State's case against FLDS weakening

[AllieBaba]

And guess what, just as I said, the mainstream media is absolutely silent.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9330822
Only 17 women, out of original 26, are left in the state's disputed-age group

By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 05/21/2008 07:56:04 AM MDT
SAN ANGELO, Texas - An underpinning of the state's case for taking hundreds of FLDS children into custody continued to weaken Tuesday as officials acknowledged four more women whose ages were disputed are adults - including one who is 27.
Still to come: The state was prepared to admit one additional mother was an adult, but her hearing was postponed. Four women had been deemed adults before Tuesday; other women's hearings have yet to come up in court.
The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services has maintained a "pervasive pattern" of underage marriages justified removing all children from the YFZ Ranch and their parents, members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
It specifically claimed that 31 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were pregnant, mothers or both - a tally that originally included 26 women whose ages were in dispute.
One case that supports the state's claim was postponed Tuesday: that of 17-year-old Suzanne Johnson, who is eight months pregnant and has a 16-month-old child.
But now, 17 women are left in the disputed-age group, and one attorney expressed outrage Tuesday about the state's tactics in dealing with the mothers.
Andrea Sloan, who represents Leona Allred, said the state was given official documents showing the woman to be 27 the day it raided the YFZ Ranch. On Tuesday, more than six weeks later, Allred's case was dismissed without the state receiving any additional information, Sloan told a Texas judge.
Sloan was informed of the impending decision Monday evening - but the state continued to tell Allred she could not participate in hearings on Tuesday for her two children because she was a minor. Allred turns 28 on June 2.
Allred had been warned, Sloan said, that as an adult she would not be allowed to remain at the Fort Worth shelter with her two children, including a 15-month-old - which a state attorney confirmed during the hearing.
But that apparently did not sit well with the judge hearing her case.
"For a month, six weeks, this mother has been with these children in this facility," he said, resetting the hearing for May 27 to give CPS time to work out an alternative.
Other judges also pressed CPS to accommodate the young mothers who have been in state custody for more than a month - something that one FLDS spokesman said was encouraging.
"Inch by inch and day by day, the truth is starting to come out about what is really happening here," said Rod Parker. "We find that parents haven't done anything wrong and the state can't articulate to any parent what the parents did."
Examples of the accommodations being made: Judge Jay Weatherby told CPS to allow Rebecca Allred, 20, and husband Wendell Jeffs, 23, to have a four-hour, unsupervised visit once a week. The couple have a 9-month-old son.
Judge Tom Gossett told CPS to find a way to reunite Louisa Barlow Jessop with two children who were with her until she gave birth on May 12. A day later, the state acknowledged she was 22; it left the newborn in her care but moved the younger children, ages 2 and 3.
A guardian ad litem "implored" Gossett to return the children, saying they have done poorly since being separated from their mother.
"The 3-year-old has become very withdrawn," Marie Clark said, while the couple's son "is not eating well or sleeping well."
The judge said it was "not acceptable" when told by a CPS worker there was no place that could take the mother and her children and gave the agency a week to resolve the issue. It may not take that long. Louisa Jessop, who participated in the hearing by telephone, said the shelter she is in will let them join her.
Asked by her husband, Dan, why the state had taken his children, Gossett said a "wide loop" had been thrown around the FLDS community that might not fit all parents. The state, he said, had concerns about the FLDS' beliefs, plural and underage marriages and "communal attitude."
If those allegations prove unfounded, "I'll be the first to apologize to you if it turns out you're not a person who has abused your child," the judge told Dan Jessop, who was in the courtroom. "There is no proof of abuse in your case. That gives you a leg up."
[email protected]

Gosh, where's CNN?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Allie none of the people that were so supportive of the State of Texas CARE that the rights of these people were and continue to be violated. They were clear when this first started, any means are acceptable when they do not like someone or something.

Here is another link to an attempt by the State to continue to illegally hold onto children they had no right to seize to begin with.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

The excuse now being they will flee. Hell I would leave Texas in a heart beat after the State made it plain I had no rights under the law as well. More importantly the State is refusing to allow the parents in the cases that go to court to return to the compound. They are requiring them to somehow get jobs and move hundreds of miles away to even have a chance to get their children ( illegally seized) back.

