State Takes Legal Action to Seize $135K From Bakers Who Refused to Make Cake for Lesbian Couple

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Here is a good debate
The constitutionality(rather the lack thereof) of anti-discrimination laws and how they trample on American values such as personal liberty. No emotion needs to be involved, though. Emotion doesn't run a country :)

But since discrimination is not a recognized religious custom or practice and nobody forces you to open a business that serves the public, how are any of your "personal" liberties being violated? Explain please. :)
Why do you keep bringing up religion? We are talking about personal choices and opinions.
Like Kaz said, "conform or starve"! lol

Well, the government is not going to recognize discrimination for any reasons. Lol.
 
Here is a good debate
The constitutionality(rather the lack thereof) of anti-discrimination laws and how they trample on American values such as personal liberty. No emotion needs to be involved, though. Emotion doesn't run a country :)

But since discrimination is not a recognized religious custom or practice and nobody forces you to open a business that serves the public, how are any of your "personal" liberties being violated? Explain please. :)
Why do you keep bringing up religion? We are talking about personal choices and opinions.
Like Kaz said, "conform or starve"! lol
Our society, our rules. If you don't like them, vote with your feet.
 
That's not theoretical, that's American history.
hqdefault.jpg
yes. You are right. Society really hasn't progressed at all :thup: (while rolling eyes)
It's progressed because we passed laws that forced it to...
Could you stay consistent? Thanks
So, if I think a person is too fat and I own a grocery store, I should be able to refuse to serve that person? No, you're too fat and have had enough Twinkies, IMO. Get out! :D

Absolutely, and they should have the right to never come back and tell their friends about you.

The problem is you're hitting a brad with a sledge hammer and taking out lots of other innocents along the way. Government has no legitimate power to force citizens to do business with each other

Nobody is forcing you to open a public accommodation service business. It's as simple as that. If you cannot abide by the laws in your state (which, yes, they can set business practice laws), then you don't open a business, or not that type of business.

It's not just opening a business, it's working in one. So my choices are to starve or succumb to your tyranny. You're not a liberal, you're an authoritarian leftist

Nope it's about fair business practice and what is best for the state's interests and individual civil rights to be able to go into a store, take a bus, and shop where they choose without fear of being discriminated against. Now, personal issues, such as shoplifters, people who cause a commotion, etc., are another matter entirely. Those people are harming your business. You can ban them for such actions.

When did making life fair become a function of government?
 
You think that would really happen? lol
Its ok to introduce hypotheticals but at least make them believable :)
That's not theoretical, that's American history.
hqdefault.jpg
yes. You are right. Society really hasn't progressed at all :thup: (while rolling eyes)
It's progressed because we passed laws that forced it to...
Could you stay consistent? Thanks
I am being consistent. The reason you feel these laws are no longer necessary is because,............................................................wait for it,.................................................they worked...
Those unconstitutional laws were never "needed". You are NOT consistent. First you say we haven't progressed then you said they did. I dont think you even know what you believe in :thup:
 
People can be disgusted at whatever they want. I find some very fat people to be disgusting. Should I be able to refuse to serve fat people? You have to realize the trouble this would cause. The state wants a smooth operation of business and flow of people doing business. THAT is in the best interest of everyone and the state's own bottom line.
Comparing religious conviction to a repulsion to fat people is, not to offend, rather absurd. For one, there is no Constitutional right that protects your right to abhor fat people, but there is one that ensures people of the right to religious freedom and their right to practice that religion.
Many religions consider gluttony to be a sin....it's not a stretch to have some business person excuse their discrimination of fat people by stating it's against their religion.
 
yes. You are right. Society really hasn't progressed at all :thup: (while rolling eyes)
It's progressed because we passed laws that forced it to...
Could you stay consistent? Thanks
So, if I think a person is too fat and I own a grocery store, I should be able to refuse to serve that person? No, you're too fat and have had enough Twinkies, IMO. Get out! :D

Absolutely, and they should have the right to never come back and tell their friends about you.

The problem is you're hitting a brad with a sledge hammer and taking out lots of other innocents along the way. Government has no legitimate power to force citizens to do business with each other

Nobody is forcing you to open a public accommodation service business. It's as simple as that. If you cannot abide by the laws in your state (which, yes, they can set business practice laws), then you don't open a business, or not that type of business.

