Stimulus Plan Includes Religious Discrimination

[Patriot2009]

"Nestled away in the now $900 billion-plus stimulus is a provision some conservatives believe is a backdoor attempt to stifle religious dialogue in the public square. While the bill provides $20 billion for the modernization of school facilities — with $14 billion going to elementary and secondary schools and $6 billion for higher education — it also expressly prohibits using the funds to modernize buildings where religious activities take place." The Bulletin > Philadelphia's Family Newspaper > Archives > Top Stories > Stimulus Plan Includes Religious Discrimination

Under current law a public school must allow after school use of its facilities for religiouos activities such as Bible study and religious services. What this bill will do is make it illegal for any school that accepts these funds for improvements, repairs or new construction to do so.

 

[dilloduck]

"Nestled away in the now $900 billion-plus stimulus is a provision some conservatives believe is a backdoor attempt to stifle religious dialogue in the public square. While the bill provides $20 billion for the modernization of school facilities — with $14 billion going to elementary and secondary schools and $6 billion for higher education — it also expressly prohibits using the funds to modernize buildings where religious activities take place." The Bulletin > Philadelphia's Family Newspaper > Archives > Top Stories > Stimulus Plan Includes Religious Discrimination

Under current law a public school must allow after school use of its facilities for religiouos activities such as Bible study and religious services. What this bill will do is make it illegal for any school that accepts these funds for improvements, repairs or new construction to do so.

nice---conditions on the stimulus package that have nothing to do with the economy.

 

[007]

"Nestled away in the now $900 billion-plus stimulus is a provision some conservatives believe is a backdoor attempt to stifle religious dialogue in the public square. While the bill provides $20 billion for the modernization of school facilities — with $14 billion going to elementary and secondary schools and $6 billion for higher education — it also expressly prohibits using the funds to modernize buildings where religious activities take place." The Bulletin > Philadelphia's Family Newspaper > Archives > Top Stories > Stimulus Plan Includes Religious Discrimination

Under current law a public school must allow after school use of its facilities for religiouos activities such as Bible study and religious services. What this bill will do is make it illegal for any school that accepts these funds for improvements, repairs or new construction to do so.

nice---conditions on the stimulus package that have nothing to do with the economy.

And no one knows really how much of that kind of stuff is IN the bill... well, maybe pelosi does.

We're getting a royal fucking with this bill, compliments of the new far left power in Washington.

People should be scared... REAL scared.

 

[Arthur]

"Nestled away in the now $900 billion-plus stimulus is a provision some conservatives believe is a backdoor attempt to stifle religious dialogue in the public square. While the bill provides $20 billion for the modernization of school facilities — with $14 billion going to elementary and secondary schools and $6 billion for higher education — it also expressly prohibits using the funds to modernize buildings where religious activities take place." The Bulletin > Philadelphia's Family Newspaper > Archives > Top Stories > Stimulus Plan Includes Religious Discrimination

Under current law a public school must allow after school use of its facilities for religiouos activities such as Bible study and religious services. What this bill will do is make it illegal for any school that accepts these funds for improvements, repairs or new construction to do so.

Excellent. We should not be having prayer and religious activities in public schools. The law reverses the previous one.

 

[jillian]

"Nestled away in the now $900 billion-plus stimulus is a provision some conservatives believe is a backdoor attempt to stifle religious dialogue in the public square. While the bill provides $20 billion for the modernization of school facilities — with $14 billion going to elementary and secondary schools and $6 billion for higher education — it also expressly prohibits using the funds to modernize buildings where religious activities take place." The Bulletin > Philadelphia's Family Newspaper > Archives > Top Stories > Stimulus Plan Includes Religious Discrimination

Under current law a public school must allow after school use of its facilities for religiouos activities such as Bible study and religious services. What this bill will do is make it illegal for any school that accepts these funds for improvements, repairs or new construction to do so.

I don't believe that's true. In fact, I don't believe kids ar allowed to have bible study in school at all. I could be wrong about that, though.

To me, it's applying the same standard as the constitution. At least til the right wingers on the court get hold of it.... which could be the reason for the provision.

I don't see anything wrong with it.Government is already prohibited from funding religious pursuits. I can see where the Christian right would be offended by that, having worked so hard to elect presidents and governors to put people on the court who stand constitutional construction on its head.