The State is NOT operating in good faith nor in the best interest of its citizens. As I predicted the women they kept that were NOT minors, that gave birth while illegally held can not get their new borns back, it was a ploy by the State to try and gain custody of those new born children.

 

[William Joyce]

Gosh, where's CNN?

Pissed off that the great story about crazy religious fundamentalists has been complicated by facts.

 

[Ninja]

Not a surprise. You can't just throw out the law and constitution whenever it looks like children are in danger. Uncorroborated anonymous telephone tips do not constitute probable cause. Guilt by religious association is an anathema to the constitution.

I hope they sue the living fuck out of Texas.

 

[Shogun]

yea.. maybe they can all get off of welfare then.

 

[Ninja]

Well Shogun, bleeding the beast is a pretty unmanly way to make a living, but even welfare queens have Constitutional rights.

 

[Shogun]

and breeding sexual fodder for dirty old men in the name of religion is not one of em.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

and breeding sexual fodder for dirty old men in the name of religion is not one of em.

Facts not in evidence, that would be exactly why the State lost. You nor anyone else gets to dictate the Religion of anyone else in the US. The State of Texas CPS and the first Judge tried and continue to try and do JUST that.

When they purposefully held women with VALID birth Certificates and claimed they were minor for the sole purpose of seizing their unborn children once they were born they lost what ever supposed credibility they might have had at the start. A 22 year old an a 27 year old woman do not look like they are 16 or 17.

Whether you like it or not 16 and up CAN get married in Texas. And if they were married in another State with less restrictive laws it is also LEGAL. The State has at most only 5 girls that MAY be under age. They had no right and no authority to seize over 400 children. ANd then they had no right and NO authority to put them in Foster Care. Two superior Courts AGREED thay over reached any semblence of Authority.

 

[Anguille]

And guess what, just as I said, the mainstream media is absolutely silent.

FLDS hearings: Texas' case weakens as moms turn out adults - Salt Lake Tribune
Only 17 women, out of original 26, are left in the state's disputed-age group

By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 05/21/2008 07:56:04 AM MDT
SAN ANGELO, Texas - An underpinning of the state's case for taking hundreds of FLDS children into custody continued to weaken Tuesday as officials acknowledged four more women whose ages were disputed are adults - including one who is 27.
Still to come: The state was prepared to admit one additional mother was an adult, but her hearing was postponed. Four women had been deemed adults before Tuesday; other women's hearings have yet to come up in court.
The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services has maintained a "pervasive pattern" of underage marriages justified removing all children from the YFZ Ranch and their parents, members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
It specifically claimed that 31 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were pregnant, mothers or both - a tally that originally included 26 women whose ages were in dispute.
One case that supports the state's claim was postponed Tuesday: that of 17-year-old Suzanne Johnson, who is eight months pregnant and has a 16-month-old child.
But now, 17 women are left in the disputed-age group, and one attorney expressed outrage Tuesday about the state's tactics in dealing with the mothers.
Andrea Sloan, who represents Leona Allred, said the state was given official documents showing the woman to be 27 the day it raided the YFZ Ranch. On Tuesday, more than six weeks later, Allred's case was dismissed without the state receiving any additional information, Sloan told a Texas judge.
Sloan was informed of the impending decision Monday evening - but the state continued to tell Allred she could not participate in hearings on Tuesday for her two children because she was a minor. Allred turns 28 on June 2.
Allred had been warned, Sloan said, that as an adult she would not be allowed to remain at the Fort Worth shelter with her two children, including a 15-month-old - which a state attorney confirmed during the hearing.
But that apparently did not sit well with the judge hearing her case.
"For a month, six weeks, this mother has been with these children in this facility," he said, resetting the hearing for May 27 to give CPS time to work out an alternative.
Other judges also pressed CPS to accommodate the young mothers who have been in state custody for more than a month - something that one FLDS spokesman said was encouraging.
"Inch by inch and day by day, the truth is starting to come out about what is really happening here," said Rod Parker. "We find that parents haven't done anything wrong and the state can't articulate to any parent what the parents did."
Examples of the accommodations being made: Judge Jay Weatherby told CPS to allow Rebecca Allred, 20, and husband Wendell Jeffs, 23, to have a four-hour, unsupervised visit once a week. The couple have a 9-month-old son.
Judge Tom Gossett told CPS to find a way to reunite Louisa Barlow Jessop with two children who were with her until she gave birth on May 12. A day later, the state acknowledged she was 22; it left the newborn in her care but moved the younger children, ages 2 and 3.
A guardian ad litem "implored" Gossett to return the children, saying they have done poorly since being separated from their mother.
"The 3-year-old has become very withdrawn," Marie Clark said, while the couple's son "is not eating well or sleeping well."
The judge said it was "not acceptable" when told by a CPS worker there was no place that could take the mother and her children and gave the agency a week to resolve the issue. It may not take that long. Louisa Jessop, who participated in the hearing by telephone, said the shelter she is in will let them join her.
Asked by her husband, Dan, why the state had taken his children, Gossett said a "wide loop" had been thrown around the FLDS community that might not fit all parents. The state, he said, had concerns about the FLDS' beliefs, plural and underage marriages and "communal attitude."
If those allegations prove unfounded, "I'll be the first to apologize to you if it turns out you're not a person who has abused your child," the judge told Dan Jessop, who was in the courtroom. "There is no proof of abuse in your case. That gives you a leg up."
[email protected]

