about a big billboard on the main street of your town with a couple having sex. Harmless in your opinion, right? Well then why in the hell don't you put one up? They already HAVE made prayer illegal in some public places. What the hell are you talking about?

Thought like yours, dillo is dangerous. You allow a vocal minority to strip away basic liberties for the "good of society" or "to protect the children" when most of soceity is getting along just fine without any restrictions. They are finding their way to live their life wholesomely without the help of governmental laws. Then if the tables are turned as is the case with these atheists, your not so quick to allow the minority the right to tell society what to do. Which way is it dillo? Minority telling people what to do or letting people decide what is right and what is wrong based on what they believe and leaving the government out of it?

Porn is a basic liberty? Nambla says boy/man sex is a basic liberty too. You support that? If you friend had a son and said "hey--would you try to stop this organization to help protect my child" would you do it? Or would you say "tough shit--ain't my kid"

 

[dilloduck]

Sigh. You come out of left field with these things.

You are arguing that it is the parents job only to protect kids. So why are we putting porn filters on school computers. Those kids have a right to see anything they want, right. They need to "see what's out there" right. You all bull shitting yourself if you think porn should be open for all to see.

 

[Annie]

You tell me cause thats what your advocating.

No--I'm advocating that society continue to take a role in raising morally healty children.



I never said that



Arresting sex criminals is societies way of protecting children. Are you saying they should quit and just leave it up to the parents?





Cool--then tell the one person who can't stand hearing "under God" in the pledge to move out of the country.





Keep it in the theaters--keep it in private homes. Don't try to play me out as a prude because you would be sorely mistaken. I think porn has it's place and so do millions of others, including atheists.




?

excuse me--I should have said successful societies. Hedonistic societies crumble from within.


I'm not sure who really makes these decisions but they are made ALL THE TIME. How about a big billboard on the main street of your town with a couple having sex. Harmless in your opinion, right? Well then why in the hell don't you put one up? They already HAVE made prayer illegal in some public places. What the hell are you talking about?

Thought like yours, dillo is dangerous. You allow a vocal minority to strip away basic liberties for the "good of society" or "to protect the children" when most of soceity is getting along just fine without any restrictions. They are finding their way to live their life wholesomely without the help of governmental laws. Then if the tables are turned as is the case with these atheists, your not so quick to allow the minority the right to tell society what to do. Which way is it dillo? Minority telling people what to do or letting people decide what is right and what is wrong based on what they believe and leaving the government out of it?

Porn is a basic liberty? Nambla says boy/man sex is a basic liberty too. You support that? If you friend had a son and said "hey--would you try to stop this organization to help protect my child" would you do it? Or would you say "tough shit--ain't my kid"[/QUOTE]


If there are porn shops near your neighborhood, that is a zoning problem for you. Go to the city council meetings or move to a neighborhood where the people care enough to do so.

As for the filters on the school computers, it's ridiculous for any schools above 5th grade. The kids need to be able to search for subjects such as 'Lucifer', 'sex organs', and 'holocaust'. Many of the programs at schools block these kind of searches. Why? They will bring up hate and porno sites. Do kids know how to avoid them? Yes, if they are taught. The school should also make sure the adult in charge can access all the students screens. There should be set rules on anyone staying at inappropriate sites.

 

[dilloduck]

Porn is a basic liberty? Nambla says boy/man sex is a basic liberty too. You support that? If you friend had a son and said "hey--would you try to stop this organization to help protect my child" would you do it? Or would you say "tough shit--ain't my kid"

I

f there are porn shops near your neighborhood, that is a zoning problem for you. Go to the city council meetings or move to a neighborhood where the people care enough to do so.

I'm speaking theoretically here K and I know how to handle improper behavior. Moving because someone tries to cram their immorality on me is JUST as ridiculous as someone having to move because the Pentacostals are bothering them.

As for the filters on the school computers, it's ridiculous for any schools above 5th grade. The kids need to be able to search for subjects such as 'Lucifer', 'sex organs', and 'holocaust'. Many of the programs at schools block these kind of searches. Why? They will bring up hate and porno sites. Do kids know how to avoid them? Yes, if they are taught. The school should also make sure the adult in charge can access all the students screens. There should be set rules on anyone staying at inappropriate sites.

Why school rules? Insein seems to feel as if the parents should handle prepare kids for this kind of stuff and accept their right to look at it.

