Steven Spielberg's movie about Lincoln is pure bullshit !!!!!!!

[Mr. H.]

How many black people have viewed this movie?
Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Really? And yet you love Lincoln who suspended habeas corpus, dismantled freedom of the press, opposed free trade, wanted to deport African Americans, piled on taxes, built up a powerful central government, and waged a bloody war to force a region to stay in the Union. That's just crazy!

Yes Lincoln more than anybody asserted the anti-Constitutional power of the Federal government over the states.

Republicans are stuck loving him because he was the first Republican and because we can't admit that killing 600,000 was a huge huge waste for nothing.

 

[gipper]

How can Americans venerate this man, when he made so many intolerant and ignorant statements?

In his own words...

LINCOLN WAS AN OBSESSIVE WHITE SUPREMACIST

"Free them [blacks] and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this . . . . We can not then make them equals." (CW, Vol. II, p. 256).

"There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people, to the idea of an indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races" (CW, Vol. II, p. 405).

"What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races" (CW, Vol. II, p. 521).

"I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races . . . . I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong, having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary." (CW, Vol. III, p. 16).

"I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races . . . . I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people . . ." (CW, Vol, III, pp. 145-146).

"I will to the very last stand by the law of this state, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes." (CW, Vol. III, p. 146).


"Senator Douglas remarked . . that . . . this government was made for the white people and not for negroes. Why, in point of mere fact, I think so too." (CW, Vol. II, p. 281).

Until His Dying Day, Lincoln Plotted to Deport all the Black People Out of America

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation . . . . Such separation . . . must be effected by colonization" [to Liberia, Central America, anywhere]. (CW, Vol. II, p. 409).

"Let us be brought to believe it is morally right , and . . . favorable to . . . our interest, to transfer the African to his native clime . . ." (CW, Vol. II, p. 409).

"The place I am thinking about having for a colony [for the deportation of all American blacks] is in Central America. It is nearer to us than Liberia." (CW, Vol. V, pp. 373, 374).

LINCOLN ONLY RHETORICALLY OPPOSED SOUTHERN SLAVERY. IN PRACTICE, HE STRENGTHENED IT

" I think no wise man has perceived, how it [slavery] could be at once eradicated, without producing a greater evil, even to the cause of human liberty himself." (CW, Vol. II, p. 130).

"I meant not to ask for the abolition of slavery in the District of Columbia." (CW, Vol., II, p. 260).

"I believe there is no right, and ought to be no inclination I the people of the free states to enter into the slave states and interfere with the question of slavery at all." (CW, Vol. II, p. 492).

"I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists." (CW, Vol. III, p. 16).

"I say that we must not interfere with the institution of slavery . . . because the constitution forbids it, and the general welfare does not require us to do so." (CW, Vol. III, p. 460).


LINCOLN CHAMPIONED THE FUGITIVE SLAVE ACT

"I do not now, nor ever did, stand in favor of the unconditional repeal of the fugitive slave law." (CW, Vol., III., p. 40).

"[T]he people of the Southern states are entitled to a Congressional Fugitive Slave Law." (CW, Vol. III, p. 41).

Lincoln Advocated Secession When it Could Advance His Political Career

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better." (CW, Vol. 1, p. 438).

LINCOLN VIEWED FORT SUMTER AS AN IMPORTANT TAX COLLECTION POINT AND WENT TO WAR OVER IT

"I think we should hold the forts, or retake them, as the case may be, and collect the revenue." (CW, Vol. IV, p. 164).

LINCOLN BELIEVED THE CONSTITUTION WAS WHATEVER HE ALONE SAID IT WAS

"The dogmas of the quite past [referring to the U.S. Constitution], are inadequate to the stormy present . . . so we must think anew and act anew." (CW, Vol. V, p. 537).

"The resolutions quote from the constitution, the definition of treason; and also the . . . safeguards and guarantees therein provided for the citizen . . . against the pretensions of arbitrary power . . . . But these provisions of the constitution have no application to the case we have in hand." (CW, Vol. VI, p. 262.


"[T]he theory of the general government being only an agency, whose principles are the states [i.e. the true history of the American founding] was new to me and, as I think, is one of the best arguments for the national supremacy." (CW, Vol. VII, p. 24.