It's not just opening a business, it's working in one. So my choices are to starve or succumb to your tyranny. You're not a liberal, you're an authoritarian leftist

Nope it's about fair business practice and what is best for the state's interests and individual civil rights to be able to go into a store, take a bus, and shop where they choose without fear of being discriminated against. Now, personal issues, such as shoplifters, people who cause a commotion, etc., are another matter entirely. Those people are harming your business. You can ban them for such actions.

When did making life fair become a function of government?

Since, I don't know, the 1950s or 60s when anti-discrimination laws against black people were created? In the eyes of the law, all of us are the same. They don't recognize views that "some groups of people" are lesser citizens than others.
 
You make it really easy when you admit you'd lie and break the law. That shows a lack of ethics and integrity.
YOUR ethics and integrity! You're an asshole on the internet, not God.
How does you stating you would lie and continue to break the law mean that I have a lack of ethics and integrity? Do you not understand the meanings of words?
You are too stupid to understand it even after all this time. It's been said many times in many many ways that not all laws are moral or right. Laws outlawing homosexual acts, Jim Crow, segregation, on and on. To be completely oblivious to it while claiming laws equate to morality because they favor you at the moment is devoid of thought.

You're damn right I'll lie if some fag pulls some gaystapo crap on me. They'll need to prove I had the time for their project. Good luck with that.
So Public Accommodation laws, that have been in effect since the 60s, are like Nazis? The hyperbole police should give you a ticket.
That's isn't what I said. What I said was you're too fucking stupid to follow conversations.
Insults....the last resort of a failed argument.
 
That's not theoretical, that's American history.
hqdefault.jpg
yes. You are right. Society really hasn't progressed at all :thup: (while rolling eyes)
It's progressed because we passed laws that forced it to...
Could you stay consistent? Thanks
So, if I think a person is too fat and I own a grocery store, I should be able to refuse to serve that person? No, you're too fat and have had enough Twinkies, IMO. Get out! :D

Absolutely, and they should have the right to never come back and tell their friends about you.

The problem is you're hitting a brad with a sledge hammer and taking out lots of other innocents along the way. Government has no legitimate power to force citizens to do business with each other

Nobody is forcing you to open a public accommodation service business. It's as simple as that. If you cannot abide by the laws in your state (which, yes, they can set business practice laws), then you don't open a business, or not that type of business.

It's not just opening a business, it's working in one. So my choices are to starve or succumb to your tyranny. You're not a liberal, you're an authoritarian leftist

Nope it's about fair business practice and what is best for the state's interests and individual civil rights to be able to go into a store, take a bus, and shop where they choose without fear of being discriminated against. Now, personal issues, such as shoplifters, people who cause a commotion, etc., are another matter entirely. Those people are harming your business. You can ban them for such actions.
What are the states interests, exactly?
 
yes. You are right. Society really hasn't progressed at all :thup: (while rolling eyes)
It's progressed because we passed laws that forced it to...
Could you stay consistent? Thanks
So, if I think a person is too fat and I own a grocery store, I should be able to refuse to serve that person? No, you're too fat and have had enough Twinkies, IMO. Get out! :D

Absolutely, and they should have the right to never come back and tell their friends about you.

The problem is you're hitting a brad with a sledge hammer and taking out lots of other innocents along the way. Government has no legitimate power to force citizens to do business with each other

Nobody is forcing you to open a public accommodation service business. It's as simple as that. If you cannot abide by the laws in your state (which, yes, they can set business practice laws), then you don't open a business, or not that type of business.

It's not just opening a business, it's working in one. So my choices are to starve or succumb to your tyranny. You're not a liberal, you're an authoritarian leftist

Nope it's about fair business practice and what is best for the state's interests and individual civil rights to be able to go into a store, take a bus, and shop where they choose without fear of being discriminated against. Now, personal issues, such as shoplifters, people who cause a commotion, etc., are another matter entirely. Those people are harming your business. You can ban them for such actions.

When did making life fair become a function of government?
Life isn't fair, but making the rules we all live under fair is a function of government. The principle is known as Equality.
 