 

[dilloduck]

WTF are you talking about. The V-chip and PC filters are tools for parents to use to control what their kids see. It is incumbent on the parents to use those tools however. You seem to be saying that in your ideal world, you and others who share the same taste in entertainment would render the V-chip and PC filters obsolete by choosing what we all get to watch. If it's all the same to you, no thanks!

If you feel as if society should have no role in shaping the morality of Americas' youth then you have a hell of a lot of laws to repeal. Why do I get the feeling EVEN YOU would have to admit that some of those laws need to be there?

 

[Annie]

I

I'm speaking theoretically here K and I know how to handle improper behavior. Moving because someone tries to cram their immorality on me is JUST as ridiculous as someone having to move because the Pentacostals are bothering them.



Why school rules? Insein seems to feel as if the parents should handle prepare kids for this kind of stuff and accept their right to look at it.

I don't think Insein or I are arguing for 'no rules.' You are just trying to cause an issue where none should exist. As for myself, I think that parents SHOULD do their part to help their children respect themselves and others enough not to show up to a jr. high dance dressed as a penis. I think that the parents of the student who made such a bad choice, should be at the very least, be made to feel that in this case, their child was WRONG. Get that? A value judgement!

In order for parents to raise their children positively, they do need schools/community that will care for the cases like the penis dresser and his parents that seem to think that good grades trump all else. I guess that is what I liked about the Long Island parochial high school cancelling the 'school sponsored' prom. They are well aware that the parents will field something, but the only thing the school will be henceforth associated with is one that you would be happy to see your son or daughter at.

If I take my child/grandchild to the 7-11, I do not expect to see the Hustler centerfold. I don't, it doesn't happen. Britteny's belly? Yeah, but we'll cope.
As I posted before, I tried to provide my kids with a variety of the arts and ways to interact with others. While I could gag at the posters my college sons have hung on their room walls, they didn't do so at home. When I was visiting, they had 'covered them', but I peeked. Their response, "Mom, ya gotta go along, besides, I'm over 18..."

 

[dilloduck]

I don't think Insein or I are arguing for 'no rules.' You are just trying to cause an issue where none should exist. As for myself, I think that parents SHOULD do their part to help their children respect themselves and others enough not to show up to a jr. high dance dressed as a penis. I think that the parents of the student who made such a bad choice, should be at the very least, be made to feel that in this case, their child was WRONG. Get that? A value judgement!

There most certainly are claims made here that the parents should be the only ones responsible for a childs' morality. I disagree and our society already has enacted measures to help. What do mean "none should exist" ? Someone felt strongly enough to post it.

In order for parents to raise their children positively, they do need schools/community that will care for the cases like the penis dresser and his parents that seem to think that good grades trump all else. I guess that is what I liked about the Long Island parochial high school cancelling the 'school sponsored' prom. They are well aware that the parents will field something, but the only thing the school will be henceforth associated with is one that you would be happy to see your son or daughter at

.

I agree but there are those here who would argue that it is none of the schools business making judgement calls like this.

If I take my child/grandchild to the 7-11, I do not expect to see the Hustler centerfold. I don't, it doesn't happen. Britteny's belly? Yeah, but we'll cope.
As I posted before, I tried to provide my kids with a variety of the arts and ways to interact with others. While I could gag at the posters my college sons have hung on their room walls, they didn't do so at home. When I was visiting, they had 'covered them', but I peeked. Their response, "Mom, ya gotta go along, besides, I'm over 18...

Putting porn in a place that is not so conspicuous seems pretty reasonable to me but others would argue that you should just not even GO to the 7-11.

 

[Annie]

There most certainly are claims made here that the parents should be the only ones responsible for a childs' morality. I disagree and our society already has enacted measures to help. What do mean "none should exist" ? Someone felt strongly enough to post it.

I was speaking to your claim that either Insein or I were arguing against any rules. I was speaking towards 'laws' to curtail the first amendment, which is what I thought you were arguing for.

I agree but there are those here who would argue that it is none of the schools business making judgement calls like this.

I've seen dissension about calling it sexual harrassment and the suspension, since it wasn't the kid's school, but not about schools making the call. What else are you referring to?



Putting porn in a place that is not so conspicuous seems pretty reasonable to me but others would argue that you should just not even GO to the 7-11.What?