 

[dilloduck]

"Nestled away in the now $900 billion-plus stimulus is a provision some conservatives believe is a backdoor attempt to stifle religious dialogue in the public square. While the bill provides $20 billion for the modernization of school facilities — with $14 billion going to elementary and secondary schools and $6 billion for higher education — it also expressly prohibits using the funds to modernize buildings where religious activities take place." The Bulletin > Philadelphia's Family Newspaper > Archives > Top Stories > Stimulus Plan Includes Religious Discrimination

Under current law a public school must allow after school use of its facilities for religiouos activities such as Bible study and religious services. What this bill will do is make it illegal for any school that accepts these funds for improvements, repairs or new construction to do so.

I don't believe that's true. In fact, I don't believe kids ar allowed to have bible study in school at all. I could be wrong about that, though.

To me, it's applying the same standard as the constitution. At least til the right wingers on the court get hold of it.... which could be the reason for the provision.

I don't see anything wrong with it.Government is already prohibited from funding religious pursuits. I can see where the Christian right would be offended by that, having worked so hard to elect presidents and governors to put people on the court who stand constitutional construction on its head.

great--no yarmulkes or headscraves in public schools

 

[RetiredGySgt]

"Nestled away in the now $900 billion-plus stimulus is a provision some conservatives believe is a backdoor attempt to stifle religious dialogue in the public square. While the bill provides $20 billion for the modernization of school facilities — with $14 billion going to elementary and secondary schools and $6 billion for higher education — it also expressly prohibits using the funds to modernize buildings where religious activities take place." The Bulletin > Philadelphia's Family Newspaper > Archives > Top Stories > Stimulus Plan Includes Religious Discrimination

Under current law a public school must allow after school use of its facilities for religiouos activities such as Bible study and religious services. What this bill will do is make it illegal for any school that accepts these funds for improvements, repairs or new construction to do so.

I don't believe that's true. In fact, I don't believe kids ar allowed to have bible study in school at all. I could be wrong about that, though.

To me, it's applying the same standard as the constitution. At least til the right wingers on the court get hold of it.... which could be the reason for the provision.

I don't see anything wrong with it.Government is already prohibited from funding religious pursuits. I can see where the Christian right would be offended by that, having worked so hard to elect presidents and governors to put people on the court who stand constitutional construction on its head.

Simply not true. In FACT your State of New York is the REASON religious groups can use school buildings AFTER school hours. Notice the AFTER SCHOOL HOURS part? And explain again why it was perfectly ok for New York to create special rooms DURING school hours for Muslim children in PUBLIC Schools?

 

[RodISHI]

Schools are allowed to rent there gyms here to business meetings and other social get togethers. So basically any events sponsered by any of the churches could be mistrued as religious events.

There are many small communities throughout the US that have one multiple purpose building that serves the community for all community events including Bible school. we had one where I grew up in the California mountains. It is still there today and it is still used for all community events and Sunday school.

So this is basically yet another way to screw small communities that have very limited resources to begin with.

 

[Patriot2009]

"Nestled away in the now $900 billion-plus stimulus is a provision some conservatives believe is a backdoor attempt to stifle religious dialogue in the public square. While the bill provides $20 billion for the modernization of school facilities — with $14 billion going to elementary and secondary schools and $6 billion for higher education — it also expressly prohibits using the funds to modernize buildings where religious activities take place." The Bulletin > Philadelphia's Family Newspaper > Archives > Top Stories > Stimulus Plan Includes Religious Discrimination

Under current law a public school must allow after school use of its facilities for religiouos activities such as Bible study and religious services. What this bill will do is make it illegal for any school that accepts these funds for improvements, repairs or new construction to do so.

Excellent. We should not be having prayer and religious activities in public schools. The law reverses the previous one.

What the Supreme Court has held is that if a school, or, I believe, other publicly owned buildings such as community centers and so on, make the facilities available to the public for non-government uses, i.e., student extra-curricular activities, club meetings, and other such uses, it must make the same facilities available to groups intent on using the facilities for religious activities as well [See GOOD NEWS CLUB V. MILFORD CENTRAL SCHOOL (99-2036) http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-2036.ZS.html].