Gosh, where's CNN?

One of the news stations reported that the children in custody are being allowed to play with dogs for the first times in their lives. If anything, this time away from the compound will expose them to things they have so far been denied. When they get older, they may feel braver about leaving the cult, knowing the outside word can be a good place.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

One of the news stations reported that the children in custody are being allowed to play with dogs for the first times in their lives. If anything, this time away from the compound will expose them to things they have so far been denied. When they get older, they may feel braver about leaving the cult, knowing the outside word can be a good place.

And this attitude is EXACTLY what is wrong. You and the State of Texas do NOT get to decide to interfere in other peoples families because YOU think they are not doing what YOU want. In the States case they have been told TWICE now by two higher courts they had NO legal justification to take those children. Yet they are not returning them and the Courts are not forcing them too.

The CPS did NOT act in good faith. The Courts have agreed. They wantonly violated their legal duty and carried out a systematic removal of over 400 children from their legal parents simply because they disagreed with their religion. That is Unconstitutional in Texas and the US. And now they won't return them. And YOU think it is all GOOD. Guess what? the parents get to decide if their children play with animals not you nor the State.

Remind me again how one mistakes a 27 year old woman for a 17 year old, further explain how the State disputed the birth Certificate in good faith when it admitted weeks later with NO new evidence she was as old as she claimed? She should sue them for false imprisonment. As should every other woman held illegally as a minor that had LEGAL proof they were NOT minors.

 

[Shogun]

Facts not in evidence, that would be exactly why the State lost. You nor anyone else gets to dictate the Religion of anyone else in the US. The State of Texas CPS and the first Judge tried and continue to try and do JUST that.

When they purposefully held women with VALID birth Certificates and claimed they were minor for the sole purpose of seizing their unborn children once they were born they lost what ever supposed credibility they might have had at the start. A 22 year old an a 27 year old woman do not look like they are 16 or 17.

Whether you like it or not 16 and up CAN get married in Texas. And if they were married in another State with less restrictive laws it is also LEGAL. The State has at most only 5 girls that MAY be under age. They had no right and no authority to seize over 400 children. ANd then they had no right and NO authority to put them in Foster Care. Two superior Courts AGREED thay over reached any semblence of Authority.

5 girls that are STILL underage.

And, as a matter of fact, if your religion hinges on pedophelia then yes we DO have a say about the validity of your religion. The first amendment doesn't authorize some dirty 45 year old man to use the hymen of a 13 year old as the key to heaven. Sorry to burst your, uh, bubble.

And, I'd say the state DID have ample reason because had these nutters gone the way of David Koresh you'd find yourself having to defend a standoff situation for the sake of prepubescent polygamy.

 

[Shogun]

One of the news stations reported that the children in custody are being allowed to play with dogs for the first times in their lives. If anything, this time away from the compound will expose them to things they have so far been denied. When they get older, they may feel braver about leaving the cult, knowing the outside word can be a good place.

exactly. dogs may not be as holy as the cock of a dirty elder but perhaps there is hope that a cultish cycle is broken for a few among the kids.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

5 girls that are STILL underage.