"I felt that measures, otherwise unconstitutional, might become lawful . . ." (CW, Vol. VII, p. 281).

"You [General John Dix] are therefore hereby commanded forth with to arrest and imprison in any fort or military prison in your command the editors, proprietors and publishers of the aforesaid newspapers [New York World and New York Journal of Commerce]." CW, Vol. VII, p. 348.

"It was decided [by Lincoln alone] that we have a case of rebellion, and that the public safety does require the qualified suspension of the writ [of Habeas Corpus]." CW, Vol. IV, pp. 430-431.

LINCOLN WAS ECONOMICALLY IGNORANT OF THE BIG ECONOMIC ISSUE OF HIS DAY: PROTECTIONIST TARIFFS

"[A] tariff of duties on imported goods . . . is indispensably necessary to the prosperity of the American people." (CW, Vol. I, p. 307.

"y the tariff system . . . the man who contents himself to live upon the products of his own country , pays nothing at all." (CW, Vol. I, p. 311).

"All carrying . . . of articles from the place of their production to a distant place for their consumption . . . is useless labor." (CW, Vol. I, p. 409).

"I was an old Henry Clay tariff whig. In old times I made more speeches on that subject, than on any other. I have not changed my views." (CW, Vol, III, p. 487).


"The tariff is to the government what a meal is to a family . . ." (CW, Vol., IV, p. 211).

"I must confess that I do not understand the subject [the economics of tariffs]." (CW, Vol. IV, p. 211).

"The power confided to me, will be used . . . to collect the duties and imposes; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion . . ." (CW, Vol. IV, p. 266).

"Accumulations of the public revenue, lying within [Fort Sumter] had been seized [and denied to the U.S. government] . . . . [The administration] sought only to hold the public places and property [i.e., the forts] . . . to collect the revenue." (CW, Vol. IV, pp. 422-423).

ALTHOUGH HE NEVER BECAME A CHRISTIAN, LINCOLN CLAIMED TO KNOW WHAT WAS IN THE MIND OF GOD AND BLAMED THE WAR ON HIM, ABSOLVING HIMSELF OF ALL RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT, IN ORDER TO BAMBOOZLE THE RELIGIOUS POPULATION OF THE NORTH

"t is peculiarly fit for us to recognize the hand of God in this terrible visitation [i.e. the war]." CW, Vol. IV, p. 482.

"You all may recollect that in taking up the sword thus forced into my hands this Government . . . placed its whole dependence upon the favor of God." (CW, Vol. V., p. 212).

"God wills this contest [the war]." CW, Vol. V, p. 404.


"If I had my way, this war would never have been commenced . . . but . . . we must believe that He permits it for some wise purpose of his own, mysterious and unknown to us . . ." (CW, Vol. V, p. 478).

"t has not pleased the Almighty to bless us with a return to peace . . ." (CW, Vol. V, p. 518).

"[R]ender the homage due to the Divine Majesty . . . to lead the whole nation, through the paths of repentance and submission to the Divine Will, back to the perfect enjoyment of Union . . ." (CW, Vol. VI, p. 332).

"It has pleased Almighty God . . . to vouchsafe to the army and the navy of the United States victories on land and sea." (CW, Vol. VI, p. 332).

"I claim not to have controlled events, but confess plainly that events have controlled me . . . . God alone can claim it." (CW, Vol. VII, p. 282).

"He intends some great good to follow this mighty convulsion, which no mortal could make . . ." (CW, Vol. VII, p. 535).
The Real Lincoln in His Own Words by Thomas DiLorenzo

 

[oldfart]

How can Americans venerate this man, when he made so many intolerant and ignorant statements?

Lincoln bashing is a cottage industry for historian wannabes. But I have yet to find anyone who can name five public figures of the era which held positions closer to modern than Lincoln. Like to try?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

How can Americans venerate this man, when he made so many intolerant and ignorant statements?

Lincoln bashing is a cottage industry for historian wannabes. But I have yet to find anyone who can name five public figures of the era which held positions closer to modern than Lincoln. Like to try?