It is common for church clubs, small congregations that can’t afford to build a church, Bible study groups and other religious groups to use public buildings in this manner. Our church held an outreach dinner in a neighboring community elementary school recently.

Under this provision, if that school accepts funding for a repair to the school roof, the use of the building for a Bible study group or another outreach dinner would then be forever prohibited!

 

[Shogun]

GOOD.


common tax money should not be thrown at religious organizations. period. why should non-believers pay into a kitty that relieves YOUR personal burden of faith? Screw you people. Go pray for fucking rain and cash if you want another megachurch or 40k car for your pastor OR FAILED FAITH BASED PROGRAMS. Some of us would rather not pair social safety nets with your goddamn dangled heaven carrot.

Good grief. This is as much of a no-brainer, AND travesty of crybaby martyrs, as an American President promoting a Buy American campaign.

 

[jillian]

"Nestled away in the now $900 billion-plus stimulus is a provision some conservatives believe is a backdoor attempt to stifle religious dialogue in the public square. While the bill provides $20 billion for the modernization of school facilities — with $14 billion going to elementary and secondary schools and $6 billion for higher education — it also expressly prohibits using the funds to modernize buildings where religious activities take place." The Bulletin > Philadelphia's Family Newspaper > Archives > Top Stories > Stimulus Plan Includes Religious Discrimination

Under current law a public school must allow after school use of its facilities for religiouos activities such as Bible study and religious services. What this bill will do is make it illegal for any school that accepts these funds for improvements, repairs or new construction to do so.

Excellent. We should not be having prayer and religious activities in public schools. The law reverses the previous one.

What the Supreme Court has held is that if a school, or, I believe, other publicly owned buildings such as community centers and so on, make the facilities available to the public for non-government uses, i.e., student extra-curricular activities, club meetings, and other such uses, it must make the same facilities available to groups intent on using the facilities for religious activities as well [See GOOD NEWS CLUB V. MILFORD CENTRAL SCHOOL (99-2036) http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-2036.ZS.html].

It is common for church clubs, small congregations that can’t afford to build a church, Bible study groups and other religious groups to use public buildings in this manner. Our church held an outreach dinner in a neighboring community elementary school recently.

That's not different from this, actually... and it comports with my understanding. this is from the bill...

"used for sectarian instruction, religious worship, or a school or department of divinity; or (ii) in which a substantial portion of the functions of the facilities are subsumed in a religious mission.”

I think it might just be a way to head off scalia and roberts from changing those limits. And I am very much ok with that.

 

[Red Dawn]

the bill provides $20 billion for the modernization of school facilities — with $14 billion going to elementary and secondary schools and $6 billion for higher education — it also expressly prohibits using the funds to modernize buildings where religious activities take place."

Oh, the horror!

Yo, that's how the constitution is supposed to work dude.

If you wingnuts want to keep fighting the culture wars, fighting evolution and stem cell research, I'm down with that.

 

[Againsheila]

"Nestled away in the now $900 billion-plus stimulus is a provision some conservatives believe is a backdoor attempt to stifle religious dialogue in the public square. While the bill provides $20 billion for the modernization of school facilities — with $14 billion going to elementary and secondary schools and $6 billion for higher education — it also expressly prohibits using the funds to modernize buildings where religious activities take place." The Bulletin > Philadelphia's Family Newspaper > Archives > Top Stories > Stimulus Plan Includes Religious Discrimination

Under current law a public school must allow after school use of its facilities for religiouos activities such as Bible study and religious services. What this bill will do is make it illegal for any school that accepts these funds for improvements, repairs or new construction to do so.

Excellent. We should not be having prayer and religious activities in public schools. The law reverses the previous one.

For a long time, an old school was church for a friend of mine. It was a small school, unused for many years, they rented it from the school district. This will make things such as that impossible. Another church rents out an area of our high school every Sunday, this will make that impossible. Why should our PUBLIC buildings not be allowed for the PUBLIC to use. Heck, they won't even let the Boyscouts use them anymore without paying, now they won't be able to use them at all.

Years ago, I remember they arrested a bunch of students holding a Bible study in their dorm at the University of Washington. There was a big fuss made and the students were released and the University was forced to clarify their position and allow Bible study and other such things to take place voluntarily in their dorms. This will once again, lead to arrests of students for simply studying the Bible voluntarily in a group.