And, as a matter of fact, if your religion hinges on pedophelia then yes we DO have a say about the validity of your religion. The first amendment doesn't authorize some dirty 45 year old man to use the hymen of a 13 year old as the key to heaven. Sorry to burst your, uh, bubble.

And, I'd say the state DID have ample reason because had these nutters gone the way of David Koresh you'd find yourself having to defend a standoff situation for the sake of prepubescent polygamy.

And the LAWS of the State of Texas are as clear today as they were the day they made the raid. The Higher Courts all agreed, CPS VIOLATED the law. At most 5 girls might have been in danger and could have been removed, NOT 450 children half of whom were 5 or younger. And definately not the 26 legal adults the State seized as children despite records to prove otherwise. Seized for ONE reason, so that their children could be born in State custody and then CPS would have jurisdiction of those babies.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

exactly. dogs may not be as holy as the cock of a dirty elder but perhaps there is hope that a cultish cycle is broken for a few among the kids.

In other words, the ENDS justify any MEANS? Does this mean we can start raiding other groups society is a little ashamed of too? Why I can think of thousands of children that can be seized for even more cause from drug addicted and alcoholic parents. Perhaps we should have a new law that every child MUST have a pet? You gonna be on the committee that decides which pets are acceptable and they can chose from as parents are forced to buy pets?

We can let the South go back to barring interracial marriage, like you think they should be able to bar legal gay marriage from Mass and California. And they can use that as a reason to seize those endangered kids as well. I can see all kind of application of this " cause we don't like them" rule of yours.

 

[Shogun]

so, what, FIVE LITTLE GIRLS MEAN NOTHING TO YOU WHEN YOUR FUCKING DOGMA IS AT STAKE?


good grief. Like I said, given the fdls birth records the STATE could not just cross their fingers and HOPE that it was just a "MERE FIVE" lives being used as a cum receptacle for lecherous old men. I don't hold the state guilty when their motivations could not predict what kind of bastion of child fucking scum they were dealing with.


But, hey, as long as ONLY 5 little girls have to learn about heaven the HARD, THROBBING way I guess it's ok.

 

[Shogun]

In other words, the ENDS justify any MEANS? Does this mean we can start raiding other groups society is a little ashamed of too? Why I can think of thousands of children that can be seized for even more cause from drug addicted and alcoholic parents. Perhaps we should have a new law that every child MUST have a pet? You gonna be on the committee that decides which pets are acceptable and they can chose from as parents are forced to buy pets?

We can let the South go back to barring interracial marriage, like you think they should be able to bar legal gay marriage from Mass and California. And they can use that as a reason to seize those endangered kids as well. I can see all kind of application of this " cause we don't like them" rule of yours.

In regards to the welfare of the child? you are goddamn right. ESPECIALLY if there is even ONE example of child molestation happening in a cult. Yes, if you can think of any other group that is fucking children, by all means, make your list and lets act. Perhaps we should make a law that NO ADULT CAN FUCK A CHILD. Oh wait... we already have that. Indeed, I could probably be on the committee to decide how much elderly genitalia should enter the vagina of a prepubescent girl in the name of god. You know, as long as there are LESS THAN 5 ITS OK though..



Funny, interracial unions ARE JUST LIKE SOME OLD BASTARD FUCKING A 13 YEAR OLD GIRL!

wow, dude. WOW.


You see, THIS is the reason Missouri kicked your fucking wacko cult out of it's state.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

so, what, FIVE LITTLE GIRLS MEAN NOTHING TO YOU WHEN YOUR FUCKING DOGMA IS AT STATE?


good grief. Like I said, given the fdls birth records the STATE could not just cross their fingers and HOPE that it was just a "MERE FIVE" lives being used as a cum receptacle for lecherous old men. I don't hold the state guilty when their motivations could not predict what kind of bastion of child fucking scum they were dealing with.


But, hey, as long as ONLY 5 little girls have to learn about heaven the HARD, THROBBING way I guess it's ok.