Lincoln is modern in the sense that he was liberal or socialist. He had great support from the European socialists and even Karl Marx. The president of Harvard says we must love Lincoln because if we don't the 600,000 dead were in vein. Lincoln was very destructive to states rights and individual liberty. How do you have freedom when you can't leave the union? Isn't that why we have divorce in marriage? If you can't leave you are in effect a slave. Lincoln attacked the very concept of America.

 

[Rogue 9]

How can Americans venerate this man, when he made so many intolerant and ignorant statements?

Lincoln bashing is a cottage industry for historian wannabes. But I have yet to find anyone who can name five public figures of the era which held positions closer to modern than Lincoln. Like to try?

Lincoln is modern in the sense that he was liberal or socialist. He had great support from the European socialists and even Karl Marx. The president of Harvard says we must love Lincoln because if we don't the 600,000 dead were in vein. Lincoln was very destructive to states rights and individual liberty. How do you have freedom when you can't leave the union? Isn't that why we have divorce in marriage? If you can't leave you are in effect a slave. Lincoln attacked the very concept of America.

But the Confederacy was pro-slavery, so supporting it must mean you think slavery is awesome.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Lincoln bashing is a cottage industry for historian wannabes. But I have yet to find anyone who can name five public figures of the era which held positions closer to modern than Lincoln. Like to try?

Lincoln is modern in the sense that he was liberal or socialist. He had great support from the European socialists and even Karl Marx. The president of Harvard says we must love Lincoln because if we don't the 600,000 dead were in vein. Lincoln was very destructive to states rights and individual liberty. How do you have freedom when you can't leave the union? Isn't that why we have divorce in marriage? If you can't leave you are in effect a slave. Lincoln attacked the very concept of America.

But the Confederacy was pro-slavery, so supporting it must mean you think slavery is awesome.

Most imortantly, the Confederacy was pro-freedom. That they made a mistake with their freedom does not mean only central government should have all the freedom because only central government is all knowing and won't make even bigger mistakes with its freedom.

Too complicated for a liberal-right?

 

[Rogue 9]

Most imortantly, the Confederacy was pro-freedom. That they made a mistake with their freedom does not mean only central government should have all the freedom because only central government is all knowing and won't make even bigger mistakes with its freedom.

Too complicated for a liberal-right?

Wouldn't know, since I'm not one. But it's apparently too complicated for you to understand, because the Confederacy was not, in any sense, pro-freedom, at least not in any degree more than the United States. The Confederacy, in addition to starting a massive war in order to maintain and expand slavery, instituted the draft well before the Union and relied on it to a greater degree, jailed or conscripted (or executed if they were too enthusiastic about it) residents who had campaigned against secession, put down the unionists of eastern Tennessee with main military force when they attempted to counter-secede and occupied the region, wrote slavery permanently into their constitution, and overall were in support of an openly aristocratic social order. It's laughable to claim that the Slave Power was in any way pro-freedom.

 

[regent]

How can Americans venerate this man, when he made so many intolerant and ignorant statements?

Lincoln bashing is a cottage industry for historian wannabes. But I have yet to find anyone who can name five public figures of the era which held positions closer to modern than Lincoln. Like to try?

Lincoln is modern in the sense that he was liberal or socialist. He had great support from the European socialists and even Karl Marx. The president of Harvard says we must love Lincoln because if we don't the 600,000 dead were in vein. Lincoln was very destructive to states rights and individual liberty. How do you have freedom when you can't leave the union? Isn't that why we have divorce in marriage? If you can't leave you are in effect a slave. Lincoln attacked the very concept of America.

Bad analogy. If a nation is to survive it cannot allow parts to break off and go into the world alone. Still it would be nice if my state became free, no more lousy state laws. Better than that would be if the county broke off from the state, then no more state income taxes. Come to think of it the county has taxes so maybe my city should break off from the county. On another tack only my neighborhood has no taxes, so stand by, a new nation of just my neighborhood. Imagine a new nation, small but like minded people and with with no taxes? I think the South was on to something.

 

[oldfart]

Lincoln is modern in the sense that he was liberal or socialist. He had great support from the European socialists and even Karl Marx. The president of Harvard says we must love Lincoln because if we don't the 600,000 dead were in vein. Lincoln was very destructive to states rights and individual liberty. How do you have freedom when you can't leave the union? Isn't that why we have divorce in marriage? If you can't leave you are in effect a slave. Lincoln attacked the very concept of America.