 

[MissileMan]

If you feel as if society should have no role in shaping the morality of Americas' youth then you have a hell of a lot of laws to repeal. Why do I get the feeling EVEN YOU would have to admit that some of those laws need to be there?

I firmly believe that it's the parents job to instill morals in their children. There are numerous resources available to assist parents in this endeavor. These include their extended family, their church (if they are religious), and youth programs like the scouts or youth sports leagues. The V-chip and PC filters are there to help because it's impossible for parents to be with their kids 24/7.

Outside of defining what is and isn't legal, I don't believe it's the government's job, nor should it be, to instill morals in anyone's children. This includes public schools. Taking away my or anyone else's access to adult-oriented entertainment is not a suitable substitute for parents doing their job.

You keep alleging that kids are being bombarded with porn and smut everywhere. You use a non-existent billboard and (I assume) non-existent sex romp on your neighbor's lawn as proof of this bombardment. You've offered no evidence to support your contention that we're being overrun by porn.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread advocate children having wholesale access to pornography. There are quite specific laws making it illegal, as it should be.

 

[Annie]

I firmly believe that it's the parents job to instill morals in their children. There are numerous resources available to assist parents in this endeavor. These include their extended family, their church (if they are religious), and youth programs like the scouts or youth sports leagues. The V-chip and PC filters are there to help because it's impossible for parents to be with their kids 24/7.

Outside of defining what is and isn't legal, I don't believe it's the government's job, nor should it be, to instill morals in anyone's children. This includes public schools. Taking away my or anyone else's access to adult-oriented entertainment is not a suitable substitute for parents doing their job.

You keep alleging that kids are being bombarded with porn and smut everywhere. You use a non-existent billboard and (I assume) non-existent sex romp on your neighbor's lawn as proof of this bombardment. You've offered no evidence to support your contention that we're being overrun by porn.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread advocate children having wholesale access to pornography. There are quite specific laws making it illegal, as it should be.

I nearly agree with what you say. I do think the schools, as a last resort, should instill in kids that there are 'laws' that must be obeyed. Call that 'morals' or what have you.

It's NOT ok to steal, um cheating and plagarism are both stealing.

Lie to teachers/parents about what is going on at your own peril, there cannot be good cooperation between home and school, if honesty is not present. Kids often exaggerate what either teachers or parents say or do. Both parents and teachers need to be aware of that.

Swearing at school is unacceptable, there are consequences. There must be a level or respect, for peers, staff, and faculty. It works both ways.

Respect for differences is essential. Sexual harrassment, different ability levels, handicaps, racial differences, the list goes on...

 

[dilloduck]

I firmly believe that it's the parents job to instill morals in their children. There are numerous resources available to assist parents in this endeavor. These include their extended family, their church (if they are religious), and youth programs like the scouts or youth sports leagues. The V-chip and PC filters are there to help because it's impossible for parents to be with their kids 24/7.

Outside of defining what is and isn't legal, I don't believe it's the government's job, nor should it be, to instill morals in anyone's children. This includes public schools. Taking away my or anyone else's access to adult-oriented entertainment is not a suitable substitute for parents doing their job.

You keep alleging that kids are being bombarded with porn and smut everywhere. You use a non-existent billboard and (I assume) non-existent sex romp on your neighbor's lawn as proof of this bombardment. You've offered no evidence to support your contention that we're being overrun by porn.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread advocate children having wholesale access to pornography. There are quite specific laws making it illegal, as it should be.

Right--the government is ALREADY involved as it SHOULD be and I will continue to support that form of intervention. When the ACLU stops attacking the rights of Christians, I will stop attacking peoples' "rights" to be as sexually explicit where ever and whenever they feel like it.

 

[MissileMan]

I nearly agree with what you say. I do think the schools, as a last resort, should instill in kids that there are 'laws' that must be obeyed. Call that 'morals' or what have you.

It's NOT ok to steal, um cheating and plagarism are both stealing.

Lie to teachers/parents about what is going on at your own peril, there cannot be good cooperation between home and school, if honesty is not present. Kids often exaggerate what either teachers or parents say or do. Both parents and teachers need to be aware of that.

Swearing at school is unacceptable, there are consequences. There must be a level or respect, for peers, staff, and faculty. It works both ways.

Respect for differences is essential. Sexual harrassment, different ability levels, handicaps, racial differences, the list goes on...