Thanks. GM to you! :)

It is not the same at all. You are not singling out an entire group of tax-paying American citizen, rather your example is due to a personal issue. Now, if you caught a person shoplifting from your store or a person came into your business and behaved in an unruly manner, that is your prerogative to "ban" such a person from your place of business, but you cannot say, "I will not serve THESE particular Americans because it goes against my religious beliefs." This is just not going to fly. For one thing, discrimination is not a recognized religious custom or practice.

People can be disgusted at whatever they want. I find some very fat people to be disgusting. Should I be able to refuse to serve fat people? You have to realize the trouble this would cause. The state wants a smooth operation of business and flow of people doing business. THAT is in the best interest of everyone and the state's own bottom line.
YES, it is. You don't think people not liking gays is personal? lol
You SHOULD be able to. No one should be forced to do ANYTHING as long as it doesn't trample on someone elses right. No one has a right to get a cake at a bakery. They have a RIGHT to ask for one. And frankly, just because our bloated, oversized govt says you have a right, you don't. Look at trhe definitions of liberty, free will etc. If you leave out emotion, you will get what im saying.

It has been determined that refusing service to certain groups of Americans based upon personal discriminatory beliefs is harmful, not only to that individual but also to the economy of the state. Otherwise, such laws wouldn't exist. Sorry, but you can't turn back the hands of time. It has been determined that personal religious beliefs do not trump the rights of others. You are still able to discriminate against whomever you wish in your personal life. You are still able to choose any religious belief to follow and practice it openly and without fear of government reprisal. It's another story when you wish to conduct a business in this manner because it effects others believe it or not.
It isn't only about religion. I have a buddy that is agnostic like me and he doesn't support gays. If he owned a bakery, he would kick them out. How would it effect the economy? The people wouldn't go somewhere else? They would just give up on a cake because of some asshole?
And if such discrimination was allowed and all bakers in a community felt that way, where does a gay couple get a cake for their wedding? And if such discrimination was allowed, what happens when other groups are shunned? Where do Jews go if all businesses suddenly decide they don't want their business? Or blacks? Or Muslims? PA laws serve a very useful function.
You think that would really happen? lol
Its ok to introduce hypotheticals but at least make them believable :)
Of course it could happen. It happened in Germany back in the 1930s.
 
yes. You are right. Society really hasn't progressed at all :thup: (while rolling eyes)
It's progressed because we passed laws that forced it to...
Could you stay consistent? Thanks
So, if I think a person is too fat and I own a grocery store, I should be able to refuse to serve that person? No, you're too fat and have had enough Twinkies, IMO. Get out! :D

Absolutely, and they should have the right to never come back and tell their friends about you.

The problem is you're hitting a brad with a sledge hammer and taking out lots of other innocents along the way. Government has no legitimate power to force citizens to do business with each other

Nobody is forcing you to open a public accommodation service business. It's as simple as that. If you cannot abide by the laws in your state (which, yes, they can set business practice laws), then you don't open a business, or not that type of business.

It's not just opening a business, it's working in one. So my choices are to starve or succumb to your tyranny. You're not a liberal, you're an authoritarian leftist

Nope it's about fair business practice and what is best for the state's interests and individual civil rights to be able to go into a store, take a bus, and shop where they choose without fear of being discriminated against. Now, personal issues, such as shoplifters, people who cause a commotion, etc., are another matter entirely. Those people are harming your business. You can ban them for such actions.
What are the states interests, exactly?

Economic interests, fair business practice, making sure income for the state and individual businesses flows uninterrupted by people's personal belief systems. :D
 
It's progressed because we passed laws that forced it to...
Could you stay consistent? Thanks
Absolutely, and they should have the right to never come back and tell their friends about you.

The problem is you're hitting a brad with a sledge hammer and taking out lots of other innocents along the way. Government has no legitimate power to force citizens to do business with each other

Nobody is forcing you to open a public accommodation service business. It's as simple as that. If you cannot abide by the laws in your state (which, yes, they can set business practice laws), then you don't open a business, or not that type of business.

It's not just opening a business, it's working in one. So my choices are to starve or succumb to your tyranny. You're not a liberal, you're an authoritarian leftist

Nope it's about fair business practice and what is best for the state's interests and individual civil rights to be able to go into a store, take a bus, and shop where they choose without fear of being discriminated against. Now, personal issues, such as shoplifters, people who cause a commotion, etc., are another matter entirely. Those people are harming your business. You can ban them for such actions.