Our forefather's wanted us to have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

 

[dilloduck]

"Nestled away in the now $900 billion-plus stimulus is a provision some conservatives believe is a backdoor attempt to stifle religious dialogue in the public square. While the bill provides $20 billion for the modernization of school facilities — with $14 billion going to elementary and secondary schools and $6 billion for higher education — it also expressly prohibits using the funds to modernize buildings where religious activities take place." The Bulletin > Philadelphia's Family Newspaper > Archives > Top Stories > Stimulus Plan Includes Religious Discrimination

Under current law a public school must allow after school use of its facilities for religiouos activities such as Bible study and religious services. What this bill will do is make it illegal for any school that accepts these funds for improvements, repairs or new construction to do so.

Excellent. We should not be having prayer and religious activities in public schools. The law reverses the previous one.

For a long time, an old school was church for a friend of mine. It was a small school, unused for many years, they rented it from the school district. This will make things such as that impossible. Another church rents out an area of our high school every Sunday, this will make that impossible. Why should our PUBLIC buildings not be allowed for the PUBLIC to use. Heck, they won't even let the Boyscouts use them anymore without paying, now they won't be able to use them at all.

Years ago, I remember they arrested a bunch of students holding a Bible study in their dorm at the University of Washington. There was a big fuss made and the students were released and the University was forced to clarify their position and allow Bible study and other such things to take place voluntarily in their dorms. This will once again, lead to arrests of students for simply studying the Bible voluntarily in a group.

Our forefather's wanted us to have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

You can't reason with Christophobes. They are conviced that Christians are ruining their lives.

 

[Munin]

I don't think that any right winger would want any part of the stimulus package to be used for repairing/building a mosque or a part of a school that would be used for Islamic religious purposes either.

It is simple: government funding from a secular state like the US should not go to religious causes.

 

[Patriot2009]

Excellent. We should not be having prayer and religious activities in public schools. The law reverses the previous one.

What the Supreme Court has held is that if a school, or, I believe, other publicly owned buildings such as community centers and so on, make the facilities available to the public for non-government uses, i.e., student extra-curricular activities, club meetings, and other such uses, it must make the same facilities available to groups intent on using the facilities for religious activities as well [See GOOD NEWS CLUB V. MILFORD CENTRAL SCHOOL (99-2036) http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-2036.ZS.html].

It is common for church clubs, small congregations that can’t afford to build a church, Bible study groups and other religious groups to use public buildings in this manner. Our church held an outreach dinner in a neighboring community elementary school recently.

That's not different from this, actually... and it comports with my understanding. this is from the bill...

"used for sectarian instruction, religious worship, or a school or department of divinity; or (ii) in which a substantial portion of the functions of the facilities are subsumed in a religious mission.”

I think it might just be a way to head off scalia and roberts from changing those limits. And I am very much ok with that.

Pages 164-165 of the stimulus contain the following prohibitions on the use of $3.5 billion available for renovation of public or private college and university facilities:

“(2) PROHIBITED USES OF FUNDS.—No funds awarded under this section may be used for—

(C) modernization, renovation, or repair of facilities—

(i) used for sectarian instruction, religious worship, or a school or department of divinity; or

(ii) in which a substantial portion of the functions of the facilities are subsumed in a religious mission; or construction of new facilities.”

OK, Part (2)(C)(i) is the offending provision. Part (2)(C)(ii) isn’t a problem because it is already common in federal funding laws. The (ii) paragraph means that the funds can’t be used to build, renovate or repair what would be a church or church instructional building. Some campuses include a school chapel. Any work on such a building couldn’t be performed with these funds. Although I personally wouldn’t have a problem with such a use of the stimulus money some would and I understand such objections.

But, the (i) paragraph is something new and is a departure from already existing federal law. It is far broader and includes all occasional or less than substantial uses for any religious activity. In other words this isn’t a matter of banning the use of the funds for an old on–campus chapel or church. It bans the one-time or two-time outreach dinner such as the one my church hosted at that elementary school one Thursday night. That’s a big difference.

The irony is that it wouldn’t ban a night of gambling on bingo by a local social club in the same building!