I agree, but I'm saying that those are all values that a well-raised child will have before their first day of school.

 

[Hobbit]

Not overrun with porn? Cable TV is full of softcore porn, and they're giving it lower and lower ratings all the time. You can't go anywhere on the internet without running across porn, and the filters don't work very well, since they either block a buttload of stuff that isn't offensive but is very useful and since the porn companies are CONSTANTLY trying to find ways around porn blockers, such as making their sites image only (which foils word search programs), or sending spam with harmless subject lines that get around spam and porn filters with things like "Re: Party Pictures" or "Here are the pictures you wanted." There are even billboards, which I have seen, that depict scantily clad or topless (either facing away or with a sign covering the naughty bits) women advertising everything from bars, to restaraunts, to beer, to radio stations.

 

[Annie]

Not overrun with porn? Cable TV is full of softcore porn, and they're giving it lower and lower ratings all the time. You can't go anywhere on the internet without running across porn, and the filters don't work very well, since they either block a buttload of stuff that isn't offensive but is very useful and since the porn companies are CONSTANTLY trying to find ways around porn blockers, such as making their sites image only (which foils word search programs), or sending spam with harmless subject lines that get around spam and porn filters with things like "Re: Party Pictures" or "Here are the pictures you wanted." There are even billboards, which I have seen, that depict scantily clad or topless (either facing away or with a sign covering the naughty bits) women advertising everything from bars, to restaraunts, to beer, to radio stations.

Hobbit, in a way you are making my points for me. We as a society have choices to make. We can turn it 'all over to the government', which I would not be willing to do or we can educate our children to defend themselves and reach for the higher goods. My oldest was born in 1981, youngest 1985. They all listen to music and watch videos that I wouldn't, but they didn't as early teens. They all are successful young adults, they dress appropriately, are kind to others, are active in their communities.

Most of my students don't join in to the 'current annihlism culture' either-as they are early teens. They choose to be 'cutting edge' by the parameters that are set by their parents, including the parochial school they are attending. However, even in our school, we have parents that fully knowing that cleavage, tight pants, R lyrics are not allowed at a 'casual dress event' they will allow their kid to dress like that. Then they are outraged when said student must call them to bring a change of outfit. Weird thing, they never pull the kid from the school. We think that would be a clearer message.

There are problems in parenting across the board. Some is neglect, some is parents that want to be 'hip.'

The current culture is way too sexual and decadent, but so it was in the 20's and 60's. I don't think that is the decisive factor, rather giving kids a grounding and alternatives. You are proof positive of that.

 

[Annie]

I agree, but I'm saying that those are all values that a well-raised child will have before their first day of school.

Right, but not all or even a majority are 'well-raised' in many areas.

 

[dilloduck]

Not overrun with porn? Cable TV is full of softcore porn, and they're giving it lower and lower ratings all the time. You can't go anywhere on the internet without running across porn, and the filters don't work very well, since they either block a buttload of stuff that isn't offensive but is very useful and since the porn companies are CONSTANTLY trying to find ways around porn blockers, such as making their sites image only (which foils word search programs), or sending spam with harmless subject lines that get around spam and porn filters with things like "Re: Party Pictures" or "Here are the pictures you wanted." There are even billboards, which I have seen, that depict scantily clad or topless (either facing away or with a sign covering the naughty bits) women advertising everything from bars, to restaraunts, to beer, to radio stations.

Agreed but porn is subjective so there always is an argument. I am always intersted in these types of personal rights clashes. The "if you don't like something, move" argument resolves nothing and assumes that there is always going to be someplace where you are not offended. We ALL are going to have to put up with someones elses' bullshit to a certain extent. (I know--"bullshit" is subjective too.) YOU CAN'T HAVE IT YOUR WAY ALL THE TIME.

 

[MissileMan]

Not overrun with porn? Cable TV is full of softcore porn, and they're giving it lower and lower ratings all the time. You can't go anywhere on the internet without running across porn, and the filters don't work very well, since they either block a buttload of stuff that isn't offensive but is very useful and since the porn companies are CONSTANTLY trying to find ways around porn blockers, such as making their sites image only (which foils word search programs), or sending spam with harmless subject lines that get around spam and porn filters with things like "Re: Party Pictures" or "Here are the pictures you wanted." There are even billboards, which I have seen, that depict scantily clad or topless (either facing away or with a sign covering the naughty bits) women advertising everything from bars, to restaraunts, to beer, to radio stations.