When did making life fair become a function of government?

Since, I don't know, the 1950s or 60s when anti-discrimination laws against black people were created? In the eyes of the law, all of us are the same. They don't recognize views that "some groups of people" are lesser citizens than others.
Right on! However, the government is not a citizen :)
Institutional discrimination from the state is an abomination to America.
The right for a person to be an asshole is what made America great! Literally
 
YES, it is. You don't think people not liking gays is personal? lol
You SHOULD be able to. No one should be forced to do ANYTHING as long as it doesn't trample on someone elses right. No one has a right to get a cake at a bakery. They have a RIGHT to ask for one. And frankly, just because our bloated, oversized govt says you have a right, you don't. Look at trhe definitions of liberty, free will etc. If you leave out emotion, you will get what im saying.

It has been determined that refusing service to certain groups of Americans based upon personal discriminatory beliefs is harmful, not only to that individual but also to the economy of the state. Otherwise, such laws wouldn't exist. Sorry, but you can't turn back the hands of time. It has been determined that personal religious beliefs do not trump the rights of others. You are still able to discriminate against whomever you wish in your personal life. You are still able to choose any religious belief to follow and practice it openly and without fear of government reprisal. It's another story when you wish to conduct a business in this manner because it effects others believe it or not.
It isn't only about religion. I have a buddy that is agnostic like me and he doesn't support gays. If he owned a bakery, he would kick them out. How would it effect the economy? The people wouldn't go somewhere else? They would just give up on a cake because of some asshole?
And if such discrimination was allowed and all bakers in a community felt that way, where does a gay couple get a cake for their wedding? And if such discrimination was allowed, what happens when other groups are shunned? Where do Jews go if all businesses suddenly decide they don't want their business? Or blacks? Or Muslims? PA laws serve a very useful function.
You think that would really happen? lol
Its ok to introduce hypotheticals but at least make them believable :)
Of course it could happen. It happened in Germany back in the 1930s.
Yes, because we are 1930s Germany. SMH
 
Could you stay consistent? Thanks
Nobody is forcing you to open a public accommodation service business. It's as simple as that. If you cannot abide by the laws in your state (which, yes, they can set business practice laws), then you don't open a business, or not that type of business.

It's not just opening a business, it's working in one. So my choices are to starve or succumb to your tyranny. You're not a liberal, you're an authoritarian leftist

Nope it's about fair business practice and what is best for the state's interests and individual civil rights to be able to go into a store, take a bus, and shop where they choose without fear of being discriminated against. Now, personal issues, such as shoplifters, people who cause a commotion, etc., are another matter entirely. Those people are harming your business. You can ban them for such actions.

When did making life fair become a function of government?

Since, I don't know, the 1950s or 60s when anti-discrimination laws against black people were created? In the eyes of the law, all of us are the same. They don't recognize views that "some groups of people" are lesser citizens than others.
Right on! However, the government is not a citizen :)
Institutional discrimination from the state is an abomination to America.
The right for a person to be an asshole is what made America great! Literally

The state is not discriminating against anyone since the law applies equally to everyone. :)
 
It's progressed because we passed laws that forced it to...
Could you stay consistent? Thanks
Absolutely, and they should have the right to never come back and tell their friends about you.

The problem is you're hitting a brad with a sledge hammer and taking out lots of other innocents along the way. Government has no legitimate power to force citizens to do business with each other

Nobody is forcing you to open a public accommodation service business. It's as simple as that. If you cannot abide by the laws in your state (which, yes, they can set business practice laws), then you don't open a business, or not that type of business.

It's not just opening a business, it's working in one. So my choices are to starve or succumb to your tyranny. You're not a liberal, you're an authoritarian leftist

Nope it's about fair business practice and what is best for the state's interests and individual civil rights to be able to go into a store, take a bus, and shop where they choose without fear of being discriminated against. Now, personal issues, such as shoplifters, people who cause a commotion, etc., are another matter entirely. Those people are harming your business. You can ban them for such actions.
What are the states interests, exactly?