 

[dilloduck]

I don't think that any right winger would want any part of the stimulus package to be used for repairing/building a mosque or a part of a school that would be used for Islamic religious purposes either.

It is simple: government funding from a secular state like the US should not go to religious causes.

But there are no problems accpeting taxes from Christians for purely secular activites---some of which attempt to suppress religious ideology ?

 

[jillian]

What the Supreme Court has held is that if a school, or, I believe, other publicly owned buildings such as community centers and so on, make the facilities available to the public for non-government uses, i.e., student extra-curricular activities, club meetings, and other such uses, it must make the same facilities available to groups intent on using the facilities for religious activities as well [See GOOD NEWS CLUB V. MILFORD CENTRAL SCHOOL (99-2036) http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-2036.ZS.html].

It is common for church clubs, small congregations that can’t afford to build a church, Bible study groups and other religious groups to use public buildings in this manner. Our church held an outreach dinner in a neighboring community elementary school recently.

That's not different from this, actually... and it comports with my understanding. this is from the bill...

"used for sectarian instruction, religious worship, or a school or department of divinity; or (ii) in which a substantial portion of the functions of the facilities are subsumed in a religious mission.”

I think it might just be a way to head off scalia and roberts from changing those limits. And I am very much ok with that.

Pages 164-165 of the stimulus contain the following prohibitions on the use of $3.5 billion available for renovation of public or private college and university facilities:

“(2) PROHIBITED USES OF FUNDS.—No funds awarded under this section may be used for—

(C) modernization, renovation, or repair of facilities—

(i) used for sectarian instruction, religious worship, or a school or department of divinity; or

(ii) in which a substantial portion of the functions of the facilities are subsumed in a religious mission; or construction of new facilities.”

OK, Part (2)(C)(i) is the offending provision. Part (2)(C)(ii) isn’t a problem because it is already common in federal funding laws. The (ii) paragraph means that the funds can’t be used to build, renovate or repair what would be a church or church instructional building. Some campuses include a school chapel. Any work on such a building couldn’t be performed with these funds. Although I personally wouldn’t have a problem with such a use of the stimulus money some would and I understand such objections.

But, the (i) paragraph is something new and is a departure from already existing federal law. It is far broader and includes all occasional or less than substantial uses for any religious activity. In other words this isn’t a matter of banning the use of the funds for an old on–campus chapel or church. It bans the one-time or two-time outreach dinner such as the one my church hosted at that elementary school one Thursday night. That’s a big difference.

The irony is that it wouldn’t ban a night of gambling on bingo by a local social club in the same building!

but they are already only allowing sectarian groups to use the property for non-sectarian, non -religious reasons. it changes nothing. still goes to the use of the premises, IMO.

and, no... they probably wouldn't be able to use the school for an "outreach dinner". but they shouldn't be doing that now, under the current laws.

if the school allowed it, they probably shouldn't. and, certainly, there are other places to have such an outreach dinner than at a school.

it's not that it bothers me, per se. but government money shouldn't be used so a church can reach out to new members.

and what if the mosque down the street wanted to use the school for the same purpose. would you feel the same way?

 

[Munin]

I don't think that any right winger would want any part of the stimulus package to be used for repairing/building a mosque or a part of a school that would be used for Islamic religious purposes either.

It is simple: government funding from a secular state like the US should not go to religious causes.

But there are no problems accpeting taxes from Christians for purely secular activites---some of which attempt to suppress religious ideology ?

No, this makes no sense. The US is a state for all religions (freedom of religion), therefor it has no state religion and it does not fund any religious causes.

It does not suppress religious ideology, it still allows them to use private money for their private Causes: religion.

Public money is used for public causes: no religion because each taxpayer has the right to have a different religion, so a christian/Jew/atheist should not see his taxpayermoney go to fund a mosque or and atheist should not see his taxpayermoney go to fund a scientology church.

 

[Red Dawn]

I don't think that any right winger would want any part of the stimulus package to be used for repairing/building a mosque or a part of a school that would be used for Islamic religious purposes either.

It is simple: government funding from a secular state like the US should not go to religious causes.

But there are no problems accpeting taxes from Christians for purely secular activites---some of which attempt to suppress religious ideology ?

why is teaching evolution in science class such a threat to bible thumpers?