I'll concede that the definition of what is acceptable has expanded. Times change. The fact remains, that it is very easy for a parent to filter what their kids watch. If it's too much of a hassle for them, then they can elect to not have cable TV in their house. The internet, while more difficult, can be filtered and monitored. As a no-fail option, you can make a rule in your house that internet browsing must be done under adult supervision.

As for the billboards...scantily clad does not equal nudity and does not equal the performance of a sex act, you can't call that porn.

 

[Hobbit]

Hobbit, in a way you are making my points for me. We as a society have choices to make. We can turn it 'all over to the government', which I would not be willing to do or we can educate our children to defend themselves and reach for the higher goods. My oldest was born in 1981, youngest 1985. They all listen to music and watch videos that I wouldn't, but they didn't as early teens. They all are successful young adults, they dress appropriately, are kind to others, are active in their communities.

Most of my students don't join in to the 'current annihlism culture' either-as they are early teens. They choose to be 'cutting edge' by the parameters that are set by their parents, including the parochial school they are attending. However, even in our school, we have parents that fully knowing that cleavage, tight pants, R lyrics are not allowed at a 'casual dress event' they will allow their kid to dress like that. Then they are outraged when said student must call them to bring a change of outfit. Weird thing, they never pull the kid from the school. We think that would be a clearer message.

There are problems in parenting across the board. Some is neglect, some is parents that want to be 'hip.'

The current culture is way too sexual and decadent, but so it was in the 20's and 60's. I don't think that is the decisive factor, rather giving kids a grounding and alternatives. You are proof positive of that.

Of course, it's all up to the parents. However, I was simply refuting the claim that kids weren't bombarded by porn. My parents basically informed me of its exaistence and that it was unacceptable, so I simply dodged it as best as I could. However, back when my parents were kids, it was a hell of a lot harder to look at porn accidentally than it is today.

And while scantily clad isn't technically porn, it's still designed to provoke a sexual reaction. When you're a guy, it's hard enough to not think about sex without having sex objects thrust in your face every 5 seconds.

 

[Annie]

Of course, it's all up to the parents. However, I was simply refuting the claim that kids weren't bombarded by porn. My parents basically informed me of its exaistence and that it was unacceptable, so I simply dodged it as best as I could. However, back when my parents were kids, it was a hell of a lot harder to look at porn accidentally than it is today.

And while scantily clad isn't technically porn, it's still designed to provoke a sexual reaction. When you're a guy, it's hard enough to not think about sex without having sex objects thrust in your face every 5 seconds.

I agree with you. But I do not think you are so 'exceptional' that other kids cannot benefit the way you did. Forewarned is forearmed. That was my point from the beginning. It's what I tried to give my kids and do as a teacher too.

Some of my kids have homelifes that stink, to put it mildly. If I don't tell them that that does not condemn them and their children to the same, who will? To ignor kids whose mom is a hooker, who's parents are into drugs, sorry, I can't do. I would never tell the kids I KNOW that, just that, "Many of us have homelifes that are not what we would wish. We need to grab ahold of those that will help up get out of this and then deal with other family members." Oftentimes, my students are the oldest of many siblings. Sometimes they are basically trying to 'raise' their siblings. Not possible at 13 years old, without adults helping.

 

[dilloduck]

Of course, it's all up to the parents. However, I was simply refuting the claim that kids weren't bombarded by porn. My parents basically informed me of its exaistence and that it was unacceptable, so I simply dodged it as best as I could. However, back when my parents were kids, it was a hell of a lot harder to look at porn accidentally than it is today.

And while scantily clad isn't technically porn, it's still designed to provoke a sexual reaction. When you're a guy, it's hard enough to not think about sex without having sex objects thrust in your face every 5 seconds.

The sexualization of America is so blatant it's not even worth trying to debate it. The young are exposed to things at age 10 that I couldn't even imagine when I was 18. Blow jobs are now not even considered sex. It is not healthy for our society as a whole and all the data bears it out. Parents are forced to be much more vigilant at a time when they really don't have as much time as they used to. If some parent chooses to not protect his/her child is it really a positive thing to just blame them for the problem instead of assisting them? Moral decay affects everyone--even IF you didn't cause it in the first place and you don't feel as if it is your job to help.