Economic interests, fair business practice, making sure income for the state and individual businesses flows uninterrupted by people's personal belief systems. :D
Hoe does economic interests flow into this argument? You think if someone got refused to be made a cake, they wouldn't go somewhere else? You think they would just give up? lol
 
That's not theoretical, that's American history.
hqdefault.jpg
yes. You are right. Society really hasn't progressed at all :thup: (while rolling eyes)
It's progressed because we passed laws that forced it to...
Could you stay consistent? Thanks
I am being consistent. The reason you feel these laws are no longer necessary is because,............................................................wait for it,.................................................they worked...
Those unconstitutional laws were never "needed". You are NOT consistent. First you say we haven't progressed then you said they did. I dont think you even know what you believe in :thup:
The laws are not unconstitutional, businesses are required to follow all kinds of regulations, and PA laws worked which is why you think they can be tossed now but they can't be because people like yourself still walk the earth. Got it now?
 
It's not just opening a business, it's working in one. So my choices are to starve or succumb to your tyranny. You're not a liberal, you're an authoritarian leftist

Nope it's about fair business practice and what is best for the state's interests and individual civil rights to be able to go into a store, take a bus, and shop where they choose without fear of being discriminated against. Now, personal issues, such as shoplifters, people who cause a commotion, etc., are another matter entirely. Those people are harming your business. You can ban them for such actions.

When did making life fair become a function of government?

Since, I don't know, the 1950s or 60s when anti-discrimination laws against black people were created? In the eyes of the law, all of us are the same. They don't recognize views that "some groups of people" are lesser citizens than others.
Right on! However, the government is not a citizen :)
Institutional discrimination from the state is an abomination to America.
The right for a person to be an asshole is what made America great! Literally

The state is not discriminating against anyone since the law applies equally to everyone. :)
No it doesn't.It isn't equal to EVERYONE
 
Uh wrong, automobile manufacturers wanted to sell more cars, so the bribed local and state governments into building roads. Doling out special favors to select businesses is not a legitimate function of the government. That's called "crony capitalism." Democrats claim to be against it, but they vote for it whenever presented with the opportunity.

Boy, you really are a fucking retard, aren't you?

Hey, guy, modern roads is what separates America from the Third World Countries. Me, I like the fact that there are nice roads between me and the places where I work, shop, and go on vacation.

I like the fact the trip that it took my dad ten hours to make I can get done in five.

Again, I really think that we should establish a Libertarian Reserve for people like you. You get exempted from taxes, but no roads, hospitals, internet, agriculture subsidies or any of the nasty evil socialism you guys hate so much.

I suspect you'd all resort to cannibalism in a year.

You got nailed to the wall claiming that business needed the roads, so then you changed your tune and told us how you support crony capitalism. You can't seem to make up your mind whether you support crony capitalism or you hate it.

The claim that roads wouldn't get built of government didn't build them is obvious horseshit. Most roads are local roads built by property developers. There's no reason they couldn't also build the major connectors. They just have to devise a way to make money off of them.
 
So, if I think a person is too fat and I own a grocery store, I should be able to refuse to serve that person? No, you're too fat and have had enough Twinkies, IMO. Get out! :D

Absolutely, and they should have the right to never come back and tell their friends about you.

The problem is you're hitting a brad with a sledge hammer and taking out lots of other innocents along the way. Government has no legitimate power to force citizens to do business with each other

Actually government does, but it needs a compelling government interest to get involved. The commerce clause does give them the power, but progressives want that power as absolute, and libertarians such as myself (small "l") want the power tempered against the rights of others.
It's been expanded to mean that. It was not the intent to micro-manage who we do or do not do business with.

When it comes to systemic discrimination, or discrimination when it comes to timely services, or necessary services, I can see a compelling government interest, either at the federal level or the state level.

What I can't see is the compelling government interest in this case.
 
yes. You are right. Society really hasn't progressed at all :thup: (while rolling eyes)
It's progressed because we passed laws that forced it to...
Could you stay consistent? Thanks
I am being consistent. The reason you feel these laws are no longer necessary is because,............................................................wait for it,.................................................they worked...
Those unconstitutional laws were never "needed". You are NOT consistent. First you say we haven't progressed then you said they did. I dont think you even know what you believe in :thup:
The laws are not unconstitutional, businesses are required to follow all kinds of regulations, and PA laws worked which is why you think they can be tossed now but they can't be because people like yourself still walk the earth. Got it now?
Yes, they are unconstitutional. The Constitution doesn't authorize the federal government to regulate business.
 
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