And yet for all your bluster and bullshit 2 HIGHER Courts reviewed the information and BOTH agreed CPS acted illegally. That they VIOLATED the law they were sworn to uphold. That they had no LEGAL grounds to seize the children.

Hell common sense told some of us the day it happened. STate law is CLEAR. CPS did not follow State law. CPS did not act in good faith at all. They seized adults with VALID LEGAL birth certificates, one of them 27 YEARS OLD, another 22. Birth certificates that , with out any more records they accepted weeks later. They did it for one reason, a child born of a ward of the State BECOMES a ward of the State. That is acting outside the law. It is not a good faith act.

They had a week to identify who might be at risk and that was 5 Girls. They only had the right to claim those 5 Girls should be removed. EVERY superior Court has agreed that is the case.

Your crap does not float. it sinks like a rock. The LAW is CLEAR and it was CLEAR when this started.

 

[Shogun]

yea, and if you had YOUR way there would still be FIVE little girls stuck in a cult having to use their prepubescent ass in order to attain salvation. I don't care what the two courts said about the legallity of the actions; NOW there are 5 less peachfuzz pussies to become fodder for your cult's salvation.


Further, had it not been for this wackjob cult's lack of birth records (GEE, I WONDER WHY THAT WAS THE CASE...) the state would not have had to overreact in taking ALL the kids. Now, I realize that you don't care that 5 girls HAVE been sexually molested for the sake of heaven. I get it. The root of your own faith requires you to accept SOME child molestation salvation. But, the state is not your scapegoat to cry martyr at. The FACT remains that there ARE child predators using your dogma to rationalize fucking kids. And, again, one has to wonder WHAT IS the amount of cases that would finally cause you to stop rationalizing your faith. 10? 20? Can you shrug off 50 bored out 13 year olds in the name of?

You are like a fucking serial rapist bemaoning his innocence, despite dna evidence, over some fuck up in the legal process. Some cop using the word ****** in the OJ case didn't make that knife wielding maniac less guilty and neither is your regurgitation of court decisions going to minimize FIVE CASES OF CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

In regards to the welfare of the child? you are goddamn right. ESPECIALLY if there is even ONE example of child molestation happening in a cult. Yes, if you can think of any other group that is fucking children, by all means, make your list and lets act. Perhaps we should make a law that NO ADULT CAN FUCK A CHILD. Oh wait... we already have that. Indeed, I could probably be on the committee to decide how much elderly genitalia should enter the vagina of a prepubescent girl in the name of god. You know, as long as there are LESS THAN 5 ITS OK though..



Funny, interracial unions ARE JUST LIKE SOME OLD BASTARD FUCKING A 13 YEAR OLD GIRL!

wow, dude. WOW.


You see, THIS is the reason Missouri kicked your fucking wacko cult out of it's state.

Ahh and there we have it, your usual religious rant. You do not get to tell me or anyone else what they can and can not believe. No matter how hard you might want to try. Further I belong to a Church not a cult. Well actually the word Cult applies to every religion in the broadest sense. That is why it has become a worthless word.

My Church does NOT condone the actions or policies or beliefs of the FLDS. But do pretend otherwise you religious hating asshole.

As for Missouri, the citizens of that State illegal attacked and murdered members of the Mormon Church and seized their leaders and their property. Property LEGALLY purchased and owned by the people of the Church. I can understand why YOU would think that is acceptable behavior. But lets put the shoe on the other foot shall we?

Using your logic, in a country run by religion and where the majority of the people support and believe it, the citizens would be legally justified in attacking YOU and seizing YOUR property, putting you in jail and then forming a lynch mob to hang you, failing that they could just assassinate you by gun fire.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

yea, and if you had YOUR way there would still be FIVE little girls stuck in a cult having to use their prepubescent ass in order to attain salvation. I don't care what the two courts said about the legallity of the actions; NOW there are 5 less peachfuzz pussies to become fodder for your cult's salvation.

Wrong you stupid shit. CPS could have followed the law and done the legal and correct thing. Then not only would they not look stupid now they would not have cost the State 30 MILLION dollars for acting illegally. They could have actually followed the law they are sworn to uphold.

Further since they had gained access and found potential problems they would have LEGALLY been able to return in the future with out any fake calls to ensure the children were still not in danger.