First, Ed, let me congratulate you on a cogent post!

Apparently you are one of the few who is aware that Marx wrote for several newspapers on the Civil War. The fact that many Europeans supported Lincoln in his anti-slavery positions is not an indication of Lincoln's broader beliefs. Much of the support for Lincoln came from staunchly conservative quarters in Europe as well. We don't want to imply that conservatives in the 1860's supported slavery now, do we?

I'm not sure what quote about loving Lincoln you are referring to, but a common sentiment has been that America fought a Civil War to determine certain issues, and we ought not re-fight them. In that sense I would agree.

The idea that Lincoln tried to put an end to the idea of state's rights including a right to withdraw from the Union is perfectly correct. I cannot recall a claim that he opposed any other rights of states and would be interested to hear how that argument would be advanced.

Regarding individual liberties, I have also not heard much of an argument outside of the habeus corpus issue, and would like to hear if there is more to that.

Finally, Lincoln's record as an old Whig on promoting business was exemplary he clearly supported Clay's "American system". This should surely put him in the camp of the founders of American capitalism.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Lincoln is modern in the sense that he was liberal or socialist. He had great support from the European socialists and even Karl Marx. The president of Harvard says we must love Lincoln because if we don't the 600,000 dead were in vein. Lincoln was very destructive to states rights and individual liberty. How do you have freedom when you can't leave the union? Isn't that why we have divorce in marriage? If you can't leave you are in effect a slave. Lincoln attacked the very concept of America.

First, Ed, let me congratulate you on a cogent post!

thanks,.... but then again that's undoubtedly a devilish way to make doubt my own post!!

Apparently you are one of the few who is aware that Marx wrote for several newspapers on the Civil War.

yes he wrote for several in the USA and was friendly with Horace Greely( an open socialist) who was one of the founders of the Lincoln's Republican Party, not to be confused with Jefferson's Republican Party which was all about individual liberty and very very limited government as is today's Republican Party.

The fact that many Europeans supported Lincoln in his anti-slavery positions is not an indication of Lincoln's broader beliefs.

what beliefs??? he was a double talking two faced lawyer, oportunistic politician, and racist who stood for nothing. We made him into a hero rather than face the 600,000 dead human beings - 10 times more than Vietnam when the population was 10 times less.

Much of the support for Lincoln came from staunchly conservative quarters in Europe as well.

what European support?? What conservatives??????

We don't want to imply that conservatives in the 1860's supported slavery now, do we?

Dear, lincoln's ideas where a jumbled mess as were European ideas at the time as were definitions of conservative and liberals so you are talking pure jibberish by using the terms as if anyone could know what you think they mean.

I'm not sure what quote about loving Lincoln you are referring to, but a common sentiment has been that America fought a Civil War to determine certain issues, and we ought not re-fight them. In that sense I would agree.

no idea, whatsoever, what on earth you are talking about. Why not think before you post, read what you write after you post, and then make corrections.

The idea that Lincoln tried to put an end to the idea of state's rights including a right to withdraw from the Union is perfectly correct.

yes he was simple minded and probably crazy but he could keep the idea of preserving the union in his mind. Lincoln freed the slaves and imprisoned the south. See why I say, crazy?

I cannot recall a claim that he opposed any other rights of states and would be interested to hear how that argument would be advanced.

imagine if the south had won and some fool said, "I cant see how that would limit Federal power versus the states." Lincoln wanted a national government, not a federal government or at least that is what happened from his intervention.

Regarding individual liberties, I have also not heard much of an argument outside of the habeus corpus issue, and would like to hear if there is more to that.

Lincoln may have arrested around 13,000 northerners without trial and shut down hundreds of newspapers as well as killed 600,000. This was the beginning of the end in some senses. From then forward forever we had a national government, not a federal government, and the process continues today!

Finally, Lincoln's record as an old Whig on promoting business was exemplary he clearly supported Clay's "American system". This should surely put him in the camp of the founders of American capitalism.

don't know how you can be confused about so much. The American System was little more than a socialist tariff. Today we support free trade among states and among nations. Our Founders supported it among states, but not among nations. This is because Milton did not appear for 200 years.